Do we really want a gold standard?

[Becker]

Texas Notes would be accepted in Texas, and any other state that deems it acceptable. I don't see the problem if the "Texas Notes" quickly pushed out of the market; that's the point of competing currencies. The best currency is used. If there's an arbitrage opportunity by buying Texas Notes and selling gold backed dollars, then that too is not a bad thing. Are you saying they are mutually exclusive b/c eventually one currency will be settled upon i.e. mutually exclusive in practice over time, but not mutually exclusive per se?

Yes, I am saying they're not mutually exclusive per se, just practically impossible to maintain equally over time.

No, not forced. I meant Florida, the State will accept Swiss Francs in addition to dollars. So one would have a choice in which currency to pay their taxes, fees, etc.

I think the point of competting currencies is that eventually the best currency will be used.

at that point, there would either be no gold standard, or a gold standart would render competitions irrelevant.

 

[ghengis86]

who has ever been penalized for trading whatever they choose? NORFED and von Nothaus do not count, they were trying to pass on their own currency as legal tender or US mint issued, that's deceptive and fraud. Had they said "this is what I value, take it for whatever value you wish, and we can voluntarily exchange" there would be no problem.

I'll give you NORFED and Nothaus; they made some crucial errors.

If you voluntarily transact with an employee (who also agress) that you will pay them one U.S. silver dollar with a face value of $1 per hour and base your expenses and taxes on valuing that silver coin at face value, you will be penalized.

 

[Becker]

Who did they defraud? That was big brother caging people for voluntarily trading with each other.

they defrauded or encouraged defrauding people who did not know their currency was only voluntary and arbitrarily set value.

they further used the word "dollar" on their currency to mislead people to believe they were equal to the US dollar in value and acceptance.

Everyone is penalized for trading. I would gladly work for a dollar an hour today --- Silver Dollar.

??? how are you penalized for trading? who is stopping you from working for silver dollars?

While it is not illegal for me to do that specifically, I get penalized if I hold it and it goes up in value against a Federal Reserve Note because they will implement a capital gain tax by inflating the $dollar.

that's the problem with capital gains taxes, and you can solve that by getting rid of it, this has nothing to do with the legality of using it for trade and barter

Another penalty is the Income Tax. If I get paid in Silver, then the IRS will penalize me and make me pay their ransom for working. That is a penalty for trading.

that is applied to everything and everywhere, this is not a specific punishment for people who use any particular type of barter or currency.

although it's harder to track non-FRN payments for tax purposes, I do not encourage tax evasion.

 

[ghengis86]

Yes, I am saying they're not mutually exclusive per se, just practically impossible to maintain equally over time.

at that point, there would either be no gold standard, or a gold standart would render competitions irrelevant.

Then I think we agree b/c that's the point; competing currencies arise over time to challenge a certain gold standard and either succeed, forcing a revaluation of the current gold standard, or the current gold standard wins out. There's no requirement to maintain the competing currency equally over time. THe market will decide if it's acceptable for use or not.

 

[Becker]

I'll give you NORFED and Nothaus; they made some crucial errors.

If you voluntarily transact with an employee (who also agress) that you will pay them one U.S. silver dollar with a face value of $1 per hour and base your expenses and taxes on valuing that silver coin at face value, you will be penalized.

i thought you said "aggress" lol.

that I give you as well. it's otherwise not illegal to give private minted silver bullion, or silver ores for payment or substitute of payment.

the example you gave, is a tax based penalization, it has not made trading or using gold and silver ILLEGAL, just one form (US Mint issued) harder.

 

[Becker]

Then I think we agree b/c that's the point; competing currencies arise over time to challenge a certain gold standard and either succeed, forcing a revaluation of the current gold standard, or the current gold standard wins out. There's no requirement to maintain the competing currency equally over time. THe market will decide if it's acceptable for use or not.

so you agree you'll end up with either multiple currencies, or one? and you can't have both?

