Eliminating minimum wage would help the very poor!

[2young2vote]

It would increase unemployment. As long as people can choose between having a low paying job or living on unemployment, they would choose unemployment. The difference is that the average pay for low income jobs would most likely be much less than what they could receive from unemployment pay if there was no minimum wage. The government would be competing with the private sector and the private sector would always lose because they cannot compete against something that can print its own money.

Of course I think the minimum wage should be zero. I work in the school cafeteria and make minimum wage and I can't help but think this is a job that should be about $1.00 a hour. The difference is people like us would go out and get a job while the freeloaders would sit and do nothing, we are the minority.

 

[ILUVRP]

with over 16% of our ecomony medical , that is the field to get into.

bottom line if we want to improve america , get people off of unemployment and food stamps , raise min wage to $9-10/hr , in this world you get what you pay for , give someone a good wage and you will get 100% out of him.

i see so many people making min wage , their car breaks down , they take it in to just get it checked to see what is wrong , its $75 just to look at it , to work on the car its anywhere between $60-125 per hour.

crazy world.

 

[Massachusetts]

with over 16% of our ecomony medical , that is the field to get into.

bottom line if we want to improve america , get people off of unemployment and food stamps , raise min wage to $9-10/hr , in this world you get what you pay for , give someone a good wage and you will get 100% out of him.

i see so many people making min wage , their car breaks down , they take it in to just get it checked to see what is wrong , its $75 just to look at it , to work on the car its anywhere between $60-125 per hour.

crazy world.

http://www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson/

Read chapter 18 and then come back.

 

[The Free Hornet]

If everybody was willing to take say a 20% pay cut we could reduce the number of unemployed since that would lower the cost of labor. Anybody going to volunteer?

How so? A job is not a paycheck. A job is productive activity that results in payment. Payment without the productivity is not a job.

Had you proposed, "if everybody was willing to work 20% less...", then it may be possible that a demand for productive labor increases.

If you want to reduce the number of unemployed, END THE WAR ON WORKING:

1) End the war on drugs, allow all to enter the workforce as farmers, transporters, refiners, distributors, sellers, etc. They will pay taxes and market forces would favor those who follow the law.

2) End the war on prostition, gambling - same reasons as above.

3) End the war on professionalism - end state licensing. You may know one thousand times more about the law than I, but without the proper credentials, I cannot legally employ your services. And you don't even have to cut people up like a doctor.

4) Like the OP says, END THE MINIMUM WAGE. If you are earning the minimum wage, there exists a mandate that everybody else's time is worth equal to or more than your time. If you work an hour and want to employ someone less skilled for one hour, you have a wash at best. No net benefit. Worse yet, taxes, insurance, liability, all insure that you cannot deploy your money to economically to hire people because your inflow is at the minimum wage level. How can this possibly be good for you?

The minimum wage hurts the poorest the hardest.

 

[InTradePro]

 

[The Free Hornet]

Of course I think the minimum wage should be zero.

Zero is least amount we can pay somebody and the minimum wage laws ensure that more people get exactly that - zero.

If the economic illiterates are so fucking worried about the poor, why not stick with "negative income tax" BS like food stamps, welfare, state-mandated unemployment insurance???

Why mandate how people engage with each other productively? Just be the welfare statists that you are and leave the rest of us the fuck alone?

The question is rhetorical as I will now answer it. The minimum wage laws are not unlike the racist origins of unions in this nation. It has always been about benefiting one group (politically connected, often working class at tradesman or guild levels) at the expense of another (generally the working poor, not politically connected).

If you think the rich or 1%ers give a shit about the price of burgers at Wendy's going up, you're wrong. It will have no affect (the Wendy's might go out of business, but who in the 1% cares???). Raise the minimum wage and you only create barriers to entry for any potential competitors to the 1%ers. Trust me.

 

[nobody's_hero]

Eliminating the minimum wage would not be very helpful in reducing poverty unless you could find a way to stop inflation dead in its tracks.

