Do you support the removal of all trade barriers with other nations?

Do you support the removal of all trade barriers?

  • Yes

    Votes: 85 71.4%
  • Conditionally

    Votes: 19 16.0%
  • No

    Votes: 15 12.6%

  • Total voters
    119
Manufacturing_Data.jpg

Yep, welcome to the greased skids of fiat money and "free trade"... an illusion of wealth waiting to implode. ;) This country better hope that exported industries return BEFORE attempting a reduction in the supply of fiat money, though.
 
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I voted 'conditionally.'

It does not matter, though. Tariffs will not be raised to amount to much in my lifetime, because doing so doesn't not jive with the plans of the establishment to wreck our economy and throw us into a state of complete dependency.

EDIT: So, it does not matter what we want, the Fed has the system set up just the way it wants it. Keep the Americans distracted with cheap foreign goods, make them think that foreign manufacturers are simply more competitive and we've been beaten fair-n-square, and that we can go on consuming, consuming, and consuming our way to prosperity.
 
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What? This doesn't even make any sense. The average family does have a mortgage and some credit card debt, but that's hardly what the economy is built on---the massive debt the US has it accumulated by the Federal government, not individual citizens---it has little to do with standard of living or anything----the case could be much better made that the debt has reduced or is holding down our current standard of living, not sustaining it.

The federal government takes on its debt in the name of the citizens of the USA. It is able to do this because we allow them to. That is implicit consent, more or less. It can certainly be argued to be that in any event. Therefore, we consent to take on that debt personally, each of us - so from a way of looking at things we indeed are very much part of the problem.

That said, it can also be argued that the system is set up in such a way as to disallow individuals from "opting out", and by virtue of the implication of force and violence, is wholly immoral - a position I would accept as valid.
 
Guess what? Hong Kong is a recipient of business transferred from other nations under the guise of "free trade". ;) In other words, if other nations still retained their manufacturing capability, Hong Kong might not be so wealthy, eh?

It's really funny that you're blaming free market even though you recognize that free market is what turned HongKong from a third-world $hithole into a prosperous nation. :rolleyes: Quite ironic.

Yep, welcome to the greased skids of fiat money and "free trade"... an illusion of wealth waiting to implode. ;) This country better hope that exported industries return BEFORE attempting a reduction in the supply of fiat money, though.

What that graph shows is that America's manufacturing has been increasing & over the years America has produced more with less & less workers which means our productivity has gone up which has allowed people to move into service industry which has caused the standard of living to go up.

The industries have left because of high corporate taxes, high regulation, union-lobbying, minimum-wage laws, etc etc if those are are gotten rid of then a lot of those industries will be back. Hell, as Ron has mentioned in his recent debates, trillions of American corporations' money is saved overseas because of high taxes, if taxes are considerably lowered then that money will be back & it'll craete jobs & REAL WEALTH (ie goods/services) in America.

I voted 'conditionally.'

It does not matter, though. Tariffs will not be raised to amount to much in my lifetime, because doing so doesn't not jive with the plans of the establishment to wreck our economy and throw us into a state of complete dependency.

EDIT: So, it does not matter what we want, the Fed has the system set up just the way it wants it. Keep the Americans distracted with cheap foreign goods, make them think that foreign manufacturers are simply more competitive and we've been beaten fair-n-square, and that we can go on consuming, consuming, and consuming our way to prosperity.

Seriously, why is it that so many baby-boomers are sold on "manufacturing creates prosperity" myth? Manufacturing are largely low-paid, low-skilled jobs & if you guys like them so much then just wait a little till depression sets in & Americans' living standards go down then all your favorite manufacturing low-paid jobs will be back. :rolleyes:
 
I've voted Yes because trade barriers never help.

Some have talked about tariffs & retaliatory tariff-policy being good, etc but I've a few contentions.

Import tariffs just increase the cost of goods within the country as it adds to the price of goods & thereby all Americans are forced to buy costlier goods & services, & remember, living standards are dictated by goods & services which is the "real wealth" so the less Americans are able to enjoy them, lower their living standards.

