Does America need a standing army?

Should the US government have a standing army?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 35.2%
  • No

    Votes: 116 64.8%

  • Total voters
    179
The 1.5 mil figure came from affa, post #112.

The 1.5 million troops from post 112 is referring to all active duty troops, not just army. It was in response to TC, who claimed we need to have the largest military in the world, and I was pointing out that we don't - we'd need to almost double our military to have the largest military. I was also asking what why in the world we'd need that many active duty troops if all we were doing is defending our country.
 
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If we imagine the scenario where the US was under attack by an enemy capable and willing to use nukes, and you had none to fire back, they wouldn't have to nuke every square inch of the US to get the American people to end their resistance... The Japanese took two before they surrendered unconditionally, I honestly don't think it is ever going to take more than one ever again.

They had already surrendered and were already devasted from aerial fire bombings. What the US government did to them was savage and probably intended as a message to the Soviets.
 
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Sorry, but a lot of this stuff just seems crazy to me. Are you suggesting that American citizens should be allowed to own nuclear weapons in order to defend the United States? If not, what kind of weapons would individuals actually own?

Um. No. We have a massive, armed population already. Where in the world did I mention citizens owning nuclear weapons? What?
 
Um. No. We have a massive, armed population already. Where in the world did I mention citizens owning nuclear weapons? What?

I'm just wondering how U.S citizens armed with guns can compete with Chinese nukes.
 
I know you'll never respond to me, because you never do, but here's a thought:

What would you think America's response would be if Mexico suddenly moved, say, 100k of it's 250k (if i remember correctly) army to the US Border to 'protect' it?

Now, what do you think Mexico would think if we suddenly moved, say, 500k (of our just under 1.5million troops) to the Mexico border? Would that not practically force them to move a sizeable number of troops to the border as well, otherwise they might seem 'weak' by your own arguments and statements? Can you not see the fundamental flaw in your reasoning?

I think you should reconsider “Homeland Sentinel”. We would have no thicker line on the southern border than we would on the rest of the US perimeter. The whole world would know we are doing nothing but bringing all troops home and keeping them employed to “defend our soil”. If Mexico doubts it, they could just call the Canadians and ask them if they see the same “human fence”? Actually I think most countries would interpret it as good news, especially the previously “occupied” ones. But if any country tried to interpret such a simple thing as offensive, they would not be credible.
 
A nuke in ANY major city would affect me how? (other than to piss me off)

It's simply unreal that anybody could write anything like that. I've honestly never heard anything so ridiculous and dumbfounding. You honestly think that millions of people dying from a nuclear explosion in a major city wouldn't affect you? You don't believe that an entire city being wiped off the map would affect the economy in any way? We lost over 1 million jobs on 9-11 alone, and that was an attack that killed 3,000 people. What do you think would happen to the economy and our country in general if an entire city was wiped off the map? Our country would cease to exist. The United States of America would be extinct. But I guess that wouldn't even matter to the anarchists. All they care about is getting rid of government at all costs, even if that means the destruction of the United States.
 
what if America falls into Civil war? Don't you need an army to deal with this? I am not saying that a huge army is needed. But I think it's somehow necessary for governments to act immediately if needed. Maybe special forces and well trained marines are good. Remember, the standing army of the united states counts for approximately 1 % of U.S. population, it's a tiny number. However I think with today's technology, that can be considered to be great. America cannot invade the whole world with its current army.

I would say that a standing army is more referred to an army much like Hitler and the Soviet Union had during WW2. See, Nazi Germany had 18 million active duty personnel just within the army. The Red Army consisted of 20 million people, and it was just an army of men. This excludes the Air force, Navy, police etc.
 
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Thanks for laying out your argument so well. You make good points, and I agree that if the US demilitarized tomorrow, it probably wouldn't lead to any kind of imminent military attack. The geopolitics in play in the world today are like a giant cobweb of conflicting interests, with power constantly shifting between factions, and in todays information age world especially the world is a very complex place.. o_0

Thanks for the kind words, they're appreciated. People debating often forget civility on the internet. It's a shame it's that way nowadays, so good to see.

The US withdrawing from foreign wars should have a great positive impact, at least initially. I personally think that the goodwill might be a little short lived, as people tend to be pretty glad when you stop abusing them, but in the long run they're really not going to just forgive you for it. That's going to take a lot more, and a long time probably.

My point is that when you envision how you might wish to change the nature of society, you have to think beyond the present and immediate future, and consider the long term viability of your ideas. The world could look completely different 10 years from now, not to mention 20 years from now. If the US demilitarized to a point where you would be vulnerable to an attack, I believe history sadly demonstrates that it is only a matter of time before someone will attempt to take advantage of your weakness. To a large extent it is human nature I'm afraid, our lust for power and domination over others. We often claim to be above our basic biological nature, but so often I see us just trying to over-rationalize, as we close our eyes to just how much it influences our actions. Case and point being how two people in differing emotional states will react completely differently to the exact same situation.

