Do you find the DDOS attacks on AMZN, VSA, & MCD as *just*in libertarian philosophy?

Do you find the DDOS attacks on AMZN, VSA, & MCD as *just*in libertarian philosophy?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 46 39.3%
  • No.

    Votes: 71 60.7%

  • Total voters
    117
in these cases, a regretful yes.

ebay, paypal, mastercard etc are defacto monopolies.

so the free market doesn't work.

imagine a situation where a local Mayor doesn't like you, for whatever reason.
what if he pressured the electric company to cut you off. this is what is happening to Wikileaks; convicted of nothing, the government is using pressure to shut them down. and these utilities find it easier to go along. being taken down will make these businesses at least think twice.

it is no different than the Boston tea party.
 
You would have to convince me first that Visa and Mastercard achieved their current state of success without the U.S. Government intervening into the market.

(aside): In summer 2008, didn't the government slip electronic transaction-tracking into the Fannie/Freddie bailout?

Ask yourself this, "if I wanted to start a credit card company, what obstacles would I have to overcome which Visa and Mastercard didn't have to contend with when they started out?"

I didn't vote, though, since I didn't want to skewer the results by including an impure libertarian like myself into the statistics.
 
You would have to convince me first that Visa and Mastercard achieved their current state of success without the U.S. Government intervening into the market.

Ah, except the burden of proof lies on you to provide evidence that these entities (AMZN, VSA, MCD, PP) have become these corporatist monopolies that you guys claim they are with significant government assistance.


The burden of proof is always on the one claiming the positive, not the negative.
 
Yes, no, or maybe. I suppose if Sentient Void is the final arbiter of what is and isn't libertarian, the answer is no. If you consider yourself a libertarian but think that during revolutions people should act like revolutionaries, the answer is yes provided you feel like we are in the midst of said revolution. As for maybe, some may think... uh maybe.
 
tea_party.jpg
 
I can't believe some of you are making the argument that just because the servers don't get physically destroyed that damage hasn't been done. It is like saying that slavery or imprisonment is ok so long as you get 3 meals a day to keep your body intact. If I stole your stuff and gave it back 30 years later completely intact would you just shrug and say, "well, I guess no damage was done."

Maybe you can't see any damage to the servers but as a result of the attack real resources are consumed in a wasteful way, and it is ultimately very hurtful to the real property of the business and its customers.
 
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The problem is that our law does in fact allow real-world protests to harm business revenues and "attack" real resources of a business - protesters can effectively shutdown a business permanently, to both the harm of business and its customers. If they wanted to, lawmakers could make a law saying that protests of a company must occur 2 miles away so as not to adversely impact the business's relationship with customers during a protest; yet, no such rule exists because they realize the effectiveness of protests is the disruption in revenue.

Just because I'm arguing for DDoS doesn't mean I necessarily support it, but I do see flaws on both sides of the argument. This is not a B&W issue...
 
Absolutely, and it's astonishing to me that anyone could argue otherwise. Fuck those corporations. Corporate America once again circles the wagons to protect it's executive committee (the state), and the right-wing libertarians are too busy hand-waving about "private" corporations, as if the term had any real significance or meaning, to take notice of the big picture.

*sigh*

Anyone who really thinks that large financial corporations are "private" and that the government is "public" is living in an irrational paradigm. The government is "private" in the sense that it is owned by corporate America. Corporate America is "public" in the sense that it is a direct outgrowth and unofficial branch of the government (just look at what they are doing for God's sake!).

Some of you need to get your head out of the clouds where "public" and "private" have some fundamental philosophical significance and deal with the real world in which there basically isn't any meaningful significance. It's called understanding how the world actually works rather than they way it might work in some right-wing libertarian fantasy land where everything is either "public" or "private," "involuntary" or "voluntary," "moral" or "immoral." The real world is an infinitely complex, constantly evolving system that doesn't fit into simplistic categories.

This war - the war of free culture, decentralization, networked organization versus hierarchy, information control, and authoritarian ideology - is a perfect example of the complexity of our world. The battle lines and the participants aren't always clear. It's a round peg that won't fit into the square holes of right-wing libertarian dogma. If you seek liberty in its fullest dimensions you must first come to terms with that fact of reality, rather than attempt, at every turn, to force reality to fit within your personal, absolutist, ethical paradigm.
 
The problem is that our law does in fact allow real-world protests to harm business revenues and "attack" real resources of a business - protesters can effectively shutdown a business permanently, to both the harm of business and its customers. If they wanted to, lawmakers could make a law saying that protests of a company must occur 2 miles away so as not to adversely impact the business's relationship with customers during a protest; yet, no such rule exists because they realize the effectiveness of protests is the disruption in revenue.