On the other hand, export tariffs ( & even minimum-wage, regulations, high taxes, etc) cause the price of exported goods to go up which means fewer people want to buy them so fewer businesses are interested in producing them within America which means fewer jobs are created within America.
 
I've voted Yes because trade barriers never help.

Some have talked about tariffs & retaliatory tariff-policy being good, etc but I've a few contentions.

Import tariffs just increase the cost of goods within the country as it adds to the price of goods & thereby all Americans are forced to buy costlier goods & services, & remember, living standards are dictated by goods & services which is the "real wealth" so the less Americans are able to enjoy them, lower their living standards.

On the other hand, export tariffs ( & even minimum-wage, regulations, high taxes, etc) cause the price of exported goods to go up which means fewer people want to buy them so fewer businesses are interested in producing them within America which means fewer jobs are created within America.

Absolutely right. However we've already had a lengthy discussion on this to no avail, so it may fall on deaf ears. Have you read the rest of the thread?
 
LoL ... yeah right ... Let's return to a strictly constitutional currency based on gold and silver coinage if debt has "little to do with standard of living or anything" ... ;)

Thanks for completely twisting my words around. First of all, you equate debt with purely a fiat standard. While it could be argued debt is far more tenable, for a country, that's on a fiat standard, having a gold standard won't instantly fix our debt related problems---if anything, the government will run to debt even more if we have a gold standard since they cannot rely on quantitative easing to fix their budget issues. And again, you conflate personal debt with public/governmental debt---my point still stands.

[quoe]LoL again ... "Over the years", shouldn't one expect manufacturing to increase, at least a tad? ;) Talk about "a complete strawman" .... What does "gone up" over the years mean in comparison with likely manufacturing levels if such jobs weren't exported overseas? Answer: zilch. Lastly, in a healthy economy, increased efficiencies should simply mean the reallocation of resources to other industries within the US.[/quote]

As the graph posted above aptly demonstrates, manufacturing as, in fact gone up significantly---the amount of manufacturing jobs has dropped for two reasons (1)Cheaper labor overseas (2)Less workers required to do the same amount of work. Yes, there has been regulations that have pushed it overseas....I'm in full favor of rolling back of a lot of regulations---that said, this still won't cause manufacturing to suddenly come flooding back in---our labor is better economically employed elsewhere...it's just thew ay the division of labor works--it's better for consumers and society when people/nations/etc specialize in producing one thing over trying to produce everything.


Guess what? Hong Kong is a recipient of business transferred from other nations under the guise of "free trade". ;) In other words, if other nations still retained their manufacturing capability, Hong Kong might not be so wealthy, eh?

*facepaws* Do you even know what you're talking about? Of course Hong Kong buys and sells products from other countries...that's free trade, as well---they also offer services to their own people's and other nations, abroad. To conflate that as anything other than free trade is ludicrous, at best, and grasping for straws, at worst.

No one here is saying that manufacturing should be abolished and done away with EVERYWHERE in the world---there's always a place for it, somewhere---we're just advocating letting the market pick who is the best manufacturer of said product as opposed the government erecting trade barriers that will ultimately lower our standard of living.
 
Speaking in generalities, manufacturing is pretty much done by China and Hong Kong, etc. High tech jobs and design jobs that can be uprooted are in India. Office work and customer support jobs are also moving to India. Then there are the jobs filled now by HB-1s and finally increasing mechanization/automation (which, granted, has always happened)... In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.

Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us? What replaces all that's been lost? Some here criticize the blue collar work, saying we don't need it anyway...but what about those people who aren't fit for college? I even had this question back when we were still in the "high tech jobs will fix everything" phase. You know, before they were shipped out too. Not everyone's into that sort of thing. Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?

This seems like a game of musical chairs, doesn't it? I swear I'm not being a troll. It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.

Thoughts?

