Drug Users: Sub-human, second-class citizens?

The mainstream attitude? In short, yes.

People who don't know drug users personally usually associate them with the image of drug users on TV. Celebrities and cartoons are always telling us to "Stay away from drugs" (The same celebrities USE drugs!?)!?

Ah,, that explains it.
I don't listen to "Celebrities" or cartoons. I try to ignore propaganda as much as possible. (except for personal educational purposes)

I really don't give a shit what other people think. (most people are brain dead idiots)
With the exception of some here. But we aren't "most people".
;)
 
Ah,, that explains it.
I don't listen to "Celebrities" or cartoons. I try to ignore propaganda as much as possible. (except for personal educational purposes)

I really don't give a shit what other people think. (most people are brain dead idiots)
With the exception of some here. But we aren't "most people".
;)
Except I'm trying to understand the environment that drug users face in regards to non-drug users.
 
Except I'm trying to understand the environment that drug users face in regards to non-drug users.


You're progressing under the assumption that "drug-users" are branded with a scarlet D on their forehead.
Unless a person has been convicted of a drug crime 95% of the general public won't even know who they are.
There's no different environment for users than non-users in general society.
 
Except I'm trying to understand the environment that drug users face in regards to non-drug users.

Almost everyone is a drug user to some degree. I'm pretty sure you are referring to the current list of illegal drugs in the US, so I won't push that point. Personally, I would say that you can't understand the mind of someone who has experienced alternate perspectives of reality through the use of drugs unless you have done so yourself. I think writing on the subject is a futile effort unless you have the experience. Just my opinion.
 
You're progressing under the assumption that "drug-users" are branded with a scarlet D on their forehead.
Unless a person has been convicted of a drug crime 95% of the general public won't even know who they are.
There's no different environment for users than non-users in general society.

While drug users are certainly not branded, if they come out about being a drug user they will most certainly be shunned by some, especially in religiously dominated areas like Utah. More important than the shunning, though, is that they also need fear being harassed by police because someone didn't like their personal choices, and decided to report them to the drug task squads. No one has to feel unsafe when they say "Drugs are bad." On the contrary, if you're a drug user and say "Drugs shouldn't be illegal," you have to seriously consider that someone, somewhere, with some vendetta, might report you as a drug-dealing villain to the drug task squads, and as a result you could spend time in prison. Because of this, the environment for a drug user is significantly different than that of a non-user.

The problem of drug views, in America, can really be boiled down to mass propaganda, a falsely defined version of morality, and the perceived effects of drugs creating criminals, when in actuality it's the drug war that creates the criminals, and not the other way around. We're taught as children that all illegal drugs, under all circumstances, are bad. Not just bad for health, but immoral. News media only reports on drugs when tangible negative effects can be seen. For instance, if there is violence involved, or overdose.

Many people consider drug usage to be immoral. I feel this is a false definition of morality, as drugs are not either moral or immoral things. This is one of my biggest gripes with modern religions, is the demonization of various substances. Substances have no minds. They are not morally inclined in either direction. Arguing that drugs are immoral is much like arguing that guns are immoral, or rat poison is immoral, or... well, any other object that might possibly contain the potential for negative impacts on health. Sure, they're all capable of incredibly negative things, but how something is used is what makes something moral, or immoral. It's not immoral to use drugs in the privacy of your own home. It is immoral to drug someone without their permission.

It's funny, really, when you consider the implications. Modern society almost views drugs as a person; some devil that hides under the beds of our children every night. They think drugs, by themselves, are somehow capable of forcing people to do things. Illogical, really, when you consider that an addict cannot become addicted without having first willingly tried the drug, and not just once, but multiple times. The only case where people can unwillingly become addicted to drugs is when the drugs are forced upon them. And, in this scenario, it's still not the drugs that are immoral; it's the person forcing you to use them.

People don't understand that drugs, especially conscious-expanding drugs, can have incredibly beneficial effects. They don't see, for example, the guy that takes psilocybin mushrooms and realizes he has been living his life in the wrong way, and needs to make changes. The only people they ever hear about, from news media, are the ones that take shrooms and then go crazy and break windows and think they're taking part a role in Fight Club.

