Does America need a standing army?

Should the US government have a standing army?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 35.2%
  • No

    Votes: 116 64.8%

  • Total voters
    179
All this extremist rhetoric about being "enslaved" by a standing army is silly.

You didn't watch this video did you?



You are free to believe whatever you want.

But if you say something nutty, expect to be called on it.

Fair enough?

"Nutty" is believing that the military won't do what it's already done on more than one occasion. "Nutty" is ignoring the reason for the posse comitatus act.
 
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You didn't watch this video did you?



No, I didn't, but I'm pretty sure I know what's in it, this has been discussed to death on these boards.

I'm pretty sure that nothing that happened during Katrina would equate to what it would be like to be occupied by a hostile nation, though I'm sure the extremists among you will continue to try and equate the two.
 
... I've never read anywhere that the constitution forbids militias from having a navy. It does grant cg authority to maintain a navy as opposed to raising an army.

Article 1 section 10 clause 3

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
 
The fact that an invasion may be expensive has never been much of a deterrent in the past.

As far as the "sea" is concerned, I agree that the Chinese or Russians or whomever would not have the capability (today, at least) to establish a beach head.

However, should they enter into an agreement or alliance with a nation like Mexico, that problem would largely be solved. A military operation staged from Mexico, opposed only by militia and guys with guns, would result in a quick victory for the Enemy, and an occupation.

Sure, those occupiers may, in time, choose to leave, but as I stated in my last post, I don't think most Americans would consider "let the enemy invade us and occupy us and enslave us for years while we wait for our guerrilla forces to annoy them enough to make them leave" to be an adequate level of defense.

Some of the extremists among you might think that's a great solution, but I suspect 99.9% of Americans would disagree...

And so you believe the Chinese and/or Russians would be able to sneak massive amounts of troops, tanks, supplies and fighter jets into Mexico without us noticing? I have 3 words for you. Cuban missile crisis! An operation like that would take months to set up (at least) and it would somehow have to deal with the threat of American attack from sea and/or air. In short, that's a pipe dream.

Unless they solve the naval/aerial situation, they will be cutoff of supplies and reinforcements while in Mexico. Nobody would ever try, and if they did, they could no take a single state. The logistics are too insane.

Yeah, that too. Maybe the Chinese and Russians don't need logistics like we do? ;)
 
The militia would never turn on americans and would be totally peaceful:rolleyes:
The majority of the indiscriminate slaughter of of native americans were done by wonderful militias, as opposed to the US army.

Governor John Evans of Colorado Territory sought to open up the Cheyenne and Arapaho hunting grounds to white development. The tribes, however, refused to sell their lands and settle on reservations. Evens decided to call out volunteer militiamen under Colonel John Chivington to quell the mounting violence.
Evans used isolated incidents of violence as a pretext to order troops into the field under the ambitious, Indian-hating territory military commander Colonel Chivington. Though John Chivington had once belonged to the clergy, his compassion for his fellow man didn't extend to the Indians.
These Indian fighters were led by an old Franklinite militiaman from Tennessee named Hiram "Big Tooth" Gregory who came from Sullivan County Tennessee at the settlement of Franklin and had fought many Franklinite campaigns under John Sevier to eliminate all the traditional Thunderbolt Cherokees totally and without mercy.
The peaceful Shoshone camp was attacked at dawn by Colonel Patrick Edward O'Connor and his militia from Salt Lake City, UT. The Bear River camp was in Washington Territory. Not even a part of the territory O'Connor was sent to watch and protect pony express riders and telegraph lines. O'Connor also brought howitzers, but the snows were to deep. It was this bit of luck that allowed a few Shoshone to escape. Only a very few did escape. 55,000 bullets were used to kill a sleepy camp of about 300.
The Gnadenhutten massacre, also known as the Moravian massacre, was the killing on March 8, 1782, of ninety-six Christian Lenape (Delaware) by colonial American militia from Pennsylvania during the American Revolutionary War. The incident took place at the Moravian missionary village of Gnadenhütten, Ohio, near present-day Gnadenhutten.
The murder of more than 150 Wintu people in the Hayfork Valley of California, by 70 men led by Trinity County sheriff William H. Dixon, in retribution for the killing of Col. John Anderson.
Major Gabriel J. Rains, Commanding Officer of Fort Humboldt at the time, reported to his commanding officer that a local group of vigilantes had resolved to "kill every peaceable Indian - man, woman, and child."[7] The vigilantes, calling themselves the Humboldt Volunteers, Second Brigade, had been formed in early February of 1860 in the inland town of Hydesville, one of the ranching communities in the Nongatl area. They spent most of February "in the field" attacking Indians along the Eel River. A petition had been sent to California Governor John G. Downey asking that the Humboldt Volunteers be mustered into service and given regular pay.[8] Downey declined the petition, stating that the U.S. Army was sending an additional Company of Regulars to Fort Humboldt.[1]
 
The fact that an invasion may be expensive has never been much of a deterrent in the past.