Think about it:

The reason we have a minimum wage is because of inflation. The Fed and Congress realized that if we did not have a minimum wage, people would quickly realize that their quality of life is decreasing as the purchasing power of their dollar decreases. It's no coincidence that before the Federal Reserve act, there was no federal minimum wage (around that time, some states had enacted minimum wages for women to try to bring about equality, but it wasn't a consquence of a central bank mismanaging the money supply).

So if you cut out the minimum wage now, you'd have more people getting paid less by their employers, as all the while everyone (the workers and the employers, and even the remaining unemployed) struggles to stay afloat in a sea of inflation. It would hardly put a dent in the problem.

I say cut the head off the snake first before you try to cut off the rattle. End the Fed and then we won't need a minimum wage.

 

[JasonC]

It's price fixing.. Price fixing causes shortages..

Anywho,... the largest misconception in the world is that if the government doesn't do something, whatever that thing is will not be done at all.

 

[The Free Hornet]

Eliminating the minimum wage would not be very helpful in reducing poverty unless you could find a way to stop inflation dead in its tracks.

Poverty is always relative and will always exist. It can't be eliminated because it is a moving target.

The reason we have a minimum wage is because of inflation.

That is not a bad theory and tie-in with the Fed. Here is what I found from a link off of Wikipedia (it says you are wrong):

Williams makes the case that that's exactly what happened to black Americans in the years after World War II, when we first had an effective minimum wage. The employment rate of black Americans fell, and their economic well-being has never recovered since. The motives behind the minimum wage legislation were mixed. Some Congressmen voted for it for explicitly racist motives. Others were thinking of protecting their constituents from competition. Some believed the government could give everybody a free lunch. But the results were devastating, whatever the causes.

http://www.conservativebookclub.com/blogs/and-rightly-so.asp

So if you cut out the minimum wage now, you'd have more people getting paid less by their employers, as all the while everyone (the workers and the employers, and even the remaining unemployed) struggles to stay afloat in a sea of inflation.

If we decriminalized working - what I propose - we would have fewer people unemployed and our money would go further. Having to fight the Fed first, while admirable, is unnecessary (to improve this particular aspect). Fight the Fed (!) but don't cockblock the people fighting other abuses of government.

It would hardly put a dent in the problem.

That same thing is repeated thousands of times about million-dollar and billion-dollar government expenditures and the result is trillions of debt.

I say cut the head off the snake first before you try to cut off the rattle. End the Fed and then we won't need a minimum wage.

We don't need a minimum wage period and the Fed does nothing to improve the situation. They both suck. Even when we still had some degree of a gold standard, the minimum wage was devastating. I can't say which is worse (I include the drug war as a 'minimum wage' like issue) but the sooner one or the other or preferably both is gone, the better.

Why do so many people defend statism by putting up barriers to freedom? Why consent to the thought that we "need" a minimum wage? We don't and never did! I hear this all the time, "we used to need these child labor laws but today they are antiquated". Wrong! They were bad when enacted and they are still bad today.

 

[Keith and stuff]

I cannot beleive how many people on here want extreme economic regulations. This is incredible. As I posted, only 1 of the 11 states with the lowest unemployment rates has an effective minimum wage above the federal level, the lowest legal level. That's true, even though around 17 states have minimum wages above the lowest legal level.

I'm pretty sure that any halfway reasonable person could figure out that minimum wage laws are bad if they read the related chapter in Economics in One Lesson.

It is incredible reading the reactions here when even the former Democratic majority in NH passed a law reducing the minimum wage for some types of work.

 

[nobody's_hero]

Poverty is always relative and will always exist. It can't be eliminated because it is a moving target.

That's why I said, reduce poverty, rather than eliminate it. The poverty line is increasing and it is due to inflation.

If we decriminalized working - what I propose - we would have fewer people unemployed and our money would go further. Having to fight the Fed first, while admirable, is unnecessary (to improve this particular aspect). Fight the Fed (!) but don't cockblock the people fighting other abuses of government.

How would the money go further if it is continuing to decline in value due to inflation? You have to stop printing money into oblivion first. Eliminating the minimum wage would just put us back to 1938 where the people were frustrated that their money wasn't buying as much, which means they'll want minimum wage reinstated.