Interestingly, and on a side note, I wouldn't have become a Ron Paul convert had I never taken shrooms. Before taking shrooms I was a typical arrogant liberal. During my trip, I relived my memories from an 'outside' perspective, and I saw just how wrong I was in so many areas. This didn't directly lead to me becoming a Libertarian. It simply opened my mind to the possibility that, hey, you know, I might just be wrong sometimes. As a result of this, when Ron Paul's message came along, I was open to hearing it. (It was also an incredibly uncomfortable trip, I might add, because it forced me to see things I simply didn't want to see.)

Note that I'm not advocating that everyone use drugs, or that there are always beneficial effects. Many people don't tolerate conscious-expanding drugs, and it can lead to incredibly negative experiences, just as it can lead to good ones. I'm only advocating that if one chooses to do so in the privacy of their own homes, they should be allowed that choice, and they should not be considered immoral for doing so. It is not the taxpayers responsibility to be policing the bodies of every individual in America.

Much like terrorism has been espoused as something we all need constantly be afraid of, drug use has similarly been demonized. Americans have been conditioned to believe that there are ghouls under our beds. In reality, the ghouls are all out in plain sight. Maybe we'd see them if we got our heads out from under the bed? Of course, those that want to oppress civil liberties don't want us to see anything that isn't under the bed. Why? Because they can't control what isn't under the bed, and they don't care for things they can't control.

The best way to gain control of a population is to make them fear something. Just look at 9/11 and the patriot act. One major attack against America, and everyone was yearning to give up their freedoms, if just to prevent another hypothetical attack. Someone posted on these forums an interesting article a couple days ago. You are eight times as likely to die at the hands of a police officer, than at the hands of a terrorist. So, please, can someone tell me why we're so afraid of terrorists, and not afraid of our own police? Logic would dictate you would follow the statistics... But, then, the media isn't trying to produce logic-based assumptions, I suppose.
 
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As a science fiction nutter, this has been addressed occasionally in the genre by flipping it on it's head, and making the 'offense' a failure to consume drugs (THX1138, Doctor Who 4th Doctor sometime, Equilibrium - especially Equilibrium). Then you flip the whole war and stigma back onto the people who would have nothing to do with them. Makes it easier for them to identify with the treatment. It's about time a 21st century treatment of it was done. :)
 
Except I'm trying to understand the environment that drug users face in regards to non-drug users.

Non drug users,,,,

I don't know that I have ever met any.

EVER.
 
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As a science fiction nutter, this has been addressed occasionally in the genre by flipping it on it's head, and making the 'offense' a failure to consume drugs (THX1138, Doctor Who 4th Doctor sometime, Equilibrium - especially Equilibrium). Then you flip the whole war and stigma back onto the people who would have nothing to do with them. Makes it easier for them to identify with the treatment. It's about time a 21st century treatment of it was done. :)

I write fiction in my spare time, and I'm considering a story with a slightly similar idea. There would be some natural disaster, or outside attack, that would result in constant-inflammation to all the people within the effected area. All people in this area would be forced to use cannabis as a means of anti-inflammation (CBD, in cannabis, is anti-inflammatory, and also inhibits inflammation). Some people, of course, would rather use aspirin, or nothing at all, but the government of this particular society would not allow it, because aspirin is seen as relatively dangerous when compared to hemp, and not using anything at all would lead to chronic illnesses and early death.

Just the basic idea, of course, but it would certainly be a fun one to write about.
 
Non drug users,,,,

I don't know that I have ever met any.

EVER.

Agreed, and I think this is one of the biggest reasons for prescription drug abuse in America. We teach that certain drugs are acceptable, and certain drugs aren't. It's OK to use pharmaceuticals! They won't ever hurt us. They're prescribed by a doctor after all! We aren't taught, as children, that all drugs are capable of negative effects. Even caffeine. Instead of educating children on all drugs, they educate children solely, and excessively, on the illegal ones. Then, when said children grow up, they go to a doctor and feel safe with anything the doctor prescribes.

