EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

[Voluntarist]

Rivian is slashing 10% of staff

Electric carmaker Rivian said on Wednesday that it will be cutting 10% of its salaried workforce as it deals with slowing EV demand.

The company made the announcement in its 2023 fourth quarter earnings call on Wednesday.

The Q4 financial report also revealed that despite making and delivering twice as many EVs in 2023 as in 2022, the company still saw a $5.4 billion loss for the year.

And for 2024, Rivian expects to produce around the same number of vehicles — about 57,000 — as it did in 2023. That's much lower than the 80,000 vehicles that analysts forecasted the company would be producing in 2024, according to Bloomberg.

...

This is the company's third round of layoffs in the last year and a half — it cut 6% of its staff in February 2023 and another 6% in July 2022, Business Insider previously reported.

"Rivian, like other automakers, is facing the music of economic uncertainty, consumers' waning enchantment with EVs, and strict federal tax credit rules," Insider Intelligence senior analyst Jacob Bourne said.

 

[GomerPile]

Your position is that we should just keep drilling for oil?

See? That's the most important part of this... If the market isn't self-sustaining, it's not "sustainable". The only way EV's are even a topic is because there are powerful interests that are stealing our wealth in order to offset all the financial losses. Government uses taxes and debt to prop up the industry. Institutional investors use the central-bank printed money. And the losses are STILL piling up!

Those losses manifest in financial losses, energy efficiency losses, environmental losses, and time losses. It's a complete misallocation of OUR resources! And idiots like Gomer fall for it all.

 

[CaptUSA]

Your position is that we should just keep drilling for oil?

First of all... There is no substitute for oil. Period. What the EV advocates are pushing for is oil PLUS all the battery materials.

Secondly, I push for any economical option as long as those who want it pay for it. Allow the market to decide. I have battery-powered tools that I use in my garage, but I bought them - I didn't have to steal from my neighbors with the foolish notion that I can feel better about myself because I care about the environment.

Your position is a joke. You took other people's money and want more of it. And you're trying to justify it to ease your guilt. Seriously, take an inward look and you'll see how pathetic that is.

 

[GomerPile]

There's no substitute for oil for SOME things. Transportation fuel is one of those things that can be replaced and done so with greater efficiency and less pollution (which does not matter to me at all BTW).

The earth receives 1300 watts per square meter and the sun is pretty reliable. Solar panel's EROI is 7-10, depending on what methodology you use for the analysis. In simple terms, invest 1 barrel of oil manufacturing PV panels and get back 7-10. Did you know that the EROI on the shale fields is only about 5:1? Did you also know that those fields are close to being played out? Where will the next wells be drilled?

Current PV panels are around 18% efficient. Newer perovskite-based PV panels start at 26% efficiency. The EROI numbers are likely to improve over time.

You have battery power tools, great so do I. Did you know that the cost of batteries used in those tools has dropped 90% in the last ten years? Why? Because the electric vehicle industry has massively scaled production. Yup, you are also sucking on the EV tit! Welcome aboard.


I would wager the taxes I have paid in my lifetime are 10X what you have paid. I have zero guilt about taking my $7500 EV tax credit (three times) from people too stupid to use it themselves.

First of all... There is no substitute for oil. Period. What the EV advocates are pushing for is oil PLUS all the battery materials.

Secondly, I push for any economical option as long as those who want it pay for it. Allow the market to decide. I have battery-powered tools that I use in my garage, but I bought them - I didn't have to steal from my neighbors with the foolish notion that I can feel better about myself because I care about the environment.

Your position is a joke. You took other people's money and want more of it. And you're trying to justify it to ease your guilt. Seriously, take an inward look and you'll see how pathetic that is.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

Your position is that we should just keep drilling for oil?

Do you seriously believe that there is an alternative? Do you have any idea how much of the modern world is built upon the access to gas and oil, and their byproducts? It seems that you don't just by the mere fact that you would even ask this question. I will whole-heartedly answer it - YES! YES! A thousand times YES! We should absolutely keep drilling for oil, and natural gas. Petroleum byproducts have exponentially improved human life in incalculable ways, and natural gas is only second to nuclear where it comes to "clean" energy (but of course we can't use nuclear because of... reasons, I guess?)

I'd be more than happy to take you out to a well pad where drilling and then fracking is taking place and let you actually see how sustainable and clean the process actually is.