Just because I'm arguing for DDoS doesn't mean I necessarily support it, but I do see flaws on both sides of the argument.

I don't think we should use fiat law as justification for anything. The problem is that the roads and sidewalks are a public resource and that's how protesters get away with it. Having a society where people can't physically disrupt a business and its customers isn't a flaw, it is a good thing. Protest should be an exercise of free speech, it does not mean that you're physically blocking something off.
 
No, because it is private property. If they don't want to carry wikileaks, they don't have to unless their contract terms say they have to.

This is the fallacy.
These are not private companies in the true sense, they are corporations intertwined with the government. This is why all it took was 1 phone call by lieberman to have amazon shut out wikileaks with no warning.

Private companies my ass!
 
The real world is an infinitely complex, constantly evolving system that doesn't fit into simplistic categories.

I can't even tell you how many times a far-left liberal has used this line on me to try and trump reasonable arguments about what is right or wrong. The "things are too complex to even analyze, so let's just not have principles and do whatever we want" argument is not a good one. It is the lack of an argument - it says that arguments for or against something aren't allowed to exist. The person who makes this argument should not take any action in life, because it is simply too complicated to figure out what you should be doing.
 
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This is the fallacy.
These are not private companies in the true sense, they are corporations intertwined with the government. This is why all it took was 1 phone call by lieberman to have amazon shut out wikileaks with no warning.

Private companies my ass!

Again with the Mida's Touch argument. Apparently if a person/business has any contact with the government whatsoever, they completely flip from being private, to being an arm of the govt open to attack.
 
I don't think we should use fiat law as justification for anything. The problem is that the roads and sidewalks are a public resource and that's how protesters get away with it. Having a society where people can't physically disrupt a business and its customers isn't a flaw, it is a good thing. Protest should be an exercise of free speech, it does not mean that you're physically blocking something off.
I couldn't agree with you more, but current laws are what society views as acceptable. The internet is still relatively new and no situations in the real world, along with the relevant laws, are perfect analogies, but I do see some of a double-standard between protests/sit-ins versus DDoS. That's why I constantly think about extreme examples to see where the lines should be drawn...
 
I wish this poll had a 3rd option. "No. But I don't limit myself to just libertarian philosophy".

^^ This. (only ,Yes, regardless of libertarian philosophy)
I may have libertarian leanings. And I have been accused of being a anarchist. This is also not true.
I am an Angry American.
Is is Just? I believe so. I am often more concerned with right and wrong, rather than legal or illegal.

Once upon a time,, There was something known as "Justifiable Homicide". Meaning there was good reason for a killing. It was "just."

In this case the "attackers" are quite Justifiably Offended at the attacks on Freedom of Speech and the arrest of a Journalist. The "targets", by their choice and actions have joined in this persecution.

I voted Yes, It is Justifiable.
 
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I can't even tell you how many times a far-left liberal has used this line on me to try and trump reasonable arguments about what is right or wrong. The "things are too complex to even analyze, so let's just not have principles and do whatever we want" argument is not a good one. The person who makes this argument should not take any action in life, because it is simply too complicated to figure out what you should be doing.

Looks like you missed the point. I said it was too complex to fit into simplistic categories, not that it was too complex for evaluations to be made. The sophistication of those evaluations should reflect the sophistication of the system they are addressing.

Serious thinkers address a multi-dimensional, full-spectrum reality rather than a black-and-white caricature (although the latter is easier to understand), because they don't try to make the world fit into a preconceived ideological paradigm. Instead they approach the world with a flexible paradigm which may change as they attain a more nuanced understanding of reality. Those who approach it with some rigid set of a priori truths, only seeking validation of their convictions, will either end up living in their own fantasy land or will find their illusion of life utterly shattered. In fact, however, those who approach life with the assumption that they have already discovered the fundamental truths will rarely actually seek reality because they have no need for their theory to be confirmed. To them, it is already true - why bother?

My message is that it is important to stay flexible and open-minded, and that an obsession with simplistic categories, such as "public" or "private" - as if the categories themselves, as words, rather than the physical reality of each situation, are determinative - is a symptom of the sort of close-minded approach to the world that is less than honest, intellectually, and leads only to a dead end.
 
I wish this poll had a 3rd option. "No. But I don't limit myself to just libertarian philosophy".

The real problem is that libertarian philosophy, itself, has been so limited and watered-down that we come to the absurd situation where a radical philosophy of political, social and economic revolution is now manifested in the defense of Mastercard.

I love the Boston Tea Party analogy. If the right-wing libertarians lived during the early stages of the American Revolution they would be too busy consternating over whether the destruction of the tea was an act against a "private" company to even appreciate or participate in the revolution happening around them.
 