------------------------------

Also, I'm in the midst of reading the info Individual cited. A little busy to respond point for point, ATM. Although a lot of what was said tends to gloss over points I made or questions I raised, some of it has been very interesting and challenged my preconceptions. Also, don't call me a liberal. That's just really annoying and petty. My political views don't fit any one mold. There are a lot of things I fall into the libertarian camp on. This is just an area where we differ. I don't automatically believe that what's good for corporate America is good for me. I believe all things work in moderation, and maybe this free trade (for others) is something we've pigged out on to our detriment.
 
Seriously, why is it that so many baby-boomers are sold on "manufacturing creates prosperity" myth? Manufacturing are largely low-paid, low-skilled jobs & if you guys like them so much then just wait a little till depression sets in & Americans' living standards go down then all your favorite manufacturing low-paid jobs will be back. :rolleyes:

First. I'm not a baby boomer, I'm early gen Y.

Second, I simply appreciate the vulnerability of not being able to produce for oneself. I understand that under normal circumstances, division of labor is the most effective means of economic growth. We are not under 'normal' circumstances. We have a heavily managed economy and the establishment has been grooming the sheeple for a lifestyle of dependency. Dependency on others, but even more so, dependence on the state. It isn't a dependence formed by some 'free market' or 'mutual benefit', it is forged by policy, and therefore is FAKE.

We lost manufacturing because of government policies, not because of some natural 'free market shift'. We think we can get economic recovery from consumption, and it's because our entire currency is based on debt and empty promises. Thus far, there has been no penalty for unpaid debts. When the shit hits the fan, we will have to produce for ourselves.

It will be at that point, that we will ask,"Where have the manufacturers gone?"
 
Speaking in generalities, manufacturing is pretty much done by China and Hong Kong, etc. High tech jobs and design jobs that can be uprooted are in India. Office work and customer support jobs are also moving to India. Then there are the jobs filled now by HB-1s and finally increasing mechanization/automation (which, granted, has always happened)... In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.

Sweat?

Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us?

One doesn't. The answer depends on what is really happening in the world, and that is something of which we cannot be entirely certain at the root levels. Is the market "organic" in its function, or are there "artificial" manipulations at work pushing the market in a given direction? If the latter, what is the source, what are the goals, who will be affected, and how?

We are talking of a very large and complex entity, the market. There are so many variables that it comes into question whether reliable prediction can be accomplished, especially when there are so many unknowns at play.

What replaces all that's been lost? Some here criticize the blue collar work, saying we don't need it anyway...but what about those people who aren't fit for college? I even had this question back when we were still in the "high tech jobs will fix everything" phase. You know, before they were shipped out too. Not everyone's into that sort of thing. Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?

Valid questions, none of which have the globalists answered satisfactorily.

This seems like a game of musical chairs, doesn't it?

In many ways, yes. But the truth predicates on knowing enough about what is really going on. If the market is indeed "organic", the answers will be very different from those if it is being manipulated. If it is being manipulated, wide vistas of manifold possibilities open up to us, but most likely there is a strong element of power consolidation at play at the very least.

I swear I'm not being a troll. It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.

Thoughts?

If we assume that the market is being manipulated, that it is being done competently, and that the intentions behind it are purely innocent and good (a big mouthful, admittedly) and is aimed at raising the material wealth of all people in the world, there are a few consequences that I see.

First, for a long time there has been a profound imbalance in the distribution of wealth across the globe, most of it concentrated in the "west", the reasons for which are many. For instance, the focus on individualism in places such as the USA has provided the environment of opportunity by which people have been able to pursue their own best interests. A general consequence of this has been the wealth "draft" that has carried along huge numbers of others, e.g. through the creation of jobs, as well as products and services for which people are not only willing to pay, but whose lives are presumably improved significantly by them. This is called "win win". Once this situation bootstrapped itself beyond a point, it became very nearly self-sustaining and wild growth became possible.