Some things you just can't ever expect to change, a lot of great poetry has been written about them though.

I absolutely agree about the 'things change'. 100%. Heck, many of the things I, and I bet many of us, were warning against in 1995 were in full effect by 2005, let alone 2011. Things change.

And that's essentially why I'm okay with the navy/air force/trainer/militia plan. It's a solid defense, and it's defensive in nature -- as long as we don't start abusing the AF by sending them on endless bombing runs, but that's a different discussion.

However, ultimately, I believe that we... hmm... this is hard to word, but we often create our own fate. That is, if we plan for war, if we build for war, war will happen. In a way, it must happen. And so I propose building for, working towards, striving for peace. And I believe if a country acts in such a manner -- both in talk and in walk -- one no longer has such a 'target' on it's back. Of course, we can still get attacked. I know terrible things can happen. But we can be nuked, either literally or economically, any day as it is, if it came to that.

There was a time when one could say America was beloved by the world. That time is long gone. But we could be that again, but part of accomplishing that requires not being puffed up like a peacock, thinking we rule the world. With military might comes responsibility (that we've let wane), but also enemies. In fact, that simple fact that we've let our military run so amok in the world is, to me, evidence that we need to take the car keys away from the drunk. We're not responsible enough - at least, not now.

And ultimately, in regards to the title of this thread, I believe a standing army (as in specifically, army) is incredibly dangerous to liberty.
 
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It's simply unreal that anybody could write anything like that. I've honestly never heard anything so ridiculous and dumbfounding. You honestly think that millions of people dying from a nuclear explosion in a major city wouldn't affect you? You don't believe that an entire city being wiped off the map would affect the economy in any way? We lost over 1 million jobs on 9-11 alone, and that was an attack that killed 3,000 people. What do you think would happen to the economy and our country in general if an entire city was wiped off the map? Our country would cease to exist. The United States of America would be extinct. But I guess that wouldn't even matter to the anarchists. All they care about is getting rid of government at all costs, even if that means the destruction of the United States.

We could do without Detroit, and that is closest. It would piss me off.( my sister is near by,, but well outside a blast area) And it might piss off the neighbors as well. perhaps I would get some help from my cousins.

It would not help an invading army at all and would be of no tactical purpose.
I really wonder why people worry about something that is realistically unlikely.
 
what if America falls into Civil war? Don't you need an army to deal with this? I am not saying that a huge army is needed. But I think it's somehow necessary for governments to act immediately if needed.

If America falls into Civil War, the last thing we want would be for America to have a huge standing army. Whose side do you think they're going to be on, ours?
 
I'm just wondering how U.S citizens armed with guns can compete with Chinese nukes.

Why. What would be the purpose of the Chinese nuking the US? Why would they?
It would make occupying and recovering resources in the radioactive areas impossible.
What possible reason would they have to do so?
 
If the Chinese decide to nuke us, no standing army, no navy, no air force, and no amount of nukes will save us.

We could build a missile defense system that's more technologically advanced and designed to even stop nuclear weapons from reaching the ground. Also, if China nuked us, our government would then nuke them and there would be mutual destruction. But my point is that United States citizens are not capable of defending the United States on their own. National defense is something that our government is needed for. If we didn't have a government we wouldn't even have a country. I'm not even talking to the people who say that we should abolish the army and keep the navy and air force. I'm just talking to a very few anarchists on these forums who believe that the 2nd amendment would somehow keep the U.S safe, even without any national defense from our government.
 
Yeah, that sounds like a slogan :-)

I'm sorry, but I'm just being real. I appreciate that you're very angry and that's fine, but your arguments seem to be completely based your own ideals of rugged individualism.

You don't know much about America do you? My attitude is not mine alone.
The area where I live is populated with people like myself. Those that are not die or move.
UP winters will kill you,, or make you stronger.
 
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Why. What would be the purpose of the Chinese nuking the US? Why would they?
It would make occupying and recovering resources in the radioactive areas impossible.
What possible reason would they have to do so?

Just to prove to the United States how dumb we are for abolishing our military.
 
Let a gambler break down knives, gun ownership, and nuclear weapons game theoretically:

We will make several assumptions in the following...that of the two actors in every example, one is a person tending toward violent behavior. We also assume the other agent believes in self defense. Logically two pascifists will not lead to a violent outcome EVER, and if one is a pascifist not a criminally violent actor, again, there will be no violent outcome.

Imagine you have two people who are aware of each other's arms. In the first example we will have unarmed agents, in the seond knife wielders, in the third gun carriers...then we will deduce the effect of nukes.

