Eliminate Drunk Driving laws

Earlier today I was at a traffic light and 2 assholes were trying to beat it, I of course waited for them to pass though it was green for me. When that same intersection has no power for the lights(which is regular), traffic is much smoother. Also, I've witness a few accidents from people trying to beat the light, though never when there is no working lights.
 
It's a Delicate Issue

Private roads are not a strictly anarchist notion. They are a capitalist and "propertarian" notion. They also predate the modern conversation on the topic.

You're right about the importance and complexity of roads, but it does not follow that their cost/maintenance must be socialized. The network of networks that comprises the internet is also vastly complicated, and can be dangerous if hackers get access to certain computers-would you have the government take that over as well?

Well, I don't need the Internet in order to live. However, I do need the roads to get to work so that I can make a living. Also, I'm not arguing that simply because an entity is complex that, therefore, the civil magistrate must regulate it. That is an absurd line of reasoning, were I to argue that.

Consider the context of what I was talking about. I was simply stating that privatization of the roads is an impractical effort because of how much the public domain of roads has been for society in commercial traveling, family vacations, business ventures, emergencies, etc.

In addition, I am not saying there can be no private roads. If a person owns a mansion on a plot of land and decides to build a road from a public one leading to his home, that is fine. To me, this isn't an "Either-Or" issue. We can have both public roads and private roads and still be a free people.

By the way, I see you've conveniently ignored my scenario about what would an anarchist do if the roads were auctioned off and the public kept off because the owners didn't want others to mess them up...
 
Somehow, anarchists have this naive notion that if a restraint is lifted from the public domain, it will always be optimal behavior for society.

Even though your sentence is far from perfectly clear, it seems you are insistent on utilizing strawman arguments in order to refute your opponents’ position. Why do you have to AGAIN distort the position? Can you not refute the ACTUAL position?
 
Well, I don't need the Internet in order to live.
Perhaps you don't, but many people do.

However, I do need the roads to get to work so that I can make a living. Also, I'm not arguing that simply because an entity is complex that, therefore, the civil magistrate must regulate it. That is an absurd line of reasoning, were I to argue that.
Good. We can agree on that. (I like the Locke reference-"civil magistrate" ;):D)

Consider the context of what I was talking about. I was simply stating that privatization of the roads is an impractical effort because of how much the public domain of roads has been for society in commercial traveling, family vacations, business ventures, emergencies, etc.
You did indeed say this, but it was speculation. You also ignore my point that socialized roads may SEEM like a net benefit (compare seen vs. unseen costs), but the cost of maintaining them outweighs the benefit. These costs could be minimized with a better model.

In addition, I am not saying there can be no private roads. If a person owns a mansion on a plot of land and decides to build a road from a public one leading to his home, that is fine. To me, this isn't an "Either-Or" issue. We can have both public roads and private roads and still be a free people.

If one must pay the government for roads he doesn't even use, one can hardly be called "free".

By the way, I see you've conveniently ignored my scenario about what would an anarchist do if the roads were auctioned off and the public kept off because the owners didn't want others to mess them up...
I ignored that because I am not an anarchist. If I am to deal with this very vague scenario, I need some more details-why would the roads be auctioned off? (the public would already be restricted from using private roads they haven't paid for/subscribed to in the same way they are prevented from walking into your house. There are many ways to deal with how people will pay for use, some have been worked out by Block. Others will materialize as the subject is studied further)
 
Following the Yellow Brick Road...

Even though your sentence is far from perfectly clear, it seems you are insistent on utilizing strawman arguments in order to refute your opponents’ position. Why do you have to AGAIN distort the position? Can you not refute the ACTUAL position?

It's not a strawman. Simply put, the absence of the State is better than the presence of the State to regulate things like the roads via traffic laws, according to anarchists, right? From that, it leads to an increase in people following the NAP when they drive on all private roads because they realize they don't need a decentralized government telling them what to do, right? What am I missing there? That is the optimal condition I'm referring to in anarchical reasoning. It's the belief that with no State present, life can be better for us all.
 
Some Clarification

You did indeed say this, but it was speculation. You also ignore my point that socialized roads may SEEM like a net benefit (compare seen vs. unseen costs), but the cost of maintaining them outweighs the benefit. These costs could be minimized with a better model.

What better model? Please explain.

If one must pay the government for roads he doesn't even use, one can hardly be called "free".

I guess one could opt of the tax code for the use of roads, but if it is later found he is using them, he has every right to be fined by the State, too.

I ignored that because I am not an anarchist. If I am to deal with this very vague scenario, I need some more details-why would the roads be auctioned off? (the public would already be restricted from using private roads they haven't paid for/subscribed to in the same way they are prevented from walking into your house. There are many ways to deal with how people will pay for use, some have been worked out by Block. Others will materialize as the subject is studied further)

It's basically giving control of the roads over to private citizens who are able and willing to pay whatever price to own the roads for themselves. (That would be wealthy people like the Gates and Buffets of the world, not the average RPF anarchist, by the way. ;)) That's what I was getting at.
 
It's not a strawman. Simply put, the absence of the State is better than the presence of the State to regulate things like the roads via traffic laws, according to anarchists

Once again, you got caught in a lie, and in order to save face are now denying it by changing your argument. Same as before, just different wording.

Here, just look at your two statements (as if I actually have to explain it to you):

1) “Somehow, anarchists have this naive notion that if a restraint is lifted from the public domain, it will always be optimal behavior for society.”
2) “Simply put, the absence of the State is better than the presence of the State to regulate things like the roads via traffic laws, according to anarchists.”

