Embrace the FairTax

[Black Dude]

Dr. Paul needs to embrace the FairTax.
That is great that we are going to get rid of the income tax by having less spending, but that is a long term goal, not a short term goal. When he talks about getting rid of the income tax, people don't realize he is talking long term, and he is looked at as a quacker jack.
The FairTax is the best short-term riddance of the income tax. Not to mention, the FairTax gets rid of corporate income and payroll taxes too (not just individual income taxes). That will lower the cost of producing goods and will bring jobs back home and increase our exports.
A Dr. Paul presidency with the FairTax is not the same thing as a Huckabee presidency with the FairTax. Under Dr. Paul, our spending will be cut dramatically, and the FairTax rate will drop significantly. Under Huckabee, the FairTax rate might eventually increase from all of the overseas spending and the entitlement programs.

 

[Ilhaguru]

He said he would vote for it if it came up because it would be an improvement. But his goal is to eliminate taxes.

 

[robertwerden]

NO. he does not, the best tax is the way he has it planned. The fair tax has tons of legit problems that the designers lie about including candidates who support it.

 

[WilliamC]

A poor second choice but better than what we have now.

My fear is that without an outright repeal of the 16th amendment we'd end up with an income tax AND a national sales tax.

 

[han_solo]

The only FAIR tax is the one that does not exist. We didn't have federal income taxes in this country until 1913, and we did just fine. Your grandparents didn't have taxes....it has not been that long ago, we CAN do it again.

 

[AisA1787]

A poor second choice but better than what we have now.

My fear is that without an outright repeal of the 16th amendment we'd end up with an income tax AND a national sales tax.

+1

 

[Black Dude]

NO. he does not, the best tax is the way he has it planned. The fair tax has tons of legit problems that the designers lie about including candidates who support it.

Dr. Paul isn't going to be in office for 15 years. We MIGHT be able to get rid of the personal income tax in his term(s), but it is unlikely. Then what are we left with?... Low personal income taxes, with corporate income taxes and payroll taxes (medicare and social security taxes) still in existence, and the 16th amendment not yet repealed. Cutting spending is not an overnight process. It is a transitional phase. The FairTax is a better alternative to the income tax while our out of control spending is tamed. I agree that we need to cut spending and the size of government, but in the meantime, pass the FairTax!

 

[Black Dude]

A poor second choice but better than what we have now.

My fear is that without an outright repeal of the 16th amendment we'd end up with an income tax AND a national sales tax.

The FairTax repeals the 16th amendment. That is the point of it.

 

[ItsTime]

the only "fair" tax IS NO TAX!

 

[VoluntaryMan]

Back in the 1980s, there was a movement among Democratic legislators to go to a "Value-added Tax" (VAT), which is a euphemism for a hidden sales tax, a sales tax that is hidden within the price of goods and services, instead of added to the price at the counter (point of sale or POS). The VAT was supposed to be used in addition to the income tax, so that revenues could be raised more or less covertly, or at least beneath the radar of the masses, not unlike the inflation tax. In fact, Gov. Jerry Brown, Jr., back in the 1992 presidential campaign, proposed a combination national sales tax and federal income tax of exactly 23% (sound familiar?) each. During his campaign, Gov. Brown admitted that these percentages would not be fixed, but could increase, as the federal gov't required more revenue.

For the reasons stated above, I have always been suspicious of any national sales tax proposal, even when the people pushing it promise us that it's intended as a "substitute" for the current income tax system. In recent years, it's been a segment off Republicans and Libertarian promoting the idea of a national sales tax, but they can't even get their numbers straight: they tell us it will be a 23% (huh?) sales tax, but any idiot can figure our that it's really 30% (23% of total paid, but 30% of price, which is how every other sales tax is calculated: percentage of price), and that's just their initial figure. Who's to say it won't increase to 50% or 70%? What's even worse is that the so-called "fair" tax scheme, that sHmUCKABEE has signed onto, would actually get every American hooked on receiving regular monthly checks, because you'd have to apply to receive a monthly federal rebate of a portion of the sales taxes you already paid, just to avoid being completely screwed. Also, if all of this isn't bad enough, there's no guaratee that accepting a national sales tax is going to make the income tax go away. We could end up saddled with both, as was originally planned by many legislators (like Ted Kennedy).