That same thing is repeated thousands of times about million-dollar and billion-dollar government expenditures and the result is trillions of debt.

Actually, it's what Ron Paul says when he talks about treating the disease, and not just the symptoms. The minimum wage was essentially a symptom of the Fed's disease (inflation). Cure the disease. End the fed.

We don't need a minimum wage period and the Fed does nothing to improve the situation. They both suck. Even when we still had some degree of a gold standard, the minimum wage was devastating. I can't say which is worse (I include the drug war as a 'minimum wage' like issue) but the sooner one or the other or preferably both is gone, the better.

Agreed that the Fed and the minimum wage both suck.

But of course the minimum wage is devastating on a gold standard—gold doesn't magically reproduce like paper does (which is why I like gold*). If gold could just be run through a copy-machine and reproduced, I promise that we'd get a minimum wage for gold currency. They would drive the value of gold down by diluting the supply until people demanded an increase in the minimum gold wage to make up for what they've lost—just as they have done with paper money.

Why do so many people defend statism by putting up barriers to freedom? Why consent to the thought that we "need" a minimum wage? We don't and never did! I hear this all the time, "we used to need these child labor laws but today they are antiquated". Wrong! They were bad when enacted and they are still bad today.

I'm not defending statism. I think you misunderstood my tone.

I'm not arguing that the minimum wage is justified. I'm arguing simply that it was a cause-and -effect relationship to the Federal Reserve's policy of printing money endlessly. We should determine the cause and eliminate the cause (Federal Reserve Act of 1913), because if you just eliminate the effect (Minimum Wage Act of 1938), you're going to crush people between lower wages and a plummetting dollar value. (EDIT: it wouldn't personally be your fault, I mean, after all, you didn't print all that money, but that's what would happen—people would be paid less while the dollar continues to lose about 5% of its value annually)

 

[psi2941]

i hope u guys know if a employee is getting paid 7/hr then its prob costing the employer around 9 dollars an hour. if u include all the employer contributions, employer unemployment insurance extortion, fees to hire an accountant or a payroll company to deal with all the fucken government forms and payroll tax just to fuckin pay a couple of employees instead of just writing a check. On top of that, general insurance to cover in case the employee sues you or gets hurt.


Obama 2012! Unless rp got an ace up his sleeve then Ron Paul 2012

 

[csu1987]

Obama 2012! Unless rp got an ace up his sleeve then Ron Paul 2012

Eh NO, just NO.

Only Ron Paul and sure as fuck not obama. I'd vote for romney before i'd vote the loser in the white house all over again.

 

[csu1987]

Eliminating the minimum wage would not be very helpful in reducing poverty unless you could find a way to stop inflation dead in its tracks.

Think about it:

The reason we have a minimum wage is because of inflation. The Fed and Congress realized that if we did not have a minimum wage, people would quickly realize that their quality of life is decreasing as the purchasing power of their dollar decreases. It's no coincidence that before the Federal Reserve act, there was no federal minimum wage (around that time, some states had enacted minimum wages for women to try to bring about equality, but it wasn't a consquence of a central bank mismanaging the money supply).

So if you cut out the minimum wage now, you'd have more people getting paid less by their employers, as all the while everyone (the workers and the employers, and even the remaining unemployed) struggles to stay afloat in a sea of inflation. It would hardly put a dent in the problem.

I say cut the head off the snake first before you try to cut off the rattle. End the Fed and then we won't need a minimum wage.

Hire more people at 12 an hour but working less long shifts. Have more people trade off shifts and work less hours, perfect.

So 5.5 hours = 66 dollars. Less burnout.

Where as $8 an hour for 8 hours = 64 dollars.


Work 4 days a week and you've got 1000 at the end of the month, after taxes. You've also got 3 days a week with family or whatever.

That beats any 600 dollar unemployment check. Pays the rent, etc

It seems like someone in high school or out of high school could do this for 2-3 years, save that money(if they put it away) then down payment on a house, rent it out while you join the military and would be gold once they got out. Don't get married.

 

[kezt777]

Eliminating the minimum wage would not be very helpful in reducing poverty unless you could find a way to stop inflation dead in its tracks.