The reality, of course, is that many modern pharmaceuticals are far more dangerous than many illegal drugs. If it were up to me, we'd be talking to children less about LSD, psilicybin, and marijuana, and more about benzodiazepines, opiates, alcohol, and other CNS depressants. When you look at the majority of people who die from overdoses, most often the cause is a CNS depressant. Relatively speaking, LSD, psilocybin, and marijuana are far more safe. You might do stupid things whilst under their effects, but the actual chemicals will do little in terms of fatal, irreversible damage. This is not to say, of course, that I support the usage of these drugs among children. We need to be honest with them, though. The real dangerous drugs of the modern age aren't psychidellics; they're CNS depressants. When we teach that marijuana is more dangerous than Oxycontin--that methamphetamine and cocaine are schedule II drugs, while marijuana is a schedule I--we make it that much more difficult for them to assess what is actually dangerous.
 
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From my wifes viewpoint, there is a set right and wrong - and she arrives at this based on her religious upbringing. People who choose to use drugs are choosing to live "wrong" or bad, and while she doesn't judge people based on their actions, she notes that they aren't the same as her, and limits her exposure to those people.

I love my wife, but I disagree entirely. I am also a christian, but I don't believe that is how Christ intended people to view the world. Yes, there is a right and wrong - its good to help those in need, bad to kill, good to forgive those who have done you wrong, bad to commit adultery. But Christ didn't come here to spend time with the good people. He came for those who were sick, who were sinners. He tried to teach those who had it all to give it away because the treasures of the Earth are nothing compared to those in heaven. And he tried to teach people to reach out in love to those who were living sinful lives, and not judge and condemn them.

I don't buy into the drugs are bad because they are drugs logic. I believe God provides for everyone what they need, even non believers. In moderation, anything (almost) can be beneficial, but overuse is obviously a bad choice if it damages your ability to make good decisions. Anything goes here though, not just illegal drugs. Think about the damage that having easy credit can do for a college student, or someone that gets addicted to some computer game and slacks off on his personal responsibilities. Or eat too much food and get fat and die of a heart failure. Should we ban food?

The reason I posted all that was to point out how some people view drug users.. its a misguided judgement of character, influenced by religion, government propaganda, and other factors. It is troubling to think about how many people see things the same way my wife does, and even more go further than that. I am trying to help her understand that she is right, if her convictions are that drugs are bad, then she shouldn't use them, but God, in His infinite love for all his children, gave us the CHOICE. The choice to follow Him, or not. We as christains can't hold nonbelievers to our set of morals and rules. Not because its not a right or wrong issue, but because God gives everyone the choice to live how they want.
 
God, in His infinite love for all his children, gave us the CHOICE. The choice to follow Him, or not. We as christains can't hold nonbelievers to our set of morals and rules. Not because its not a right or wrong issue, but because God gives everyone the choice to live how they want.

God also gave us plants that were compatible with our bodies in such a way that we could actually get a small glimpse of him through them.
 
Asurfaholic,

The world needs more Christians like you. It really does.

I think one of the best arguments against "drug users = bad" is that many people use drugs as legitimate self-medication. I have used TWO illegal substances in my entire life. Mushrooms, and marijuana. And even then, I've only used mushrooms twice. To some peoples standards, I might be a terrible person, but to them I ask this: What have you done, recently, to help your fellow man? I'm a pretty generous guy. If my friends don't have money when we go out to eat, I'm the type of person that will pay for them. When anyone has any problems, I try to be there for them if they need to talk it out. I try to be respectful of other peoples opinions, and I might rant about things, but rarely will I ever get into confrontations. I've never physically harmed another person in my entire life. I'm an agnostic, but whenever people attack someone because of their religion, I try to stand up for that person. Why? Because I believe in personal choice.