Contrast that with other places such as China, Soviet Union, many European nations, and the myriad petty and bald-faced tyrannies of Africa and South America where peoples' freedoms and prerogatives were tightly reined. In such places stagnation was the result, at best. More often, the societies suffered greatly not only in terms of lagging far behind in the development of material wealth, but also in terms of political turmoil. "The states" in question expended unimaginable energies in corralling "the people", very often at the end of a gun, employing torture and murder and generally wreaking untold havoc, death, and misery on vast numbers of people.

If we look at the state of the world, ca. 1989, this grossly and mainly artificially induced state of imbalance in the wealth of nations was, more or less, at its apex (not really in some ways, but there is no point in discussing these arcane points here). Fast forward to, say, 2000, and what do we see? The collapsed Soviet Union replaced with numerous smaller and relatively free nations, all of which are now eagerly playing catch up with the west. Add to that the case of China, who had been on that path since the mid-70s, and by 2000 was enjoying the benefits of "free trade" with the rest of the world, especially the USA.

Manufacturing fled US and other shores because of the advantages provided by a government-rigged labor market. As manufacturing and other jobs flew the coop for Chinese and Indian shores, the products and services now being provided by the Chinese were to be sold to whom? The west, of course. Who else could afford them? Not even the Chinese can readily afford many of the things that we in the west take for granted. This imbalance is the remnant of the previous condition wherein freedom was denied to so many. While the west became prosperous, the rest languished in relative material poverty.

Now that some large proportion of the rest of the world is getting into the game on the supply-side, they can sell only in those markets that can afford to buy what they offer. Again, the west. Until the average prosperity in the rest of the world rises beyond some threshold, we are going to have an imbalance between supply and demand. Manufacturing for the current market is currently covered in the main by China. Until the demand side of the market increases to the point where the slack in Chinese and other off-shore manufacturing is taken up, other more costly labor markets are going to "suffer". The longer China maintains a rigged labor market, the longer the rest of the world will have to struggle with establishing, keeping, and growing domestic manufacturing jobs.

The western "free world" pined for the end of the Soviet Union and "democracy" and "freedom" for nations like China. Well, they got what they wanted and a consequence of opening up those once closed markets, was the loss some of our own markets on the supply side. Those other nations are full of smart and motivated people who are champing at the bit to get a taste of "freedom" and improved wealth. They are willing to it for less - they are ABLE to do it for less because their costs of living are far lower than ours.

Opening trade willy nilly to comparatively impoverished nations who cannot offer balanced trade conditions is a dangerous game that stands to put one's own economy into some trouble. US-China trade relations were opened in just that manner and we are suffering the consequences.

I cannot call it right or wrong, but the results have been unpleasant. It seems to me that a more measured approach to "free trade" would have been wiser.
 
Speaking in generalities, manufacturing is pretty much done by China and Hong Kong, etc. High tech jobs and design jobs that can be uprooted are in India. Office work and customer support jobs are also moving to India. Then there are the jobs filled now by HB-1s and finally increasing mechanization/automation (which, granted, has always happened)... In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.

Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us? What replaces all that's been lost? Some here criticize the blue collar work, saying we don't need it anyway...but what about those people who aren't fit for college? I even had this question back when we were still in the "high tech jobs will fix everything" phase. You know, before they were shipped out too. Not everyone's into that sort of thing. Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?

This seems like a game of musical chairs, doesn't it? I swear I'm not being a troll. It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.

Thoughts?

------------------------------

Also, I'm in the midst of reading the info Individual cited. A little busy to respond point for point, ATM. Although a lot of what was said tends to gloss over points I made or questions I raised, some of it has been very interesting and challenged my preconceptions. Also, don't call me a liberal. That's just really annoying and petty. My political views don't fit any one mold. There are a lot of things I fall into the libertarian camp on. This is just an area where we differ. I don't automatically believe that what's good for corporate America is good for me. I believe all things work in moderation, and maybe this free trade (for others) is something we've pigged out on to our detriment.