As far as the "sea" is concerned, I agree that the Chinese or Russians or whomever would not have the capability (today, at least) to establish a beach head.

However, should they enter into an agreement or alliance with a nation like Mexico, that problem would largely be solved. A military operation staged from Mexico, opposed only by militia and guys with guns, would result in a quick victory for the Enemy, and an occupation.

Sure, those occupiers may, in time, choose to leave, but as I stated in my last post, I don't think most Americans would consider "let the enemy invade us and occupy us and enslave us for years while we wait for our guerrilla forces to annoy them enough to make them leave" to be an adequate level of defense.

Some of the extremists among you might think that's a great solution, but I suspect 99.9% of Americans would disagree...

No, I didn't, but I'm pretty sure I know what's in it, this has been discussed to death on these boards.

I'm pretty sure that nothing that happened during Katrina would equate to what it would be like to be occupied by a hostile nation, though I'm sure the extremists among you will continue to try and equate the two.

So you honestly believe that Katrina is as worse as it could get? Seriously? If we had a total financial meltdown, 1923 style German hyperinflation, a total collapse of the banking system and word from our government that we were going to get stuck with the bill for all of the banking shenanigans in the form of higher taxes that people wouldn't get seriously pissed and Greece would look like a day in the park? I'm not talking "extremism" here. Ron Paul has predicted much of that if we don't get our financial house in order. Maybe he hasn't specifically talked about the reaction of the people, but he's certainly talked about how bad the financial crisis could get. Katrina is nothing in comparison.
 
You are free to believe whatever you want.

But if you say something nutty, expect to be called on it.

Fair enough?

If I am free to disagree with you then I should also be free to not pay for the taxes that go to pay for a standing army. It would be meaningless to say that I am allowed to disagree but forced to pay. I am not free if I am not allowed to act. So would you support the government in forcing me to pay for the standing army that I disagree with and you agree with?
 
The militia would never turn on americans and would be totally peaceful:rolleyes:
The majority of the indiscriminate slaughter of of native americans were done by wonderful militias, as opposed to the US army.

So let's go ahead and fully disarm the American public because only the U.S. Army can be peaceful. :rolleyes: Yeah, general Sherman was peaceful. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the ultimate result. But the starvation Sherman left in his wake of civilians isn't something to sneeze at.
 
So let's go ahead and fully disarm the American public because only the U.S. Army can be peaceful. :rolleyes: Yeah, general Sherman was peaceful. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the ultimate result. But the starvation Sherman left in his wake of civilians isn't something to sneeze at.
IOU a +rep when I get some more ammo. :cool:
 
if i am free to disagree with you then i should also be free to not pay for the taxes that go to pay for a standing army. It would be meaningless to say that i am allowed to disagree but forced to pay. I am not free if i am not allowed to act. So would you support the government in forcing me to pay for the standing army that i disagree with and you agree with?

qed :)
 
Uh-huh. That's why the proper defense of this country requires a modern navy and/or airforce. For those who can't deal with the fact that the founders couldn't read the future and write the words "air force" into the constitution, the air force could be folded into the navy which arguably has better pilots. I'm not sure why your side insists on ignoring this important detail. You know what stopped Hitler at the Battle of Britain? It wasn't the army. They were too busy being rescued across the English channel by the navy and the "militia navy". (Basically fishermen using whatever would float to bring troops back across). Still despite Germany having the best army in Europe, they couldn't land. Why? Because of the R.A.F.! You can't land an army unless you have first established air and/or sea superiority. And if you some how manage to sneak a few troops in they'll be cut off and killed without support.

I have clearly stated on two occasions that the Chinese or Russians (I'll just use "enemy" from now on) or whatever had no ability to move an army here if our navy was there to stop them.

I also stated that it would be possible for the Enemy to move soldiers to an area where a seaborn invasion would not be necessary. Soldiers could be moved to, for example, Mexico, THEN war could be declared. At that point, the navy would be nearly useless, and the Air Force little better, at stopping a ground invasion.

I'm also a little unclear as to why some of you seem to think having a huge Navy and Air Force is acceptable, yet having ANY Army is "wrong." Sounds a bit deranged to me. Why is it okay to have a huge professional AF and Navy, but not have so much as a single professional soldier? At least the "we don't need any professional military" types are consistent.