Do you think though that a minimum wage, especially increases in min wage, also lead to a form of inflation? As I posted from my own experience in Alberta where minimum wage has increased at least 3 times in as many years, when it goes up - so do prices. I never seem to get anywhere. I make above min wage but close enough that each time it increases, my employer increases my wage to keep me the same distance away from the minimum so it doesnt look like she is paying me peanuts after so many years working there. However, it has yet to help me purchase more product because inevitably, with each increase, product and services prices increase as well. So I might get a 'raise', but I cannot purchase more. We had a reduction in the federal income tax on goods and services in the middle of Alberta increasing it's minimum wage, yet products were costing more so it didn't make a difference for us. Even at my own workplace, each time min wage went up, we had to increase the fees parents paid for childcare by $20/month (or one time we cut the hot lunch Fridays service instead of a fee hike) in order to be able to afford to pay staff the new wages. So, parents have had to pay more 3 times in the last 3 years - and most of them are minimum or near-minimum wage workers. So their 60 cent/hour raise disappeared just like that with subtle increases in products and services they use. It seems to me like a vicious circle. I am making more than double what I made a decade ago and I am no better off financially at all.

 

[nobody's_hero]

It seems like someone in high school or out of high school could do this for 2-3 years, save that money(if they put it away) then down payment on a house, rent it out while you join the military and would be gold once they got out. Don't get married.

If you save it, you'll get robbed, lol.

No one in his right mind (or at least, paying attentiong to the dollar's declining purchasing power) is going to work for $1000/mo and hold on to it for 3 years, given the rate of inflation. That down payment is going to increase by the time they are ready to buy a home. The military might be a good bet from an economic standpoint, since you will be taken care of (somewhat) so long as you are in the service. I have no doubt, though, that this is by design. We still have a draft, as people have no alternative but to join the service for economic reasons. Ron Paul has mentioned this numerous times. (but I suppose that is a separate debate).

Do you think though that a minimum wage, especially increases in min wage, also lead to a form of inflation? As I posted from my own experience in Alberta where minimum wage has increased at least 3 times in as many years, when it goes up - so do prices. I never seem to get anywhere. I make above min wage but close enough that each time it increases, my employer increases my wage to keep me the same distance away from the minimum so it doesnt look like she is paying me peanuts after so many years working there. However, it has yet to help me purchase more product because inevitably, with each increase, product and services prices increase as well. So I might get a 'raise', but I cannot purchase more. We had a reduction in the federal income tax on goods and services in the middle of Alberta increasing it's minimum wage, yet products were costing more so it didn't make a difference for us. Even at my own workplace, each time min wage went up, we had to increase the fees parents paid for childcare by $20/month (or one time we cut the hot lunch Fridays service instead of a fee hike) in order to be able to afford to pay staff the new wages. So, parents have had to pay more 3 times in the last 3 years - and most of them are minimum or near-minimum wage workers. So their 60 cent/hour raise disappeared just like that with subtle increases in products and services they use. It seems to me like a vicious circle. I am making more than double what I made a decade ago and I am no better off financially at all.

I don't see why it wouldn't.

The purpose of the minimum wage being enacted was not to help people get ahead, it was to allow them, at best, to break-even. If they had not passed the minimum wage act, you would see riots in the street, because it would be impossible to live on the min. wage of the 1990s, today. Although, riots might not be the end-of-the-world, if it gets people to turn their attention to central banking. However, I fear that the unrest would only pit those who want to repeal the minimum wage versus those who want to increase the minimum wage, while the Federal Reserve quietly slips out the back door.

Price inflation could very well be perpetual, as you suggest, but . . .

We would still have monetary inflation, even if the minimum wage was still $5.25/hr. That's the point I'm trying to make. If min. wage is repealed and you're paid $4/hr, and toilet paper one day costs $10/roll anyway, we're going to have a literal sh*t-storm on our hands, lol. In some ways, we already have that happening. They cannot increase the minimum wage fast enough to keep up with all the money that has been printed since 2008. The Fed is engaged in a massive transfer of wealth.