I know, I was irritated and ProIndividual seems to have been on the verge of exploding. If you really aren't a troll then you have my apologies.

Yes, the free market is not perfect. We never said it was. Out of all options it is simply the best. However, I take exception to people assuming that we can just centrally plan our way out of any problem. I also get annoyed with the people who get so wrapped up in their NWO conspiracies and chest thumping nationalism that they propose this stuff.

You are correct that the 'new configuration' might not work out for everyone. It's a problem of skill specialization. However, you can't fix it by passing legislation. Ignoring government granted monopoly privileges, businesses are produced and expanded by consumer demand. The new configuration will automatically be better for the majority of people. I dare you to find a way to fix this specialization problem without making everything worse. Ultimately I would rather deal with some people out of the job than go down the dangerous road of granting special privileges to business. What is good for the corporations is not always good for the people. See what I did there?

Picking winners and losers arbitrarily like this will ensure that everyone loses.

Now to comment on something you posted earlier about regulations. Have you considered that their might be a difference between regulations that protect individuals and their property from harm and regulations that dictate how businesses do their job or shield them from competition? Usually when free marketeers speak of regulations they are not referring to the former. All the word 'regulate' means is to set standards. This is just a semantics game. Most regulations, so called, are used to shield politically connected businesses from competition. It's not hard to say 'harm someone and you go to jail', so why all the hullabaloo about it? Why do we have like 78000 pages of regulations? It's a political con game and nothing more.
 
In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.

We should do what we CAN do, jobs will always be available in the free market as the capital is directed to the most productive areas to maximize jobs as well as the "real wealth" (ie goods/services)

Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us?

Nobody knows the "new configuration" but if you allow freedom to rule then those who are willing to work will find ways to provide themselves a decent life as per their skill.

"Markets" are like a natural phenomena like Earth rotating the Sun, gravity, etc; you can't expect humans to "run" the markets "properly" because no human has all the information needed to run them "correctly"; it's an 'order out of chaos' phenomenon where infinite factors are at work which can't even be comprehended or quantified by humans & by interfering in the markets, we only end up hurting ourselves as a whole & some people unfairly benefit while other unfairly suffer.

Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?

Why are American steelworkers ENTITLED to anything more than what other steelworkers are getting? They're not. If they're willing to work hard then they'll find something else to do.

On the other hand, if you put tarrifs & taxes on foreign steel just to "help" American steelworkers then that means the prices of steel within America go up & that means EVERYONE in America must pay higher prices for goods & services which are directly or indirectly affected by steel prices which means Americans as a whole have a lower standard of living than they otherwise would've had. Why make everyone pay for a few people? And it doesn't just stop at steel, then other workers might ask for protection from imports & so on & this whole process leads to lobbying & corporatism as unions & big corporations get involved & then over a period, it just becomes a mess.

So the rules of the free market are simple, NO ONE should get any favors from the government because when one person or group get them then it's just a slippery slope & the whole system becomes where everyone is trying to benefit at the cost of someone else & then whoever can offer enough bribes to the politicians & bureaucrats, be it in the form of votes or money or whatever, ends up benefitting at the cost of honest hardworking people.

It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.

Thoughts?

Where's the economy where everyone has to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist? There's no such thing, other jobs are always there, of course, you may not want to do them or mayn't like the pay but the market is free of an favoritism, everyone earns according to one's skill & how valuable that skill is.

My political views don't fit any one mold. There are a lot of things I fall into the libertarian camp on. This is just an area where we differ. I don't automatically believe that what's good for corporate America is good for me. I believe all things work in moderation, and maybe this free trade (for others) is something we've pigged out on to our detriment.

You can't "fall into libertarian camp" unless you believe in free markets; of course, there are minor differences between anarchists & minarchists but free markets always come first.