If two agents are aware of each other's arms, and they get into a dispute, what is the safest situation overall?

We will define "safest overall" as being a weighted average of each outcome, the possibility of any violence altogether, and the deterent factor. We will express serious harm (death and maiming), and moderate harm (rape, assault, or lesser harms that are not necessarily permanent physically).



We will assume that everyone realizes the safest result for you against an unarmed violent attacker is to have a weapon. By this reasoning, if they have a knife, you a safer to have at least a knife, or preferably a gun.

We will also assume everyone knows that criminals inherently do not follow laws, and violent criminals inherently would rather attack someone when they (the attacker) have perfect knowledge of the victim's arms. They would prefer that the victim be unarmed, then to hold a knife, and finally a gun, in that order. They would rather be unsure as to the status of arms of their victim than to KNOW the victim is armed. The fact both weapons are exposed make it easier for the sake of the math, however, when the information is imperfect it is actually safer, because of game theory. When you have 4 possible victims and tell a violent agent there is only one armed (while not saying which one), there is a 75% chance of success, and depending on the value (marginal utility) of the victim, this may be enough to make it "worth it" for the criminal. When you say 2 of the 4 possible victims are armed, but conceal which ones, the criminal has no incentive to victimize these people, and it cannot be "worth it", barring a survival motive like starvation. This is called being "unexploitable". This balance works better, because obviously if the violent actor had perfect knowledge of which 2 possible victims were armed, he would choose to victimize the other two.

We'll also assume the victims are smaller than the violent actors, and for the sake of simplicity, women. This is often the case in real life, and illustrates the importance of arms in society.

Now let's answer our question:


If two agents are aware of each other's arms, and they get into a dispute, what is the safest situation overall?

When two actors have no weapons and are aware of it, the violent actor will use their size advantage to rape or otherwise cause moderate harm to our victim. At an even lack of arms, the vitim is at a serious natural disadvantage. The chance of moderate harm (when harm occurs) will be estimated at 75%, as the violent actor is prone to such behavior. The chance of serious harm is 25%. The chance of no harm will be 10%, given 1 in 10 times the victim will luckily defeat the attacker. The total chance of harm is 90%.

Now, the two actors have knives. The penalty for failure is now increased for the violent actor. The chance of harm altogether is decreased to 80%. The risk of moderate harm is decreased to 50%, but serious harm risks increase to 50%. The chance of no harm is now 20%, 10% when a successful defense happens, and 10% because the blade is a deterent.

The two actors now have guns. The penalty for the violent actor's failure to succeed is further increased. The chance of harm altogether is 60%. The risk of moderate harm is decreased to 25%, while the risk of serious harm increases to 75%. The chance of no harm is now 40%, 10% self defense success, 30% deterent.

So, who is better off?

Let's assume the cases each had 10 trials:

unarmed: 9 of 10 times there was a violent outcome. 1 out of 10 times the victim and criminal escaped rape, assault, or worse. Of the 9 times violence happened, almost 7 of them were rapes or lesser harms (accounting for injuries to the assailant), and a little over 2 of them were maiming or death (accounting for the death of the assailant).

knives: 8 of 10 times there was a violent outcome. 2 out of 10 times the victim and criminal escaped rape, assault, or worse. Of the 8 times violence happened, 4 of them were rapes or lesser harms, 4 of them were maiming or death.

guns: 6 out of 10 times there was a violent outcome. 4 out of 10 times the actors both escaped assault or worse. Of the 6 times violence happened, 1.5 of them were moderate harm, 4.5 of them were serious harm like maiming or death.

Let's compare:

chance of no harm/ chance of harm total/ chance of moderate harm occuring/ chance of serious harm occuring / deterent factor

unarmed 10%(1)/ 90%(9)/ 75%(6.75)/ 25%(2.25)/ 0%

knives 20%(2)/ 80%(8)/ 50%(4)/ 50%(4)/ 10%

guns 40%(4)/ 60%(6)/ 25%(1.5)/ 75%(4.5)/ 30%



The Weighted average:

WA = ((the % of average non-violent outcomes per category)(the # of non-violent outcomes per category) + (the % of avg non-v outcomes per next category)(the # non-v outcomes per category)) / ((the # of non-v outcomes per category) + (the # of non-v per next category))

So,

WA = ((.1 * 1) + (.2 * 2) + (.4 * 4)) / (1 + 2 + 4)
= 2.1 / 7
= 30% (.3)

The total with all is 30% chance of non-violent results.

Is this less or more as weaponry technology increased? Let's exclude guns to see:

WA = ((.1 * 1) + (.2 * 2)) / (1 + 2)
= .5 / 3
= 16.67%(.1667)

The total with unarmed and knife holding situations is 16.67% of non-violent results, nearly half that of the percentages with guns.