 

[ghengis86]

i thought you said "aggress" lol.

that I give you as well. it's otherwise not illegal to give private minted silver bullion, or silver ores for payment or substitute of payment.

the example you gave, is a tax based penalization, it has not made trading or using gold and silver ILLEGAL, just one form (US Mint issued) harder.

yes but if I value that private minted coin at one hour of my labor or $1 dollar and the state values one hour of labor for a mechanic at $35/hr, then I will be penalized if I file my income taxes at $1,000/year.

i think the problem here may be that you see it as a tax issues and it's not illegal to transact as described above, it's just that I say one is penalized and harmed which is wrong.

 

[Travlyr]

they defrauded or encouraged defrauding people who did not know their currency was only voluntary and arbitrarily set value.

they further used the word "dollar" on their currency to mislead people to believe they were equal to the US dollar in value and acceptance.




??? how are you penalized for trading? who is stopping you from working for silver dollars?



that's the problem with capital gains taxes, and you can solve that by getting rid of it, this has nothing to do with the legality of using it for trade and barter


that is applied to everything and everywhere, this is not a specific punishment for people who use any particular type of barter or currency.

although it's harder to track non-FRN payments for tax purposes, I do not encourage tax evasion.

You missed the point. People are penalized for trading. That's a fact and it is why I support Ron Paul because he does not believe in the Marxist ideals of socialism.

 

[Becker]

yes but if I value that private minted coin at one hour of my labor or $1 dollar and the state values one hour of labor for a mechanic at $35/hr, then I will be penalized if I file my income taxes at $1,000/year.

thats because you are not applying the dollar unit in the commonly accepted way, or as we can say "the current government standard". which can be interpreted as fraud.

i think the problem here may be that you see it as a tax issues and it's not illegal to transact as described above, it's just that I say one is penalized and harmed which is wrong.

does free competition currency legislation eliminate capital gains tax altogether? if not, how is that not a special interest towards certain forms of barter?

 

[Becker]

You missed the point. People are penalized for trading. That's a fact and it is why I support Ron Paul because he does not believe in the Marxist ideals of socialism.

because there's obviously only 2 options, no penalization of trading, or Marxist socialism.

 

[anaconda]

Competing currencies, exactly. It's the monopoly thats the problem, ppl should be able to trade with eachother however they want. If they want to use gold, banana peels or used condoms, whats it anyone's busness ?? that said, i suspect gold WOULD come out on top and be the choice of most, like it has for thousands of years.

It seems that the more currencies we have the harder it might be to trade. Is each retailer going to electronically post instantaneous exchange rates between hundreds of competing currencies at their store, for example?

 

[ghengis86]

so you agree you'll end up with either multiple currencies, or one? and you can't have both?

no, I'm not saying it's one or the other. I'm saying it will be a fluid and ever changing landscape of which currencies will be traded, where there can be multiple possible currencies to use but that one currency will be preferred for some transactions over others.

maybe an analogy would help. I can choose from several different search engines to use. For shear index size, google will be the largest and thus will probably yield the most extensive search results. The majority of people will use google. at the same time, during the 'reign of google', one could use a lesser know search engine, such as bing, duckduckgo or wolframalpha for various other reasons. Google is on top and is somewhat undermined by these other search engines but will probably never cease to exist. the niche search engines still serve a purpose to some and thus will still have enough of a market share to remain viable.

(maybe that is a good analogy, maybe not. just off the cuff)

 

[Becker]

no, I'm not saying it's one or the other. I'm saying it will be a fluid and ever changing landscape of which currencies will be traded, where there can be multiple possible currencies to use but that one currency will be preferred for some transactions over others.

maybe an analogy would help. I can choose from several different search engines to use. For shear index size, google will be the largest and thus will probably yield the most extensive search results. The majority of people will use google. at the same time, during the 'reign of google', one could use a lesser know search engine, such as bing, duckduckgo or wolframalpha for various other reasons. Google is on top and is somewhat undermined by these other search engines but will probably never cease to exist. the niche search engines still serve a purpose to some and thus will still have enough of a market share to remain viable.

(maybe that is a good analogy, maybe not. just off the cuff)

and you can say there is no "Google standard" mandated on anybody. if there was, small engines would be pushed out much quicker.

 

[ghengis86]

thats because you are not applying the dollar unit in the commonly accepted way, or as we can say "the current government standard". which can be interpreted as fraud.
does free competition currency legislation eliminate capital gains tax altogether? if not, how is that not a special interest towards certain forms of barter?