And don't believe the media rhetoric that "free market capitalism is all about corporate America", free markets are FOR THE PEOPLE, it's about people being able to determine their economic paths based on their skill & hardwork, so free marketers ONLY respect HONEST businesses that make money out of providing goods & services to the people, corporatism is NOT tolerated by free marketers & the funny thing is that the kind of protectionist policies that you're advocating for actually lead to corporatism as I've already explained.

Second, I simply appreciate the vulnerability of not being able to produce for oneself.

As has been said, just because a country isn't manufacturing-intensive does NOT mean it's worse off, there's nothing "vulnerable" about it. It just means that others are producing it a lot more efficiently, be it due to destructive policies of our government.

We DON'T "have to" manufacture everything we need, if we can just buy it cheaper from others then why adopt protectionism & force lower living standards on all Americans? Please read my reply to "The Grinning Maniac"

We lost manufacturing because of government policies, not because of some natural 'free market shift'.......When the shit hits the fan, we will have to produce for ourselves[/QUOTE]

If you recognize that government policies have caused the problems then why do think government can fix it by thwarting the free market by adopting protectionist policies. When SHTF all the cuddly manufacturing jobs will be back automatically anyway if we keep the markets free because our living standards as a country will've gone down but there's no need to adopt protectionism.

It seems to me that a more measured approach to "free trade" would have been wiser.

I liked your exposition of the whole situation upto a point but I was disappointed to see that you're also proposing managed trade as the answer when it's clearly not.

What do you mean by "measured approach"? You mean we should put tariffs on cheaper foreign imports? But as I've already explained, that only leads to rise in prices of goods & services within America & Americans as a whole enjoy lower living standards because of it. Why force some people to pay higher costs & suffer lower living standards, just so that some other could benefit? As I've said, this is what leads to corporatism. Once you allow politicians & bureaucrats to interfere with the market then that leads us to a very slippery slope.
 
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I liked your exposition of the whole situation upto a point but I was disappointed to see that you're also proposing managed trade as the answer when it's clearly not.

Not everything is clear. The economic imbalances arose as the results of the political imbalances. A small proportion of the global population enjoyed an environment of nearly limitless opportunity while the rest languished in comparatively severe tyranny. Wealth was built in our camp while it sublimated into the ether in the others. All of a sudden the flood gates were opened wide and the willing, capable, and far less costly labor of those relatively impoverished markets became available to the west, which naturally bolted for those shores.

As I wrote, the situation was and remains far more complicated than this. Another exacerbating circumstance has been the gross over-application of "regulation", not to mention the governmental institutionalization of unions. All of this greatly aided in the currently high labor rates with which we are saddled. I am not against all corporate regulation because history has shown that many cannot be trusted to the door. Corporate rights are not human rights and that must be kept in the forefront of our thoughts at all times when considering these sorts of questions.

What do you mean by "measured approach"?

I mean not opening up markets such that the vacuum effect I have documented completely wrecks the stronger economy. By "stronger" I mean materially larger. The comparative labor advantage that a nation such as China enjoys is artificially contrived - the result of the past 65 years of communist oppression, at the very least. Letting those people loose all at once has proven troublesome to the US economy. Our economy should have been freer than it was. So should those of all of the rest of the world. Had this been the case, the imbalances we see today would likely not exist. The global economy would arguably far and away stronger and more "naturally" equitable than it is.

The real point here is that it took a lot of time and a great convolution of conditions - a gordian knot of governmental interference - to cause these massive imbalances to have evolved over however many decades. Opening the floodgates of free trade is going to necessarily result in some violence. The situation is deplorable, but it is what it is and sudden changes are not the right solutions. A gradual ramp up of trade is probably the saner path to take. Ideals are great things to work toward, but when one's forebears paint the world into corners such as we find over many decades and more, gradual movements in the right direction are probably the right-minded actions, all else equal. But if we have at the top of the decision making totem people who are either inept or malicious in their choices, then no solution is likely to benefit the world at large.

You mean we should put tariffs on cheaper foreign imports?

I made no such statement, nor did anything I write imply this. I put no definition to "more measured". I was writing only in the broadest conceptual terms.