Hmmmm....how many years did it take Hezbollah to beat back one of the best armies in the world? Oh, that's right. It didn't take years. It only lasted 34 days. And their best weapons were RPGs, AK-47s and unguided rockets. They had no Stinger missiles that could take out helicopters and slow flying troop transport planes, let alone sophisticated SAMs or fighter jets.

Hezbollah didn't "beat back" anything. Their conventional military efforts were woefully ineffective. They lost ground continually to a very small Israeli invasion force (about 2% of the IDF was involved in the invasion) until the Israelis halted their advance, then settled into guerrilla warfare until POLITICAL PRESSURE forced the Israelies to pull back. If you think that's an example of a militia preventing an invasion, you are sadly mistaken.

I'm not worried about the "indignity" of a standing army. I'm worried about the standing army contributing to our bankruptcy and then enforcing martial law as we are taken into receivership. Your side of the argument conveniently forgets that point.

Yet you advocate a large Navy and Air Force, which are vastly more expensive to operate than a small Army. Now I'm really confused.

Now maybe an army of the size klamath is advocating would neither bankrupt the nation nor be strong enough to enslave the rest of us when things go south.

Have you actually read my posts? I've clearly stated a number of times that our entire military (Navy and Air Force, as well as Army) should be vastly reduced in size.

Did they have the same militia structure then that they have now? Maybe they learned their lessons from the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

The only "militias" around today are far worse than what they had back then. Back then, militias, while hardly proficient, were fairly numerous and at least made some attempt to be prepared. Today, the "militias" you see are mostly a bunch of yahoos running around in the woods a few times a year.

Ummm...in 1776 it was the British that were lining up in lines, not the Americans (generally speaking).

Actually, in most of the major battles of the Revolution, the American forces (militia and Continentals) fought the same way the British did- line 'em up and mow 'em down. The British were just better at it. Much better. A source of endless frustration to General Washington.

People read about Concord and think all of the battles were fought that way, but they weren't.


If we went to a militia model and the 2nd amendment was followed as written then any citizen would have access to any infantry weapon and/or an opportunity to train on it. If you're worried about someone going rogue and using a Stinger to take out his ex-wife then keep weapons like that in armories and just provide training on its use.

Not worried at all. I support the second amendment. I just don't think "guys with guns" are going to be very effective at stopping an invasion of a modern army.

As for electronic communications, your average middle schooler shouldn't have any problem with that. I know...I know...the military version of the cell phone is soooo much more complex than the civilian one right? But it doesn't have to be.

I'm not referring to just having a bunch of guys with cell phone, but an organized command structure and organized intelligence gathering capabilities. I think a lot of you have no idea how high tech even the Army has become.


And again quit ignoring the fact that the other side isn't saying don't have a navy or fighter jets or missile defense or SAMs or a professional officer corps or regular training of the militia with modern weapons


How the Hell do you have a "professional officer corps" and good militia training WHEN YOU HAVE NO PROFESSIONAL ARMY?

Do you really think Naval officers are going to be able to train soldiers? That's like grabbing a bunch of soldiers and telling them to operate an aircraft carrier- it ain't going to work.
 
Do i have the right to disagree with you on whether there should be a standing army or not?

Yes. Do I have the right to support having troops here in the U.S without being called a "big government conservative?"
 
TC,

I see you have come and gone again without addressing the MIC. Are you familiar with it now? Did you educate yourself on this basic reason for not having a standing army? Did you at least read the Wikipedia page?

I don't think that we have a standing army for the benefit of defense contractors. We have a standing army to defend freedom and liberty. Even if we didn't have a standing army, defense contractors would still make weapons for our air force to use.
 
If I am free to disagree with you then I should also be free to not pay for the taxes that go to pay for a standing army. It would be meaningless to say that I am allowed to disagree but forced to pay. I am not free if I am not allowed to act. So would you support the government in forcing me to pay for the standing army that I disagree with and you agree with?

Sounds like you are one of the anarchist extremist types who believes there should be no government.

I am NOT an anarchist. I support a limited government, not "no government."

If you are looking for someone to support your ideas on some sort of "anarchotopia," I'm not your guy.

I live in the real world.
 
They would airborne divisions would never get through modern air and sea defenses in the first place. I know that. They know that. Apparently you don't for some reason. Anyhow while I don't think those divisions you crave so much are even necessary, I could live with them (provided we really allow the 2nd amendment to do its job and any citizen to own any armament any infantryman might have) that's really not what "Traditional Conservative" wants. He wants to maintain a level of military spending of 700 billion. I think that's utterly ridiculous.

And lastly, you still haven't answered the question of why would China invade (the only country with a billion people) when they could just destroy our economy at this point and save the troops?



