Yep, welcome to the greased skids of fiat money and "free trade"... an illusion of wealth waiting to implode.

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What? This doesn't even make any sense. The average family does have a mortgage and some credit card debt, but that's hardly what the economy is built on---the massive debt the US has it accumulated by the Federal government, not individual citizens---it has little to do with standard of living or anything----the case could be much better made that the debt has reduced or is holding down our current standard of living, not sustaining it.
Guess what? Hong Kong is a recipient of business transferred from other nations under the guise of "free trade".In other words, if other nations still retained their manufacturing capability, Hong Kong might not be so wealthy, eh?
Yep, welcome to the greased skids of fiat money and "free trade"... an illusion of wealth waiting to implode.This country better hope that exported industries return BEFORE attempting a reduction in the supply of fiat money, though.
I voted 'conditionally.'
It does not matter, though. Tariffs will not be raised to amount to much in my lifetime, because doing so doesn't not jive with the plans of the establishment to wreck our economy and throw us into a state of complete dependency.
EDIT: So, it does not matter what we want, the Fed has the system set up just the way it wants it. Keep the Americans distracted with cheap foreign goods, make them think that foreign manufacturers are simply more competitive and we've been beaten fair-n-square, and that we can go on consuming, consuming, and consuming our way to prosperity.
I've voted Yes because trade barriers never help.
Some have talked about tariffs & retaliatory tariff-policy being good, etc but I've a few contentions.
Import tariffs just increase the cost of goods within the country as it adds to the price of goods & thereby all Americans are forced to buy costlier goods & services, & remember, living standards are dictated by goods & services which is the "real wealth" so the less Americans are able to enjoy them, lower their living standards.
On the other hand, export tariffs ( & even minimum-wage, regulations, high taxes, etc) cause the price of exported goods to go up which means fewer people want to buy them so fewer businesses are interested in producing them within America which means fewer jobs are created within America.
LoL ... yeah right ... Let's return to a strictly constitutional currency based on gold and silver coinage if debt has "little to do with standard of living or anything" ...![]()
Guess what? Hong Kong is a recipient of business transferred from other nations under the guise of "free trade".In other words, if other nations still retained their manufacturing capability, Hong Kong might not be so wealthy, eh?
Seriously, why is it that so many baby-boomers are sold on "manufacturing creates prosperity" myth? Manufacturing are largely low-paid, low-skilled jobs & if you guys like them so much then just wait a little till depression sets in & Americans' living standards go down then all your favorite manufacturing low-paid jobs will be back.![]()
Speaking in generalities, manufacturing is pretty much done by China and Hong Kong, etc. High tech jobs and design jobs that can be uprooted are in India. Office work and customer support jobs are also moving to India. Then there are the jobs filled now by HB-1s and finally increasing mechanization/automation (which, granted, has always happened)... In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.
Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us?
What replaces all that's been lost? Some here criticize the blue collar work, saying we don't need it anyway...but what about those people who aren't fit for college? I even had this question back when we were still in the "high tech jobs will fix everything" phase. You know, before they were shipped out too. Not everyone's into that sort of thing. Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?
This seems like a game of musical chairs, doesn't it?
I swear I'm not being a troll. It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.
Thoughts?
Speaking in generalities, manufacturing is pretty much done by China and Hong Kong, etc. High tech jobs and design jobs that can be uprooted are in India. Office work and customer support jobs are also moving to India. Then there are the jobs filled now by HB-1s and finally increasing mechanization/automation (which, granted, has always happened)... In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.
Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us? What replaces all that's been lost? Some here criticize the blue collar work, saying we don't need it anyway...but what about those people who aren't fit for college? I even had this question back when we were still in the "high tech jobs will fix everything" phase. You know, before they were shipped out too. Not everyone's into that sort of thing. Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?
This seems like a game of musical chairs, doesn't it? I swear I'm not being a troll. It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.
Thoughts?
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Also, I'm in the midst of reading the info Individual cited. A little busy to respond point for point, ATM. Although a lot of what was said tends to gloss over points I made or questions I raised, some of it has been very interesting and challenged my preconceptions. Also, don't call me a liberal. That's just really annoying and petty. My political views don't fit any one mold. There are a lot of things I fall into the libertarian camp on. This is just an area where we differ. I don't automatically believe that what's good for corporate America is good for me. I believe all things work in moderation, and maybe this free trade (for others) is something we've pigged out on to our detriment.
In a broad sense, I'm wondering what we're supposed to do long term.
Yes, yes, I know...the free market will take care of everything, but I'm wondering...in what way? How do you know the "new configuration" of the world will be good for us?
Steelworkers probably won't become genetic engineers. Should they kill themselves now?
It's just a question that looms in the back of my mind. An economy that has all sorts of jobs, for all skill levels and interests makes sense. It seems balanced. An economy where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, or scientist....or wither away at Wal-Mart or the DMV (exaggerating)...seems unbalanced.
Thoughts?
My political views don't fit any one mold. There are a lot of things I fall into the libertarian camp on. This is just an area where we differ. I don't automatically believe that what's good for corporate America is good for me. I believe all things work in moderation, and maybe this free trade (for others) is something we've pigged out on to our detriment.
Second, I simply appreciate the vulnerability of not being able to produce for oneself.
It seems to me that a more measured approach to "free trade" would have been wiser.
I liked your exposition of the whole situation upto a point but I was disappointed to see that you're also proposing managed trade as the answer when it's clearly not.
What do you mean by "measured approach"?
You mean we should put tariffs on cheaper foreign imports?
But as I've already explained, that only leads to rise in prices of goods & services within America & Americans as a whole enjoy lower living standards because of it.
Why force some people to pay higher costs & suffer lower living standards, just so that some other could benefit?
Why are American steelworkers ENTITLED to anything more than what other steelworkers are getting? They're not. If they're willing to work hard then they'll find something else to do.
On the other hand, if you put tarrifs & taxes on foreign steel just to "help" American steelworkers then that means the prices of steel within America go up & that means EVERYONE in America must pay higher prices for goods & services which are directly or indirectly affected by steel prices which means Americans as a whole have a lower standard of living than they otherwise would've had. Why make everyone pay for a few people? And it doesn't just stop at steel, then other workers might ask for protection from imports & so on & this whole process leads to lobbying & corporatism as unions & big corporations get involved & then over a period, it just becomes a mess.
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I really wish people had listened to Ross Perot. He knew what he was talking about. But noooo...he has funny ears and a reedy voice. He can't be a serious candidate. Ugh America.
If you recognize that government policies have caused the problems then why do think government can fix it by thwarting the free market by adopting protectionist policies. When SHTF all the cuddly manufacturing jobs will be back automatically anyway if we keep the markets free because our living standards as a country will've gone down but there's no need to adopt protectionism.
I made no such statement, nor did anything I write imply this. I put no definition to "more measured". I was writing only in the broadest conceptual terms.
The solution is very difficult and perhaps even less-than-intuitive in some cases. All markets on the planet need correction. They are all manipulated - interfered with by their respective governments.
You couldn't be any further from the truth. I have been working with steel for over 30 years and the price of steel has skyrocketed.
So, explain to me again how your model has worked so well?
Increasing tariffs would not 'thwart the free market'
It would be nice to have a balance; bring tariffs up and domestic taxes down until they meet in the middle.