But as I've already explained, that only leads to rise in prices of goods & services within America & Americans as a whole enjoy lower living standards because of it.

This is a peanuts-league effect when compared to the effects that government over-regulation and sanction of unions have had.

Why force some people to pay higher costs & suffer lower living standards, just so that some other could benefit?

Why, indeed. Once again, because of the circumstances that past generations have forced upon us, extrication is most likely not a mere matter of opening all the spigots full-bore. That is effectively what we have done, and with at least one majorly rigged labor market. Any fundamentally sound economic analysis is going to point to trouble. Free market trade is absolutely dependent on the presence of free markets, no exceptions... especially when one of the players is as large as China. It is not just the rigged nature of China's labor market that threatens us - here size matters. A lot. Were we talking about Cuba, chances are we would not be suffering the problems we now face.

The solution is very difficult and perhaps even less-than-intuitive in some cases. All markets on the planet need correction. They are all manipulated - interfered with by their respective governments. The USA is no exception. Had the world not gone off the rails, what with all the authoritarian bullshit that has dominated human politics since our earliest written history, such corrections might never have been necessary. The fact is, the world economy is intimately and inextricably tied to its politics. Both are almost hopelessly corrupted and convoluted. Simple, easy, and fast solutions are almost certainly not even a remote possibility.
 
200 years of history prove that tariffs are needed to protect a nations businesses from being unfairly reduced by foreign competition. NAFTA has only proven that open borders export jobs. Our founding fathers knew this and although some of them did not like the idea of higher taxes, they deemed it necessary in order to keep this country from being dependent on others. Some of the most productive and prosperous periods of this country were when tariffs were highest. Unfortunately, tariffs have also been manipulated favoring one industry over another. Prior to the civil war, higher tariffs were enacted to protect northern factories. However it adversely effected southern wool and cotton growers who mainly exported to Europe at the time. They should have used a sliding scale respective to each industry but the northern politicians deemed it necessary to raise the cost of southern exports so that their prices would fall and they could increase their own profits. It worked and this is one of the main reasons for succession that led to the civil war.
 
Why are American steelworkers ENTITLED to anything more than what other steelworkers are getting? They're not. If they're willing to work hard then they'll find something else to do.

On the other hand, if you put tarrifs & taxes on foreign steel just to "help" American steelworkers then that means the prices of steel within America go up & that means EVERYONE in America must pay higher prices for goods & services which are directly or indirectly affected by steel prices which means Americans as a whole have a lower standard of living than they otherwise would've had. Why make everyone pay for a few people? And it doesn't just stop at steel, then other workers might ask for protection from imports & so on & this whole process leads to lobbying & corporatism as unions & big corporations get involved & then over a period, it just becomes a mess.
.

You couldn't be any further from the truth. I have been working with steel for over 30 years and the price of steel has skyrocketed since we "rewarded" those companies for leaving. You are correct in that higher prices has adversely effected everything but you are wrong in your assumption of who is to blame. Protectionist measures have worked in Brazil who climbed from almost last on the economic scale to #5 in just 10 years. Our present economy would be much worse if they didn't use fuzzy math to prop up their figures. Our policies have ruined this country and 1/4 of it's workforce is unemployed.

So, explain to me again how your model has worked so well?
After 30 years...you would like me to find another trade simply because you place a higher value on share prices than you do on my career and my family.
Thank god this country wasn't founded upon your principles, someday soon, Americans will have had enough of this none sense.
 
I really wish people had listened to Ross Perot. He knew what he was talking about. But noooo...he has funny ears and a reedy voice. He can't be a serious candidate. Ugh America.
 
I really wish people had listened to Ross Perot. He knew what he was talking about. But noooo...he has funny ears and a reedy voice. He can't be a serious candidate. Ugh America.