Ummm....Iran and Iraq fought to a stalemate. We invaded Iraq. So logic would have it that we could invade Iran. If you've read the U.S. army war college report on the Iran/Iraq war then you know that Iraq actually had the better military. Iran just had more people. The Iranians would use "human wave" attacks against Iraqi positions. These were not professional well trained divisions. Sorry but this grossly undercuts your argument.

The Pakistani military? They've got nukes and that's about it. We don't invade Pakistan because they basically have done what we want by creating Al Qaeda and the Taliban. They created Al Qaeda using CIA money under the Carter administration as a means to destabilize the Soviet Union. The created the Taliban, again with CIA money, to re-stabilize Afghanistan. That's why when we invaded Afghanistan, we paused first long enough to allow the Pakistanis to pull their troops out that were fighting with the Taliban.

See:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340165/ns/world_news-brave_new_world/t/airlift-evil/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7718
http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/pak.htm


Speaking of nukes, which country do you think wants to risk nuclear war with the U.S.?



You're ill informed. I've seen the documents as well as the soldiers who talked about doing training exercises against Iraq prior to the invasion of Kuwait. Plus there's CIA documentation of preparation.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB63/doc6.pdf

We knew Saddam was planning to invade Kuwait long before he got permission to invade from U.S. ambassador April Glassby. Just because you might not have been aware of the foreknowledge and preparation doesn't mean it didn't happen.
In case you didn't know it the military trains for missions all of the world all the time. The military trained to seize the oil fields in the mideast during the 70'd oil embargo. They train for ALL kinds of senarios all the time so you could find documentation and live reports of training all over the world.
Your question on why China would invade? Why do we invade? Why did hitler invade, why did the british invade, why did the russians invade why did the egyptians invade, why did the mongol invade, why did the vikings invade etc etc? I don't think that china at this point would invade but the world and leaders change. WE do not hold a monopoly on wanting an empire and never have.

My point on how militias are viewed as weak wasn't meant as applying to Iran. Sorry but nations do not invade unless they believe they can win. I don't want anyone to believe they can win.

I don't agree with TC on maintaining our massive military spending. I believe our military could be cut half or better as our most powerful military might is a good economy and the debt is killing that.
 
Really, this is ridiculous. Anyone who's looked at military spending knows that even our domestic military spending is largely wasteful and unnecessary. Why do you think we had the whole base closing commission some years ago? And some of the bases that were recommended for closing were kept open for political reasons. The bases provided jobs. For many the military is one big jobs program.

Our politicians are always willing to close down military bases here in the U.S and outsource them to Europe. The globalists still have control of our government.
 
So let's go ahead and fully disarm the American public because only the U.S. Army can be peaceful. :rolleyes: Yeah, general Sherman was peaceful. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the ultimate result. But the starvation Sherman left in his wake of civilians isn't something to sneeze at.
Did I say disarm the American people? And I didn't say the US army didn't commit atrocities but I did provide some historical facts showing the militia will turn on american people as well. I am no fan of sherman or custer and have hated him for many years.
 
Sounds like you are one of the anarchist extremist types who believes there should be no government.

I am NOT an anarchist. I support a limited government, not "no government."

If you are looking for someone to support your ideas on some sort of "anarchotopia," I'm not your guy.

I live in the real world.

Be careful. If you call anybody an "anarchist" on these forums, you'll be called a "troll" who "intentionally misrepresents what other people believe." You've been warned.
 
Sounds like you are one of the anarchist extremist types who believes there should be no government.

I am NOT an anarchist. I support a limited government, not "no government."

If you are looking for someone to support your ideas on some sort of "anarchotopia," I'm not your guy.

I live in the real world.

You dodged the question but thats ok. It hurts to realize that a logical and moral argument turns your world upsidedown.

But go ahead and live in the real world where people are not free to disagree with you and your statist friends. Remember everyone a little cancer is better than no cancer.
 
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Concerning all the people who say "why would XYZ invade us."

I don't know. Wars happen for all kinds of reasons. Just because a nation seemingly has no reason to invade us today doesn't mean they may not come up with a good reason down the road.

If we were to go to the extremist route proposed by some of you (no professional army), you leave yourself open to invasion by anyone for any reason.

We've been playing with scenarios like China or Russia. But Hell, if we have no professional Army, MEXICO could even decide to take back Texas, NM, AZ, and maybe CA, and there ain't much we could do to stop them.

The Mexican Army isn't the best in the world today (who's to say what it might be like 20 years from now), but against militia and "guys with guns," they'd have no trouble with the invasion where they could at least rape and pillage. Whether they could hold the ground or not is another story.

And I know, a lot of you laugh and say "we could never go to war with Canada, they are our friends and they are small."

Well, they are our friends NOW, but they haven't always been. And even a relatively small professional army like Canada could cause all kinds of damage against a "guys with guns" type of "army."
 
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