What it really comes down to, though, is this: the "fair" tax plan is the establishment's plan B, because so many people are waking up to the fraud of the current income tax system. More and more people are successfully challenging the IRS in court, and the establishment is getting nervous. If too many people awaken to the fact that they've been deceived and robbed, before the establishment is able to institute an alternate scheme, we will end up with neither.

Is a sales tax, in theory, a better idea than an income tax? In theory, yes, but the one the Huckster as signed onto is horrifying. Besides, both systems (what we'd be likely to end up with) is worse than either, and neither is better than either. I vote neither.

A parting word on Huckabee: the GOP doesn't really want him as the nominee, because they know he's a general election loser, but they want Paul (a general election winner) even less, because he will oust the neocons from party leadership positions. The neocons can survive a Huckabee loss, but can't survive a Paul victory, which is why, if they were able to succeed in getting Dr. Paul out of the race, Huckabee's star would quickly fade, in favor of a more general election friendly candidate. The Huckster's Herd believe they are riding a dark horse, but they are really riding a stalking horse; they just don't know it, yet.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=88091&highlight=jerry+brown

 

[WilliamC]

The FairTax repeals the 16th amendment. That is the point of it.

I'll believe it when I see it.

The 16th amendment can only be repealed by another Constitutional amendment, like had to happen with Prohibition.

Passing the "Fair Tax" won't do it.

 

[Black Dude]

The only FAIR tax is the one that does not exist. We didn't have federal income taxes in this country until 1913, and we did just fine. Your grandparents didn't have taxes....it has not been that long ago, we CAN do it again.

I'm not disputing that. We can cut spending low enough. But we can't do it overnight, and probably not in Dr. Paul's terms in office. It might be possible for us to get rid of the personal income tax, but not the corporate income taxes and payroll taxes... The FairTax needs to be passed for the transition period.

 

[Black Dude]

BJ Lawson agrees with me

http://blog.lawsonforcongress.com/category/eliminate-the-income-tax/

 

[Fox McCloud]

A poor second choice but better than what we have now.

My fear is that without an outright repeal of the 16th amendment we'd end up with an income tax AND a national sales tax.

+1 from me too.

I'm sorry, but I don't view a 30% sales tax on everything I buy an improvement over the income tax....sure, I have control over what I purchase, but it'll greatly discourage me from purchasing items, as I'm a very conservative kind of guy, fiscally.

Imagine purchasing a $19.99 DVD movie....let's assume your State sales tax is 7%....ok, so you'd only pay $21.39 for this movie regularly...with the Fair Tax, you'd have to pay that (30%) and your State sales tax (7%)...grand total for that DVD now? $27.81

Yeah, I won't be paying income tax each year, but it'll REALLY make me think twice about purchasing an item.

and automobiles? a 20,000 automobile would be nearly 28,000 after the fair tax+sales tax.

My guess is that it would cripple the amount of buying people are doing...though, admittingly, that IS needed.

still, I can just see it now, we'll end up having the Fair Tax, State Sales Tax, and the Federal Income Tax.

if that happens, and you keep up your current purchasing habits, it'll effective be like Sweden, where (IIRC) 50% of your income goes towards the Federal government.

http://blog.lawsonforcongress.com/category/eliminate-the-income-tax/

good for you an him....I'm suddenly going to support something because Lawson does now....

[/major sarcasm]

 

[Black Dude]

I'll believe it when I see it.

The 16th amendment can only be repealed by another Constitutional amendment, like had to happen with Prohibition.

Passing the "Fair Tax" won't do it.

You are right. I guess we'll have to be willing to trust Dr. Paul to get it repealed. Here is what they say about it at the FairTax website:


Could we end up with both the FairTax and an income tax?

No current supporter of the FairTax would support the FairTax unless the entire income tax is repealed. Moreover, concurrent with the repeal of the income tax, a constitutional amendment repealing the 16th Amendment and prohibiting an income tax will be pushed through Congress for ratification by the states (filed as HJR 16 in the 110th Congress).

 

[Eponym_mi]

I oppose any "Fair Tax" proposal that:

1. Does not repeal the 16th amendment
2. Permits a sales tax greater than 10%

Short of that, Fair Tax is BS.