I have Bipolar II disorder and five suicide attempts under my belt. Four of those suicide attempts occurred before I discovered marijuana. The last attempt occurred about a year ago, after a friend killed herself, and I was simultaneously being prescribed a pharmaceutical anti-depressant called Effexor. Effexor made me go rather crazy, and I honestly doubt I would have survived it without the use of cannabis. To make matters worse, Effexor is an addictive anti-depressant, and getting off of it was the equivalent of going absolutely crazy for two whole weeks.

To your wife I would ask this: Why am I a bad person? I find relief for my genetic disorder via the usage of cannabis. It's not as if I haven't tried pharmaceutical medications -- I've tried a lot of them. But, at the end of the day, I found the most effective combination for me was ONE pharmaceutical medication, and cannabis use. Does she realize that if someone like me were put in prison, I'd likely end up dead, a victim to my own disorder?
 
What do you think of society's attitude towards drug users? I mean, mainstream society in general treats drugs as almost a sort of taboo. But drug users are judged and stereotyped as if they aren't even human! People look at them in disgust like trouble makers, criminals, and many even assume all drug users are helplessly broken individuals shaking in a corner, shivering simply because of drugs!

These are not questions answerable in simple terms. Hooboy.... where to begin.

OK, firstly one needs to distinguish the acts and habits of getting high and those that may be said to be the consequences of getting high.

Getting high is no big deal in and of itself. Billions of people drink alcohol and this is largely accepted as being OK, save in the case of alcoholism which receives responses similar to that of drug use, the underlying issue being that of addiction. It seems to me that any addict is widely regarded as despicable for a number of reasons that range from failure to be in control of oneself to failure to respect the gift of one's own life to the failure to respect the lives of others.

The consequences of the things people do while they are high, however, is often a very big problem. Inebriation often results in behaviors that violate the rights of others. For example, driving drunk or stoned poses no direct threat to others. Killing others because one's inebriated state disallowed safe operation of a vehicle seems to me to be a very legitimate reason for coming down hard on such people. Just my opinion.

The disgust for people who get high per se appears to my eyes to be largely rooted in religion. Christians and Muslims are particularly guilty of regarding the pursuit of carnal pleasures as indicative of a low and "sinful" character deserving of contempt, though they are not alone.

In addition to all this, I believe that a very large influence component effecting the treatment and regard of addicts is corrupt government. I know, it's redundant. :) The war on drugs has been VERY profitable for certain parties including the drug cartels in terms of money and government in terms of money and power. The ONLY practical way I can see to be able to successfully continue to prosecute a "war on drugs" over the span of many decades is to gain buy-in from the public at large. The best way to do this is to encourage the belief that drug use per sé is evil. Acceptance of that belief readily leads to the notion that possession of drugs is evil, as is manufacture, transport, and sales. Adoption of this system of beliefs leads in turn to acceptance of human rights violations as a "necessary evil" committed for the good old "greater good" of which the communists and other authoritarian collectivist vermin are so fond.

Then there is this propaganda which society assumes people merely take drugs as an "escape", as if they can't solve problems.

All part of the framework justifying the war on drugs and the attendant violations of basic rights. As to "escape", so what? People "escape" reality by a great many means including going to the movies and playing net.games. Wanting to "escape" damns nobody and the implication that it does is indicative of gross ignorance, rank stupidity, or vile corruption... or perhaps a combination of these.

Can we still say drug users are NOT second-class citizens, when they are treated the way they are?


Again, drug use in and of itself does not render one "second class". Neither does flushing one's life down the crapper reduce one's status. Committing acts in violation of the rights of others, OTOH, does; but this would be the case regardless whether one his high. Intoxication may, IMO, be an aggravating factor in such cases of violation, but so what? This does not justify the wider envelope of prohibition and the wholesale violation of the rights of some dumb schmuck who is burning a joint in his living room.

If you have simply a SINGLE gram of weed, Police BREAK DOWN YOUR DOOR, and then they RAVAGE THROUGH YOUR HOME, and come barging at you WITH GUNS!

They do it often enough when you have no drugs in the house at all. More than one raid has been executed against the wrong address. Yet another glaring reason to end the WoD.