The first one talks in terms of absolute generality and throws in an absolute exaggeration to boot. The second one has no such absolute errors and speaks very specifically. HINT: Your second statement is not even close to your original claim. Basically, you got caught misrepresenting (distorting) your opponent’s position, so you respond by trying to misrepresent (correct) your original misrepresentation (trying to imply that you did not misrepresent it).

Can you not make a legitimate argument?
 
Holding Your Hand

Once again, you got caught in a lie, and in order to save face are now denying it by changing your argument. Same as before, just different wording.

Here, just look at your two statements (as if I actually have to explain it to you):

1) “Somehow, anarchists have this naive notion that if a restraint is lifted from the public domain, it will always be optimal behavior for society.”
2) “Simply put, the absence of the State is better than the presence of the State to regulate things like the roads via traffic laws, according to anarchists.”

The first one talks in terms of absolute generality and throws in an absolute exaggeration to boot. The second one has no such absolute errors and speaks very specifically. HINT: Your second statement is not even close to your original claim. Basically, you got caught misrepresenting (distorting) your opponent’s position, so you respond by trying to misrepresent (correct) your original misrepresentation (trying to imply that you did not misrepresent it).

Can you not make a legitimate argument?

Oh my goodness, idirtify. Do I have to connect the dots of reasoning for you about your own beliefs? Is the State a restraint on society? Answer that question first.
 
What better model? Please explain.
A good model is laid out in Block's book on roads, and there are others who are exploring this area as well.


I guess one could opt of the tax code for the use of roads, but if it is later found he is using them, he has every right to be fined by the State, too.
You're assuming a "competing" model, in which some roads are public, some are private, "competing" for users. This is a poor model for your argument-because in a free society, people tend to prefer private roads for a number of reasons, including better upkeep and rule enforcement.


It's basically giving control of the roads over to private citizens who are able and willing to pay whatever price to own the roads for themselves. (That would be wealthy people like the Gates and Buffets of the world, not the average RPF anarchist, by the way. ;)) That's what I was getting at.
why is this less preferable than the wealthy and powerful government critters controlling the roads? (assuming that said millionaires would desire such a low-return investment-the returns would mostly be from advertising-we can assume that subscription costs for road use would decline over time, as with other products) A Gates or Buffet is not a government that can be easily bribed and manipulated, or simply pander to special interests as the government often does. ;)


FYI, Block responds in greater detail to your arguments and other arguments against private roads in his "rejoinder to Carnis on Private Roads". Well worth reading if you're interested in this topic.
 
Well worth reading if you're interested in this topic.

Although they go through the trouble of arguing against the privatization of roads, etc., it doesn't seem like they are really that interested in these subjects in the first place. They are more interested in defending their blind allegiance to the state than learning about practical alternatives.
 
Oh my goodness, idirtify. Do I have to connect the dots of reasoning for you about your own beliefs? Is the State a restraint on society? Answer that question first.

Now what is this third argument you are introducing? My whole comment was dedicated to exposing your previous deceptive arguing tactics. Twice you distorted your opponents’ position to more easily “defeat” it, and twice I caught you doing it, and twice you responded with a false denial consisting of a blatant distortion of your original distortion. Now you completely ignore the exposures and try distracting away from them with something about “dots”. There was nothing in my comment that would cause you to infer something about my beliefs on whether the state is a “restraint on society”.

I suppose if the first two tricks don’t work, try a third. Right? Trouble with that is: your credibility suffers. Can you not make a legitimate argument? Can you not correctly characterize your opponent’s position? Do you not care about your credibility?
 
And the Answer Is...

Now what is this third argument you are introducing? My whole comment was dedicated to exposing your previous deceptive arguing tactics. Twice you distorted your opponents’ position to more easily “defeat” it, and twice I caught you doing it, and twice you responded with a false denial consisting of a blatant distortion of your original distortion. Now you completely ignore the exposures and try distracting away from them with something about “dots”. There was nothing in my comment that would cause you to infer something about my beliefs on whether the state is a “restraint on society”.

I suppose if the first two tricks don’t work, try a third. Right? Trouble with that is: your credibility suffers. Can you not make a legitimate argument? Can you not correctly characterize your opponent’s position? Do you not care about your credibility?

If you answer the question, you will see where I'm coming from. Interestingly, you refuse to answer such a simple question, in the hopes of trying to refute my critique of your position. There are no tricks involved, I assure you. Just answer the question.
 
You know people like Theo, and Traditional Conservative if alive in the 1820s would be rabid socialists compared to most Americans who were in favor of the privatization of all so-called "public works" and even expressely forbade such funding for these in their State Constitutions. The anarchist position only relates to LAW AND COURTS. This stupid mischaracterization is absurd. You can see how far socialist we have come as a society when so-called liberty advocates are completely socialist.
 
I think some road laws are reasonable, at the moment, such as speed limits and stoplights...drunk driving? I have mixed feelings about that, but I think if someone kills someone else while driving drunk it should be the death penalty for the drunk driver...no questions asked.

It really needs to be up to private companies who own the roads to make up the rules; under that situation the best "rules" of the road that maximize profit, safety, and efficiency will win; maybe it's a speed limit of 67 MPH, maybe it's 58 MPH, or maybe we don't need any at all, but we really need the market to find out what really is the best.
 
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I think some road laws are reasonable, at the moment, such as speed limits and stoplights...drunk driving? I have mixed feelings about that, but I think if someone kills someone while driving drunk it should be the death penalty...no questions asked.

what if they were both drunk?
(that's a question)
 
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