 

[Fox McCloud]

You are right. I guess we'll have to be willing to trust Dr. Paul to get it repealed. Here is what they say about it at the FairTax website:


Could we end up with both the FairTax and an income tax?

No current supporter of the FairTax would support the FairTax unless the entire income tax is repealed. Moreover, concurrent with the repeal of the income tax, a constitutional amendment repealing the 16th Amendment and prohibiting an income tax will be pushed through Congress for ratification by the states (filed as HJR 16 in the 110th Congress).

the 16th amendment was never passed....along with several other amendments; the Federal Reserve Act was passed under very suspicious circumstances.....

If they can do that, they can certainly promise those who support the Fair Tax and support the repeal of the income tax that "oh, if we can get the Fair Tax passed now, it'll be a big boost for repealing the 16th amendment".

They'll fall for it, then the repealing of the 16th amendment will be dropped like a hot potato, and you'll be stuck with two PITA taxes.

I oppose any "Fair Tax" proposal that:

1. Does not repeal the 16th amendment
2. Permits a sales tax greater than 10%

Short of that, Fair Tax is BS.

Amen to that! A consumption tax (what the Fair Tax is) is really good for society, as long as it's really low (I'd want to go lower than 10%, around 5%, but that's me)...it disinclines people to spend so foolishly, but it doesn't generate massive income for the government to get greedy with.

 

[specsaregood]

If they can do that, they can certainly promise those who support the Fair Tax and support the repeal of the income tax that "oh, if we can get the Fair Tax passed now, it'll be a big boost for repealing the 16th amendment".

They'll fall for it, then the repealing of the 16th amendment will be dropped like a hot potato, and you'll be stuck with two PITA taxes.

Bingo. It is funny when people that don't trust the government, end up trusting the government.

 

[Black Dude]

+1 from me too.

I'm sorry, but I don't view a 30% sales tax on everything I buy an improvement over the income tax....sure, I have control over what I purchase, but it'll greatly discourage me from purchasing items, as I'm a very conservative kind of guy, fiscally.

Imagine purchasing a $19.99 DVD movie....let's assume your State sales tax is 7%....ok, so you'd only pay $21.39 for this movie regularly...with the Fair Tax, you'd have to pay that (30%) and your State sales tax (7%)...grand total for that DVD now? $27.81

Yeah, I won't be paying income tax each year, but it'll REALLY make me think twice about purchasing an item.

and automobiles? a 20,000 automobile would be nearly 28,000 after the fair tax+sales tax.

My guess is that it would cripple the amount of buying people are doing...though, admittingly, that IS needed.

still, I can just see it now, we'll end up having the Fair Tax, State Sales Tax, and the Federal Income Tax.

if that happens, and you keep up your current purchasing habits, it'll effective be like Sweden, where (IIRC) 50% of your income goes towards the Federal government.



good for you an him....I'm suddenly going to support something because Lawson does now....

[/major sarcasm]

Under a Huckabee FairTax plan, the sales tax would be 30% (23% inclusive). Under Dr. Paul, it wouldn't. Plus, when corporate income taxes and payroll taxes are gone, the costs of goods will drop 15-20%. THEN add in the 30%.

$20 for a DVD after corporate income taxes and payroll taxes are gone = $16-$17 for the DVD
Add 30% tax = $20.80-$22.10... that comes to $21.92-$23.29 when State sales taxes are included. That compares to $21.40 after State sales taxes under our current system. Wouldn't you rather pay $22 for your DVD instead of $21.40 if that means you don't pay an income tax, more jobs come to the U.S. because the corporate and payroll taxes are gone, and all the money that illegal immigrants and tourists spend also get taxed? Oh yeah, and that is with the 30% tax. With Dr. Paul as our president, it could go down to 15% or less pretty quick.

 

[fmontez]

The problem is the nation is bankrupt; we need to slash the budget, cut corporate taxes, and then we have a choice... we can raise income taxes or abolish social security and medicare (in staggered steps of course.) There isn't a lot of wiggle room here, those are the only two real choices. Income or fair tax, we need to decide if we are going to be socialists and go bankrupt or freemen.