 

[CaptUSA]

I have zero guilt about taking my $7500 EV tax credit (three times) from people too stupid to use it themselves.

And there you have it...

Forget all the other BS that you said in your post that has been refuted multiple time in this thread... You like wealth transfer from the lower incomes to the higher incomes. Another elitist asshole. Why are you at RPF?

 

[GomerPile]

NO!

The government has stolen hundreds of thousands in taxes from me....I'm clawing some of it back. I've still paid for more illegal wars, and people too lazy to get out and work than most people.

Nice try evading my point about PV panels.

And there you have it...

Forget all the other BS that you said in your post that has been refuted multiple time in this thread... You like wealth transfer from the lower incomes to the higher incomes. Another elitist $#@!. Why are you at RPF?

 

[CaptUSA]

NO!

The government has stolen hundreds of thousands in taxes from me....I'm clawing some of it back. I've still paid for more illegal wars, and people too lazy to get out and work than most people.

Nice try evading my point about PV panels.

You could teach a master class in rationalization. You are literally stealing the wealth of our children and grandchildren for your toys, but whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

And I didn't evade the PV stuff... it's been hashed and rehashed so many times in this thread. But I'm aware that you're using that to hide your unconscious shame.

 

[GomerPile]

We've spend 100 years building a society that runs on oil. Oil will likely be used for another 100 years. Keep drilling; in fact, if we don't, society will collapse.

All I'm saying is that we should use oil wisely. If you can achieve a 9:1 EROI using solar panels, then we need to explore that option. If we can use some of that oil to build fission reactors, then we should explore that as well. If you care about nuclear waste then build thorium reactors....no problem. I'm saying leverage oil into something that makes more energy rather than waste it.

Do you really think its ok to waste 75% of every gallon of gasoline produced? That's pissing away $2.25 every 30ish miles!

If you spent $3000 on a 3kw solar array you could power your car for 36 miles every day for 12-20 years. The government can't stop the sun, you are not subject to the whims of extremists who were funded by the CIA using YOUR tax dollars. A few thousand bucks and some DIY skills can buy you freedom of movement for 20 years!

Do you seriously believe that there is an alternative? Do you have any idea how much of the modern world is built upon the access to gas and oil, and their byproducts? It seems that you don't just by the mere fact that you would even ask this question. I will whole-heartedly answer it - YES! YES! A thousand times YES! We should absolutely keep drilling for oil, and natural gas. Petroleum byproducts have exponentially improved human life in incalculable ways, and natural gas is only second to nuclear where it comes to "clean" energy (but of course we can't use nuclear because of... reasons, I guess?)

I'd be more than happy to take you out to a well pad where drilling and then fracking is taking place and let you actually see how sustainable and clean the process actually is.

 

[GomerPile]

You cant refute what you don't understand.....the world needs ditch diggers to run conduit for my solar farm...you're safe.

You could teach a master class in rationalization. You are literally stealing the wealth of our children and grandchildren for your toys, but whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.

And I didn't evade the PV stuff... it's been hashed and rehashed so many times in this thread. But I'm aware that you're using that to hide your unconscious shame.

 

[CaptUSA]

You cant refute what you don't understand.....the world needs ditch diggers to run conduit for my solar farm...you're safe.

You realize I was an expert in energy policy specializing in electrification up until last year?? If you weren't so lazy, you could go back through the thread and see my credentials. Pretty sure I understand. I'm no ditch digger - I just won't rationalize the damage being done to them by people like you.

 

[GomerPile]

You were not very good at it from what I can tell. I'm an EE, lived off grid for years, and help others do the same.

In fact, today there is a guy in VT who owns a very old Nissan Leaf who has not spent a single dollar fueling his car in over 4 years. We built his system from a pallet of PV panels removed from service, some surplus prismatic LifePo4 cells, and an inverter....cost a few thousand bucks and some beer. When the power goes out, which is often, he still has power. Of course, he owns a generator, but it hasn't been used in so long that it won't start.

Solar and battery prices are cheaper today. The electronics to make it all work are half the price with twice the features.

You realize I was an expert in energy policy specializing in electrification up until last year?? If you weren't so lazy, you could go back through the thread and see my credentials. Pretty sure I understand. I'm no ditch digger - I just won't rationalize the damage being done to them by people like you.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

We've spend 100 years building a society that runs on oil. Oil will likely be used for another 100 years. Keep drilling; in fact, if we don't, society will collapse.