But the 'current government standard' is a double standard. U.S. minted gold and silver coins are legal tender for all debts, public and private at their FACE VALUE. The U.S. government however will tax one based on the INTRINSIC value of U.S. minted gold and silver coins, not their face value.

 

[ghengis86]

and you can say there is no "Google standard" mandated on anybody. if there was, small engines would be pushed out much quicker.

only if people were penalized for using the alternative. if they could go about their voluntary business (that which is not with the state) without using google and not be harmed there would be viable alternatives filling their needs.

 

[ghengis86]

Becker - just +repped you simply because this is a good debate/discussion where their isn't name calling, personal attacks, etc. I have to get ready for a halloween party now, but appreciate the civil back and forth which is intellectually stimulating. Thank you! I'll think some more on the topic tonight and if coherent enough, post some more.

 

[Travlyr]

because there's obviously only 2 options, no penalization of trading, or Marxist socialism.

Liberty vs. Tyranny

 

[DamianTV]

So here is a suggestion for you guys. Why not use Time measured in Hours as a replacement for The Gold Standard?

When the Fed or the Govt prints money out of thin air, they go after the Value of the Currency, not the Quantity. This would effectively say that a Gallon of Gasoline today is not the same Quantity as a Gallon of Gas tomorrow. Today, a Gallon of Gas weighs 3.043 pounds (weight, not British currency), but tomorrow, a Gallon of Gas weighs 2.75 pounds. It makes it much more difficult for anyone to benefit by manipulating the Value. If we measured something of Value in Hours, say for example, an IOU for "One Hour of Labor", that would be a Standard that could not be manipulated because there are only 24 Hours in a Day. Now, the big and most important question is not why should we use IOU's of "Hours of Labor" as a form of Currency, but why SHOULDNT we use IOU's of "Hours of Labor" as a form of Currency?

I just want to see if anyone can answer this question.

---

Edit: I will give a +Rep to the first person that can answer that question.

 

[Becker]

time measure hours assumes all work are equal

simply not the case

So here is a suggestion for you guys. Why not use Time measured in Hours as a replacement for The Gold Standard?

When the Fed or the Govt prints money out of thin air, they go after the Value of the Currency, not the Quantity. This would effectively say that a Gallon of Gasoline today is not the same Quantity as a Gallon of Gas tomorrow. Today, a Gallon of Gas weighs 3.043 pounds (weight, not British currency), but tomorrow, a Gallon of Gas weighs 2.75 pounds. It makes it much more difficult for anyone to benefit by manipulating the Value. If we measured something of Value in Hours, say for example, an IOU for "One Hour of Labor", that would be a Standard that could not be manipulated because there are only 24 Hours in a Day. Now, the big and most important question is not why should we use IOU's of "Hours of Labor" as a form of Currency, but why SHOULDNT we use IOU's of "Hours of Labor" as a form of Currency?

I just want to see if anyone can answer this question.

---

Edit: I will give a +Rep to the first person that can answer that question.

 

[Travlyr]

So here is a suggestion for you guys. Why not use Time measured in Hours as a replacement for The Gold Standard?

When the Fed or the Govt prints money out of thin air, they go after the Value of the Currency, not the Quantity. This would effectively say that a Gallon of Gasoline today is not the same Quantity as a Gallon of Gas tomorrow. Today, a Gallon of Gas weighs 3.043 pounds (weight, not British currency), but tomorrow, a Gallon of Gas weighs 2.75 pounds. It makes it much more difficult for anyone to benefit by manipulating the Value. If we measured something of Value in Hours, say for example, an IOU for "One Hour of Labor", that would be a Standard that could not be manipulated because there are only 24 Hours in a Day. Now, the big and most important question is not why should we use IOU's of "Hours of Labor" as a form of Currency, but why SHOULDNT we use IOU's of "Hours of Labor" as a form of Currency?

I just want to see if anyone can answer this question.

---

Edit: I will give a +Rep to the first person that can answer that question.

I'm pretty sure if we gave the government that task, it wouldn't be long and there would be 30 hours in a day.