I just feel it's an interesting subject matter to write about to explore drug users, and their treatment in society like second-class citizens.

I personally find addicts despicable for some of the reasons mentioned above. That is my personal opinion. Such people most often disgust me. I even had an evil alcoholic woman in my life - something I would never do again. I wish them no harm but would not piss on them to put them out, were they on fire. That said, I am strongly opposed to any laws that criminalize possession or use of drugs. I fully support holding those accountable who bring harm to others regardless whether they are stoned or have a pound and a half of coke sitting on the passenger seat.
 
I personally find addicts despicable for some of the reasons mentioned above.

Just out of curiosity, but all addicts, regardless of the reasons they choose to indulge? One could say I'm addicted to marijuana because I choose to use it every day. I don't choose to use it everyday just to get high, however. I use it because it helps me cope with a genetic disorder, and allows me to function in society as a relatively normal human being. I don't drive stoned, and I only get stoned in the privacy of my home. Would you consider me to be a stupid, addicted schmuck? I don't mean this as an attack on you, I'd just like to point out that there are different kinds of addicts. Also, a lot of addicts these days become addicts through pharmaceuticals. I was addicted to an anti-depressant called Effexor, because my doctor prescribed it to me without telling me it was addictive. I was younger, then, and relatively naive. I trusted my doctor would tell me if the substance was addictive. Again, in this scenario, am I some stupid mindless addict? I certainly didn't enjoy the Effexor, but I did take it for a time because the cost of going off of it (Insanity) was a high price to pay.
 
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Just out of curiosity, but all addicts, regardless of the reasons they choose to indulge?

Legitimate question and I should have expressed myself in better terms. I do not care a whit if people get high. I drink beer so I'd be some stinking hypocrite to deny the meth-head his poison of choice. But also bear in mind that not all drug users are addicted. The much older brother of a gf in high school, we will call him Billy mainly because that was his name, had been a weekend heroin user for at least ten years. He got high on Saturday nights and was straight the rest of the week. I liked Billy a lot... especially because he had no problem with me sneaking in through his sister's window at night for some action. :)

I despise those who choose to destroy their lives and who choose to be too weak not to become addicted. I will not claim I am "right" nor will I concede being "wrong". I have been acquainted with enough of these sorts to get a pretty good view into what makes them tick and it is pretty pathetic and despicable to my eyes. But as I wrote, I wish them no harm whatsoever. I may even feel pity for them and in cases of my choosing under my judgment I may even help someone. I will not, however, waste my time with those whose presence in my life will bring me or mine to harm. Basic self respect demands one protect his own from such things. If the Mother Theresas out there want to hang with those who have no intentions of making good on the help offered them, that is their choice. I will do no such thing, but I may help those who give me reasonable basis to believe they will do their level best to help themselves.

One could say I'm addicted to marijuana because I choose to use it every day. I don't choose to use it everyday just to get high, however. I use it because it helps me cope with a genetic disorder, and allows me to function in society as a relatively normal human being. I don't drive stoned, and I only get stoned in the privacy of my home. Would you consider me to be a stupid, addicted schmuck? I don't mean this as an attack on you, I'd just like to point out that there are different kinds of addicts. Also, a lot of addicts these days become addicts through pharmaceuticals. I was addicted to an anti-depressant called Effexor, because my doctor prescribed it to me without telling me it was addictive. I was younger, then, and relatively naive. I trusted my doctor would tell me if the substance was addictive. Again, in this scenario, am I some stupid mindless addict? I certainly didn't enjoy the Effexor, but I did take it for a time because the cost of going off of it (Insanity) was a high price to pay.

If smoking a joint helps you not put the muzzle to your head, then by all means continue. I have no problem with getting high per se and I believe I was quite clear on this. You apparently failed to catch the real meaning of my words, which may represent my own failure to communicate properly. If you are not destroying your own life with the use then I see nothing to despise or pity. Given your stated motives for use, I would say you have done yourself a good turn. I trod that path awhile many years ago and promptly walked away when I saw clearly that there was nothing profitable for me there. No regrets. No needs.