My message is that it is important to stay flexible and open-minded, and that an obsession with simplistic categories, such as "public" or "private" - as if the categories themselves, as words, rather than the physical reality of each situation, are determinative - is a symptom of the sort of close-minded approach to the world that is less than honest, intellectually, and leads only to a dead end.

The problem is many people who want to justify their actions are trying to do so by saying that just because an otherwise private business has some connection to the government, they are not private at all and are the same as the govt. They're the ones taking the binary category approach. Just because I have principles that doesn't mean I'm dumb or simple.

I don't think it is unreasonable to call paypal or amazon a private business, but some people, in their blind hatred, only need to see a tiny tendril of connection to the government before they throw morality out the window. They're not being thoughtful or taking a moment to put things in perspective, they're just trying to rationalize in any way possible so they can fuck shit up.

I have registered my business as a corporation with the state in order to pay less taxes. You might say I'm "taking advantage of what govt has offered me". You might even say that I "colluded" with them by taking certain tax deductions. I don't want to be a corp, I don't want to pay taxes or deal with the govt at all, but they threatened me and I complied. I hope you will see the situation for what it is and still think of me as a private individual/company and respect what is left of my freedom. I'd hate to think I need to start carrying a gun to protect myself against other members of the freedom movement because they think it is their job to destroy me.
 
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The problem is many people who want to justify their actions are trying to do so by saying that just because an otherwise private business has some connection to the government, they are not private at all and are the same as the govt. They're the ones taking the binary category approach. Just because I have principles that doesn't mean I'm dumb or simple.

Except that most of the people who support these attacks are not employing the binary approach. The argument is that while it may be "immoral" to violate the private property of a private person, these corporations, aside from not being people (and thus having no rights to begin with), are not private due to their substantial connections with the state. Therefore, the theoretical categorical prohibition on affecting the property controlled by these corporations is not applicable to this situation.

I don't think it is unreasonable to call paypal or amazon a private business, but some people, in their blind hatred, only need to see a tiny tendril of connection to the government before they throw morality out the window. They're not being thoughtful or taking a moment to put things in perspective, they're just trying to rationalize in any way possible so they can fuck shit up.

That's a strawman. No one is arguing that morality should be thrown out the window. To the contrary, those that support the attacks are arguing that the the attacks are in accordance with the appropriate moral bounds of the situation. That's why, for example, no one is arguing that employees of Mastercard should be physically attacked (or targeted as individuals at all, except for perhaps some of the top leaders, for whom some level of public harassment is probably justified). A denial of service attack inflicts a fairly low level of "harm" to the company, and is therefore perfectly proportional to the harm these companies have inflicted upon society at large by cooperating with the government's efforts to shut down wikileaks.

I have registered my business as a corporation with the state in order to pay less taxes. You might say I'm "taking advantage of what govt has offered me". You might even say that I "colluded" with them by taking certain tax deductions. I don't want to be a corp, I don't want to pay taxes or deal with the govt at all, but they threatened me and I complied. I hope you will see the situation for what it is and still think of me as a private individual/company and respect what is left of my freedom. I'd hate to think I need to start carrying a gun to protect myself against other members of the freedom movement because they think it is their job to destroy me.

Stop being so paranoid, and don't make this unnecessarily personal. If you buy a warehouse and lease it to the state so that the state can round up protesters and temporarily incarcerate them in it - you can sure as hell bet I'm not going to give a damn about your "private property" to the extent that breaking into the warehouse will free the protesters. Does that mean I would consider it justifiable for someone to attack your person or your home? Of course not. Until then, let's leave the argument to case at hand.

It's about being proportional and reasonable. It's a complex judgment call in every case, and everyone is going to have a different answer. Personally, I don't find violence against the body of another individual justifiable in all but the most extreme of cases. That's not just because I find physical violence distasteful, but also because it rarely accomplishes much aside from the escalation of irrationality and conflict. But when it comes to small-scale property vandalism against large corporations who are, as much as the state, the enemies of a free society and beneficiaries of tyranny, to the extent that such vandalism and digital guerrilla warfare is effective as a strategy and does not significantly harm innocent parties, I support it from a moral perspective.
 
People keep pushing this idea that these companies are connected to the govt and therefor worthy of attack. I've tried to battle this notion but in vain - people stick to their biases.

Let's try it this way: Wikileaks was a big user of Amazon, Mastercard, Paypal, etc... , all the same companies that are hopelessly "intertwined" with the govt. The same companies, that because of their connection with the govt, are unjustly using force against the people. Wikileaks, inworking with these companies, benefited from this unjust use of force and is therefor also using the same force. Wikileaks, like the other customers of these companies, deserves to be attacked for their use of force against the people.

Like you said, it is very complex, and using your own logic, it turns out Wikileaks is one of the perpetrators that needs to be attacked.

The Midas touch argument sucks.
 
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