Don’t be mad at me because I am sovereign.

Why Discriminate on Sovereigns?

Go to hell you Statist pig... ;)

If you claim to be sovereign, then do you also acknowledge the sovereignty of those individuals I listed previously? If you wish to be consistent, then you have to honor their sovereignty to do whatever they do, as well.
 
If you claim to be sovereign, then do you also acknowledge the sovereignty of those individuals I listed previously? If you wish to be consistent, then you have to honor their sovereignty to do whatever they do, as well.

I don't see what you are getting at here Theo. I agree that everyone you listed were sovereigns. However, they chose to invade other sovereigns states.
 
Go to hell you Statist pig... ;)

What Theocrat said is not statist; it's theological. Namely, that you don't have the power or authority to do whatever you want in all circumstances whatsoever. You are bound in at least two ways:

1. By your nature = you have no power to, for example, teleport yourself onto another planet. That's simply not in your natural, God-given ability.

2. Morally = for example, you have no legitimate authority to murder someone in cold blood; such an act is contrary to the character of God.


This is true whether you believe it and acknowledge God, or not; that's the way it is. That's natural law. It has nothing to do with statism.
 
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Human Sovereignty Becomes Surivival of the Fittest

I don't see what you are getting at here Theo. I agree that everyone you listed were sovereigns. However, they chose to invade other sovereigns states.

So what? As sovereigns, they can do whatever they want as part of their rule. It gets back to the "might makes right" rule of sovereignty. If one person can make a claim of sovereignty, then so can another. There is no rule above any sovereign as to what they can and can't do as an aspect of his sovereignty. That is what I'm getting at. If people can be sovereign, then there is no reason to attack or hate one sovereign for doing that which another sovereign deems inappropriate or evil.
 
So what? As sovereigns, they can do whatever they want as part of their rule. It gets back to the "might makes right" rule of sovereignty. If one person can make a claim of sovereignty, then so can another. There is no rule above any sovereign as to what they can and can't do as an aspect of his sovereignty. That is what I'm getting at. If people can be sovereign, then there is no reason to attack or hate one sovereign for doing that which another sovereign deems inappropriate or evil.

Well if we lookat it as each individual as a sovereign state, then each state, in and of itself has complete autonomy. It is only when one state invades another sovereigns nation, and is either defeated or triumphant that others, or history, or revisionist history judges.
Their is no "might makes right" rule to sovereignty. I can respect your nation as long as your nation does not choose to invade mine. Likewise I will not invade your nation. Because, truthfully, your nation produces nothing which I would choose to annex.
 
Wow .... are you guys really going to ruin a great piece on individual liberty by arguing the semantics of the word " soveriegn" ??
 
Wow .... are you guys really going to ruin a great piece on individual liberty by arguing the semantics of the word " soveriegn" ??

That's what libertarians do. Get used to it if you're going to stick around.
 
That's what libertarians do. Get used to it if you're going to stick around.

downplay individual liberty ?? I don't think so

...and I'll stick around if I damn well please, afterall , I'm a sovereign man.
 
downplay individual liberty ?? I don't think so

...and I'll stick around if I damn well please, afterall , I'm a sovereign man.

That's quite a leap from arguing semantics to "downplaying individual liberty."

I never suggested you should depart either. You're touchy.
 
"The individual who is not anchored in God can offer no resistance on his own resources to the physical and moral blandishments of the world.” - Carl G. Jung

Naturally... But then I also think about Lord of The Flies...
 
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That's quite a leap from arguing semantics to "downplaying individual liberty."

I never suggested you should depart either. You're touchy.

Well it depends on what your definition of "touchy" is. Some would say it is taking offense with slight cause. But can anyone really be touchy ?? Isn't grounds for being offended purely subjective , and what one person would consider touchy , another person may consider ....


Sorry , I was just doing what we Libertarians do.
 
Well it depends on what your definition of "touchy" is. Some would say it is taking offense with slight cause. But can anyone really be touchy ?? Isn't grounds for being offended purely subjective , and what one person would consider touchy , another person may consider ....


Sorry , I was just doing what we Libertarians do.

"Touchy," in this case was interpreting what I said as "STFU and GTFO!"
 
Individual Sovereignty

First, great piece of writing, Rayzer. May I quote you elsewhere?

I notice that some people are already mad at you because you are self-sovereign and dare to say so.

Individual liberty does mean individual sovereignty. Each person is a self-owner, and must constantly choose between good and evil. I noticed that Theo completely ignored Rayzer's statement that this human self-ownership, brought about by human nature is part of the natural law. But further, Theo misunderstands the nature of individual sovereignty when he claims that individual sovereignty means the sovereignty of one human being over others, or even human power to change the natural law. For example, Theo says:

This whole idea that man is sovereign really fits into the hands of elitists, both nationally and globally. They, of course, believe they are sovereign over the masses, and therefore, they can tell them what to do and how to live. To them, they can control the media, the banks, the food supply, and everything else involving the affairs of men, according to their whims.

Notice here that Theo says "this whole idea that man is sovereign" has no object. Theo does not state what he thinks Rayzer's individual sovereignty applies to, and thus sets up a convenient straw man. A careful reading of Rayzer's original statement makes it clear that Rayzer was claiming his sovereignty over himself, and recognizes the same for others; but Theo conveniently neglects that in order to get up onto a religious soapbox. He has a particular notion of G-d ("Trinitarian Dominionist") that he says we all "must recognize." In other words, he wants to force us to recognize his particular theology.

I for one, do not agree with it. And as a self-sovereign person, my non-agreement is Theo's problem, but not mine. As Thomas Jefferson recognized:

. . .that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness . . . (Preamble to the Virginia Declaration of Religious Freedom, 1785)

Again, Rayzer's claim of sovereignty was that each person is himself sovereign and need recognize no other human being as sovereign over any other. This is the meaning of liberty, and this recognition of individual sovereignty originating from the natural law is the basis of the non-initiation principle. Since each person is self-sovereign, then one person has no right to initiate force against another because that would be a violation of that other person's sovereignty.

That free human beings can and must decide how to respond when another uses force against them in order to subjugate them does not for one moment obviate that person's sovereignty over himself. That choice of how to respond (whether to fight or to live to fight another day) is not an abdication of self-sovereignty but rather an exercise of it; this is something that the great religious martyrs understood well. There is a point where one must choose to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees. But where that point is located is the decision of each individual, and his alone.

Contrary to Theo's argument, self-sovereignty is man's proper nature, and the only guarantee against tyranny and oppression. It is the idea that some people are not self-sovereign that produces the elitism that Theo is concerned about.
 
If you claim to be sovereign, then do you also acknowledge the sovereignty of those individuals I listed previously? If you wish to be consistent, then you have to honor their sovereignty to do whatever they do, as well.

What are you, ten Theo? That is not what was said at all sovereignty does NOT mean you have to respect anybody else's right to do "whatever they want". Read the definition - "within limitations".

If God were sovereign over us would he allow people to question His existence? He made us sovereign over ourselves, He only wants to reign over those that willingly submit to Him. People chose their own actions, they just don;t get to chose the consequences.

Admit you were wrong, for once. Grow up.
 
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