All I'm saying is that we should use oil wisely. If you can achieve a 9:1 EROI using solar panels, then we need to explore that option. If we can use some of that oil to build fission reactors, then we should explore that as well. If you care about nuclear waste then build thorium reactors....no problem. I'm saying leverage oil into something that makes more energy rather than waste it.

Do you really think its ok to waste 75% of every gallon of gasoline produced? That's pissing away $2.25 every 30ish miles!

If you spent $3000 on a 3kw solar array you could power your car for 36 miles every day for 12-20 years. The government can't stop the sun, you are not subject to the whims of extremists who were funded by the CIA using YOUR tax dollars. A few thousand bucks and some DIY skills can buy you freedom of movement for 20 years!

I'm in favor of finding alternative sources of energy. That said, solar and wind - the 2 principle alternative power sources - are at this point notoriously unreliable, particularly when it comes to the ability to store the energy produced in batteries. Nevertheless, I'm definitely in favor of humanity finding other ways to produce energy.

But energy isn't even half the battle when it comes to oil and natural gas, and that seems to be what no one who protests against the use of those natural resources seems to understand. For example, these "Just Stop Oil" children who go around gluing themselves to pieces of roadway wouldn't be able to have the glue, nor the bloody asphalt, if it weren't for petroleum! They'd have to be smashing their hands under cobblestones otherwise. It seems they have no idea what the modern world has given them.

This fevered effort to stop using oil and natural gas byproducts is an absurdity, and one that thankfully won't any time soon actually be implemented by the powers that be.

 

[acptulsa]

In fact, today there is a guy in VT who owns a very old Nissan Leaf who has not spent a single dollar fueling his car in over 4 years. We built his system from a pallet of PV panels removed from service, some surplus prismatic LifePo4 cells, and an inverter...

Does he do any driving? He obviously doesn't commute to a day job, because there's not enough daylight left after five to charge more than a cell phone, this time of year.

 

[GomerPile]

I thought you were the expert? You should know that the minimum peak sunlight is 3 hours in VT...and yes, you can harvest a lot of power in the winter. The more calendar days away from the minimum, the more energy you can harvest.

He's a retired veteran who drives about 8 miles a day (to and from breakfast). Once or twice a week, he makes a market run and medical appointments. The battery in his Leaf is in bad shape, fully charged, it might deliver 50-60 miles of range (he did not pay very much for it).

The panels he bought were 10 year old units rated at 220 watts. When we set them up, they were producing about 150 watts each. They came with micro-inverters that were not working well on the reduced output. We tried pairing a single inverter with two panels. This was plenty enough power for a level 1 charger. The original system did not have a battery buffer, so the charger had to deal with fluctuating power (problematic). He eventually acquired an OEM charger from a salvage yard. The Leaf OEM charger is very well designed and handles poor-quality power nicely. On a good day (Sept/Oct) it was possible to harvest ~4kwh of power (10-15 miles of driving).

We redesigned the system about three years ago to use an Inverter/charger and 5kwh of prismatic Lifepo4 cells (recycled cells). The MPPT charger harvests a lot more power than the old micro-inverters for some reason. We reconfigured the panels into ~120v strings, which likely helped the MPPT charger do its thing.

We added a BMS with two relay outputs set to trip at roughly 2 and 3 kwh remaining in the pack (he tweaks this constantly because he has nothing better to do). The system turns the car charger off at the 2kwh level and back on at 3 (~1kwh hysteresis). The idea is to retain a small buffer to operate things in the house while dumping most of the power into the car. There is a bypass switch that you hit on rainy days so all the power is put into the battery bank.

The average person drives 30 miles per day. With better equipment, it would be very easy to handle that use case with PV panels. Even if you had to collect power during the day and dump it into the car at night, the batteries are pretty cheap....they even mount in 19-inch server racks.

Does he do any driving? He obviously doesn't commute to a day job, because there's not enough daylight left after five to charge more than a cell phone, this time of year.

 

[acptulsa]

You're the one pretending to be an expert. You're a dilettante. Oh, I can get a retiree to breakfast. Real commuters are SOL. Uber drivers will soon have to own five cars to work one full shift. But you don't care what hardships this regulatory insanity causes people, as long as they aren't you.

Just another sociopath. How boring.