Is there less or more unarmed?

the unarmed percentage was 10% for non-violent results.

The increase from 10%, to 16%, to 30% shows how introducing higher levels of weaponry created a larger and larger incentives for non-violent outcomes.


Observations:

It's obvious as we increase the level of mutual arms we increase the chance of nonviolent, not violent, outcomes. What happens is the criminal agent has a lesser and lesser incentive to try and victimize our potential victim. The reason the chances are arbitrarily increased for deterent in guns is the huge increase in death.

In poker there is something called EV, or expected value. In cash games, no one cares if they lose their whole stack of chips, you can just buy-in again. In tournaments, once you lose all your chips (usually once, but certainly finite), you are done and out of the tournament, and your money is lost. In cash you take any close edge if you're ahead, or think you're ahead, because you can buy back in at anytime. Real life doesn't reflect cash games. In tournaments and in real life you get one buy-in (life), and a fatal mistake ends all future possibility for EV. For this reason you will pass on small edges when ahead, in order to "accumulate EV" in the future, when it's more valuable.

So, our criminal agent jumps from a deterent of 10% with unarmed agents, to a deterent factor of 40% with guns, precisely because guns are more likely to kill them. The "mutually assured destruction" is the most powerful deterent to violent behavior. Other EV for the criminal would be victims with lesser levels of arms (or none), perfect info of those arms (like in the example), and getting "the drop" on their victim (catching them by suprise, which we ignore in our examples). The reason I ignore this particular issue is because it's irrelevant in nuclear war, the destruction is mutually assured by computers versed in game theory mathematics.

Conclusion:

Guns=more safety according to game theory. Concealing these weapons make you even safer. Any higher level of weaponry for nonviolent actors also increases the benefit. We also notice law is not a deterent largely for the violent actor, therefore not worth consideration overall. No criminal in prison thought "I'm going to be caught". Well, few anyway.

Also, since mutually assured destruction leads to less and less violent outcomes, it would be predictable and expected that when every nation on Earth has nukes, assuming nukes are still the highest form of arms at that point, there will cease to be major military actions. War, essentially, will be non-existant. It's also predictable that armies, navies, and air forces incapable of stopping these types of attacks will become obsolete, unless used for OFFENSE largely. In any case, to be purely defensive they will require immense downsizing.

No wonder so many nations want nukes...especially those opposed to us! Ever notice that few (Japan is one) of our allies want nukes? When the violent attacker isn't conflicting with you, you don't feel the need to have a nuke to inact game theory. Miracles! When they do want one, it's to defend against a neighbor with them who they are at odds with!

Nuclear weapons are defensive weapons more than they are offensive weapons. The "seen" of Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy (to use the economic parable for a non-economic metaphor) is the attack we did on Japan. The "unseen" is the peaceful resolution of the Cold War, the existance at all of a "cold war", and the steady decline in military fatalities across the globe as better and higher levels of weapon technology becomes available. True, we killed 130,000 civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan over the last 10 years...we killed millions of Vietnamese in less time...and that's 13,000 deaths of civilians a year, the exact same number of Americans killed by guns every year...the flu kills 30,000 Americans a year, and 15,000 American arthritis patients alone die of SAIDs (anti-inflamatory drugs, both over the counter and prescription) as weak as asprin every year in the U.S.

Wars are becoming largely non-threats to American soldiers, and to a lesser extent civilians in the countries we attack. The same is true of our foes legitimately in the fight against us. Yes, we killed a lot of people, but compare the stats to past wars of similar scope....it's decreasing. We've lost far less soldiers in the last ten years than we lost in some BATTLES of the Civil War. This is also why the anti-war movement faces such apathy...the population rises, the number of dead shrink, and so the percentage of impacted citizenry falls (not a reason for draft, please don't start).

I hope everyone can see, nukes are inevitable, and good. Unless you're anti-gun, there is no reason to be anti-nuke. Well, unless you're a primitivist who wants to ban technology. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. True, it only takes one nut, and those nuts will exist (and have), but look at the numbers above. Do you find them illogical? They are made up, arbitrary, but are they not rational? Could you not look up stats at the CDC and Department of Justice to plug in and prove my point?

I'm not out on a limb here. Nukes are defensive weapons...but only when not used. When used they are either offensive or simply retaliatory. If they can be made precision enough to only attack a certain square milage where government is, like say Iran's government, and not to target civilians like they mostly do now, then I'd say they are rather likable. Unfortunately, they target civilians, and give a threat of total annihilation necessary to game theory and being unexploitable mathematically...so they are good, defensive mostly, but not likable.

I better get rep'd for this one...lol.
 
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I voted yes. Because I think America is worth fighting for and one of these days someone's gonna have to save us come hell or highwaters, I would hope the First Marines and National Guard. God forbid we the people can't. :cool:
 
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