It's a shame he wasn't taken seriously. I was building Trident subs at General Dynamics when Ct was the only state that voted for him. The steel was from Pa, the nuts and bolts were made right there in Ct. Almost every part of those Subs were built using American materials and labor. When the defense money stopped, Ct lost 10,000 jobs per month for 2 years straight. 100's of banks failed and 100's of companies closed. Pratt and Whitney, Sikorski, American Standard, all of the major companies all layed off it's entire workforce. Tens of thousands of people lost their homes. It was just as bad as it is now except this time the whole country is in this mess. This funny little businessman and his charts layed it all out and told this country what was wrong and what would happen. He had a plan to fix it too but nobody believed him. Turns out he was right and look at us now.
 
If you recognize that government policies have caused the problems then why do think government can fix it by thwarting the free market by adopting protectionist policies. When SHTF all the cuddly manufacturing jobs will be back automatically anyway if we keep the markets free because our living standards as a country will've gone down but there's no need to adopt protectionism.

Tariffs, at this point, would not be protectionist. They couldn't even qualify for protectionism because there's hardly anything left to protect.

Why is that?

Well, because what we have today is the EXACT OPPOSITE of Smoot-Hawley. We went from one extreme to another. The government stopped 'protecting' manufacturing industries and went to discouraging, or more accurately punishing, companies that try to produce in the U.S.

Increasing tariffs would not 'thwart the free market' anymore than taxing you and your neighbor's business at the same 10% rate.

Currently, if you're a producer, we're taxing your neighbor at 3% and taxing you 30%. The government is already picking winners and losers.

It would be nice to have a balance; bring tariffs up and domestic taxes down until they meet in the middle. This will not hurt the "free market". Everyone plays by the same rules.

But, then again, as I said, the tariffs will not be raised. Doing so would quickly bring to light how devastating the Fed has been to our dollar. So, we have the never ending rat race to find cheap stuff and encourage the importation of it into the U.S. with B.S. trade agreements, all to maintain the illusion that you can actually get a lot of stuff for that FRN in your pocket. If you don't want to change that, fine. But at least understand what's going on here.
 
I made no such statement, nor did anything I write imply this. I put no definition to "more measured". I was writing only in the broadest conceptual terms.

Look, either you can say what the "measured approach" should be or you're just playing on words.

"Measured approach" automatically leads to tariffs and/or other imposition in terms of costs which make cheaper foreign goods costlier & thereby lower living standards for Americans. And if you think politicians & bureaucrats should decide what it should be then you need to look into the corporatism that it leads to.

The solution is very difficult and perhaps even less-than-intuitive in some cases. All markets on the planet need correction. They are all manipulated - interfered with by their respective governments.

Again, if you think your "solution" is going to come from politicians & bureaucrats then we've no hope of getting anywhere.

You couldn't be any further from the truth. I have been working with steel for over 30 years and the price of steel has skyrocketed.

So, explain to me again how your model has worked so well?

America is NOT a free market, NAFTA, CAFTA & all so called "free trade agreements" are NOT free trade as such & all the free-marketers HATE them. What they are is "managed trade", as Ron has said, we don't need thousands pages of documentation to have free trade with other countries, these agreements are forms of "regulated trade" that are designed to benefit big corporations; this is what happens when you let politicians & bureaucrats run the markets, the big guys buy out the politicians & bureaucrats & benefit at the cost of the people; this is corporatism at its worst & when you support politicians & bureaucrats "regulating" the markets, you unknowingly support exactly this kind of corporatism.

Increasing tariffs would not 'thwart the free market'

Free markets & tariffs are incompatible.

It would be nice to have a balance; bring tariffs up and domestic taxes down until they meet in the middle.

And where would we find such angels who'd re-arrange the markets exactly how they "should be" & do so without it leading to corporatism like it always does?

Only if all the corporate taxes, tariffs & regulations & so called "free trade agreements" are gotten rid of then that in itself will encourage so many businesses into America that there'd be no shortage of jobs so there's absolutely no "need" to resort to tariffs or any other anti-free-market practices.
 
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