End the fed. Stop printing money and let the market decide what the minimum wage should be, without some guy at the Federal Reserve constantly tinkering with the money supply. Employers and employees can't make good estimates of what an honest wage should be, if someone in power keeps clouding their vision.

 

[kezt777]

If you save it, you'll get robbed, lol.

No one in his right mind (or at least, paying attentiong to the dollar's declining purchasing power) is going to work for $1000/mo and hold on to it for 3 years, given the rate of inflation. That down payment is going to increase by the time they are ready to buy a home. The military might be a good bet from an economic standpoint, since you will be taken care of (somewhat) so long as you are in the service. I have no doubt, though, that this is by design. We still have a draft, as people have no alternative but to join the service for economic reasons. Ron Paul has mentioned this numerous times. (but I suppose that is a separate debate).



I don't see why it wouldn't.

The purpose of the minimum wage being enacted was not to help people get ahead, it was to allow them, at best, to break-even. If they had not passed the minimum wage act, you would see riots in the street, because it would be impossible to live on the min. wage of the 1990s, today. Of course, riots may be what we need, if it gets people to turn their attention to central banking. However, I fear that the unrest would only pit those who want to repeal the minimum wage versus those who want to increase the minimum wage, while the Federal Reserve quietly slips out the back door.

It could very well be perpetual, as you suggest, but . . .

We would still have monetary inflation, even if the minimum wage was still $5.25/hr. That's the point I'm trying to make. If min. wage is repealed and you're paid $4/hr, and toilet paper one day costs $10/roll anyway, we're going to have a literal sh*t-storm on our hands, lol. In some ways, we already have that happening. They cannot increase the minimum wage fast enough to keep up with all the money that has been printed since 2008. The Fed is engaged in a massive transfer of wealth.

End the fed. Stop printing money and let the market decide what the minimum wage should be without some guy at the Federal Reserve constantly tinkering with the money supply.

It is definately a big mess but I guess having my minmium wage increase from $6/hr in 1998 to $9.10/hr in 2010 (or 11? I have lost track), and a big jug of milk was just over a third of that hourly wage in 1998 but is now over half of the hourly wage (from the same store), I don't know how it has helped and worry that it has actually hindered. Not just for the consumer/worker but for small businesses. When my son started daycare in 1998, the monthly fee was $425 and it had risen incredibly slowly before that... but shortly afteward there were so many changes and increases to minimum wage (the most common reason for us to raise fees), we are now sitting at $640/month and will need to raise it again due to other govt involvement needing staff to work longer hours to do their paperwork papertrails. Anyway my point is, the vicious circle goes like this ..... people are struggling to purchase basic needs, so minimum wage goes up, businesses that employ lower wage workers increase their product/service fees in order to pay their staff, people who were struggling before are still struggling so minimum wage goes up again, and the same businesses increase their prices to make up for it, and yet again the people are STILL struggling and again minimum wage increases - and it never ever stops. Next thing we know in Alberta, people will be earning $10/hour minimum wage and still struggle. Where exactly does it end? When my kids are adults, is the minimum wage going to be $25/hour?? Who knows. Add that fact alone to all of the other reasons prices go up, and it is endless. But the basics of raising min wage to meet deficiencies in lowest wage earners being able to afford stuff does not work at all when in response, the products they are trying to buy increase in price. I don't see how they can get out of this cycle. Once it started, people immediately relied on it and had no way out.

 

[Brett85]

The minimum wage should be repealed, along with the 40 hour work week and all the other unconstitutional federal labor laws. The entire department of Labor has no basis in the Constitution and should be abolished. It's strange to see some "libertarians" arguing in favor of the minimum wage.

 

[furface]

At the very least it would cause the unemployment rate to drop.

Anybody here looking for a minimum wage job and can't find one?

 

[Massachusetts]

Anybody here looking for a minimum wage job and can't find one?

You want to know why this is the case? Because some jobs quite simply aren't worth the current minimum wage, so why would an employer add more jobs when the minimum wage is paying the employee more than the production of that employee is bringing in? The idea of business is to make a profit. In some industries, paying an employee the current minimum wage doesn't put companies in a good position to even break even just like any regulations cause unemployment to skyrocket.