Just as I believe everyone should be free to live as they see fit so long as they trespass not upon others, I too am free to do the same. This includes holding an opinion of disapproval and disdain for those who so sloppily regard life as to destroy theirs or others regardless of the means by which they might do so.

Have I made my position less muddy?
 
Have I made my position less muddy?

Absolutely, and thanks for clarifying. I'm actually in agreement with you. My parents own a motel, and I grew up seeing a lot of addiction. There are a lot of really disgusting addicts out there; people who purchase drugs, be it tobacco or alcohol, or heroin or weed, and then let their children go hungry. I sincerely hope I didn't come across like I was attacking you, or trying to make you out to be a bad guy, I was just looking for clarification.

Truthfully, I could choose to quit marijuana if I wanted to, and I don't really consider myself to be an addict. For example, if my paycheck came down to "Do I get weed," or "Do I get food?" I would most certainly choose the food. I've quit before, and I'm sure I could quit again. For me, it's simply that I see no benefit to doing so, as the cannabis helps me more than pharmaceuticals, and were I to get off the cannabis I'd need another pharmaceutical to take it's place. Granted, I'm sure all addicts justify their addictions in this sort of manner, but whatever. I figure if it has relatively few health consequences, and it's beneficial to my mental state, I may as well use it for the time being.

I trod that path awhile many years ago and promptly walked away when I saw clearly that there was nothing profitable for me there. No regrets. No needs.

Props! I think that's great. I wish I was in a position to go medication free, but with my disorder that's always a bit scary. I can't complain, though, because my life is pretty good now that I'm on the right track. I might use cannabis every day, but I work thirty hour weeks (Aiming for full time), and I'm currently studying to go back to college for a CS degree. I don't use my medications before I drive places, and I don't use it if I need to get things done. That said, I still hope I'll one day achieve balance without the need for medications. That would truly be ideal. I don't think I'll ever completely quit marijuana, but it would be really nice if it were more an occasional recreational thing, much like alcohol is to many.
 
After contemplating the topic in this thread some more, I thought I would attempt to convey some of my thoughts relative to the original thread topic / question.

I would say that feeding your brain "imposter neurotransmitters" is not the
experience in itself. Your brain does a very good job at quickly adapting to
new inputs, comparing it with experience, and forming a perceived path from the
present to the perceived future based on that. It normally stores "filtered"
information for recall. When you add chemicals, this normal filtering
mechanism can be disabled in a way that you experience a different perspective
of things going on around you. Some of that is because your sensory
information is altered by the drug, but your brain can compensate for that and
observe other information (real information) that it normally wouldn't. This
unfiltered information can be very enlightening (or unsettling). It might make
you a more tolerant person of others despite their shortcomings (from your
viewpoint). It might make you happier. It might help you realize that we (all
life) are connected in ways that are indescribable with language. It might
help you to realize that science in itself can never achieve a true description
of reality through observation even though you are a well-educated scientist.

So back to the original question: "How does society see drug users?"

I assume you mean how does the portion of society without any experience with
mind-expanding drugs see "drug users"? I say this because almost everyone has
experience with non-mind-expanding drugs.

I think the war on drugs has done a good job of fanning the flames of fear,
intolerance, ignorance. Right where the system wants us. Much easier to herd
everyone in this state. Individual thinkers are dangerous to the status-quo!
The world would be a much better place if we had something like an annual
shroom day. People would be able to internalize and see how judgemental and
hypocritical they really are most of the time. They would feel more connected
to the world around them like people used to in the not so distant past. I
think the key to evolving is not to put all of our efforts into only science or
only spirituality, but to exercise a balance between the two. I believe
plants can help with that goal. Of course this all sounds scary, stupid, and
irresponsible to those who have never experienced an alternate view of
themselves and the world around them through the use of "drugs".

These days I just use the typical legal drugs: alcohol and cigarettes. Of course
these drugs really don't have any positive benefits. You have to ask yourself
why are these the legal drugs? Society prefers that we are depressed and
killing ourselves off? Doesn't make any sense. Or does it?
 
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