 

[fisharmor]

You have battery power tools, great so do I. Did you know that the cost of batteries used in those tools has dropped 90% in the last ten years? Why? Because the electric vehicle industry has massively scaled production. Yup, you are also sucking on the EV tit! Welcome aboard.

That's simply untrue.

The sad fact of the battery situation, that nobody on the "pro" side will ever face, is that if someone cracks the battery problem, electric cars are going to be the absolute last place they go.

The first place they're going to go is into cargo ships, factories, office parks, and other big-money commercial applications that are centralized and where someone is going to save real money by making the shift immediately. Once there is power smoothing for solar, the rooftops of all the large square footage commercial buildings in the US are going to get paved over with panels, because there will be an actually feasible way to use solar at that point.

The next place they're going to go is going to be high-end laptops and cellphones so people working oil rigs in the middle of nowhere can carry around less stuff. After that will come all the consumer electronics because there's simply more money on the table meeting people's need to have a laptop carry a charge longer than 2 hours than there is a market demand for electric cars.

After all that there might be a market for making a viable long-haul electric truck, where there is already a lot of parking and waiting involved in their use.

And you can tell this because this is exactly what has happened with battery improvements. They went into smaller scale applications like consumer electronics first before someone stacked tons of them into EVs. You have this exactly backward.

And you can tell the battery tech is still not viable for EVs because we haven't paved over the roofs of all the crappy concrete block buildings in the country with PV's yet. When that happens, that will be your signal that EVs are finally viable.

And even then there will be holdouts because a significant number of us understand that at least 60% of the features of the current EVs for sale are features that we not only don't want, but we actively refuse to have in a car we own. I'm totally game to own an EV - but if look under the hood and I don't see a steering column, we're not going any farther in the discussion. If I can't trace an unbroken hydraulic line from the brake pedal to the cylinder to the lines to each individual caliper, we're done. We're not even getting as far as the NSA tracking and the remote kill switches and the self-driving if it comes without a direct connection between the controls and the wheels.

I have zero guilt about taking my $7500 EV tax credit (three times) from people too stupid to use it themselves.

Great. I have zero guilt about taking medicaid for my daughter. Take all the tax credits. If you don't take them it keeps this crap solvent longer.
The question is, what kind of guilt are you going to feel when a fundamental safety flaw in your EV kills a teenager? You can't be unaware of them.
If it happens to someone in my family, I'm not going to consider how many taxes you've paid in my calculation of whether to use the state to go after your ass. Because neither the state nor the EV manufacturer is going to be there for you, and they're not going to leave me a choice.

 

[GomerPile]

its not? Please explain.

This data about battery cost falling 90% is easy to locate (EDIT this link would show 80%+):
https://about.bnef.com/blog/lithium-ion-battery-pack-prices-hit-record-low-of-139-kwh/

Pepsi is already using electric trucks BTW:
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-dominates-real-world-tests-during-run-on-less-event/

That's simply untrue.

The sad fact of the battery situation, that nobody on the "pro" side will ever face, is that if someone cracks the battery problem, electric cars are going to be the absolute last place they go.

The first place they're going to go is into cargo ships, factories, office parks, and other big-money commercial applications that are centralized and where someone is going to save real money by making the shift immediately. Once there is power smoothing for solar, the rooftops of all the large square footage commercial buildings in the US are going to get paved over with panels, because there will be an actually feasible way to use solar at that point.

The next place they're going to go is going to be high-end laptops and cellphones so people working oil rigs in the middle of nowhere can carry around less stuff. After that will come all the consumer electronics because there's simply more money on the table meeting people's need to have a laptop carry a charge longer than 2 hours than there is a market demand for electric cars.

After all that there might be a market for making a viable long-haul electric truck, where there is already a lot of parking and waiting involved in their use.

 

[fisharmor]

its not? Please explain.

Yup, you are also sucking on the EV tit! Welcome aboard.

I'm sorry if you didn't track this - but the bold & enlarged part is what is factually untrue, as I have already demonstrated.
We all bought cordless drills before Tesla was even founded, and we all upgraded to Lithium Ion models before they got any charging stations installed. Teslas had their first battery fire long after Samsung did.

We are absolutely not sucking on the EV tit. EV demand may be helping to reduce production costs that were already plummeting but your statement that we're benefiting from EVs being in the market is at best stretching the truth.

 

[WarriorLiberty]

The Mainstream News Media doesn't even want to discus the costs of replacing an EV battery.

Which is another red flag.