Do Animals Have Natural Rights?

[tremendoustie]

Humans ARE animals. Obvious but important point.

I wouldn't say it's obvious. There are many, including me, who disagree with that statement.

If your question is about non-human animals, they have the same universal "inherent" rights as humans.

Of course, if humans are not the same as animals, this does not follow.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I wouldn't say it's obvious. There are many, including me, who disagree with that statement.

Then you must be mineral or vegetable?

 

[Bman]

I wouldn't say it's obvious. There are many, including me, who disagree with that statement.

Well than what would you think of dolphins that can understand concepts in syntax. Are they to be thought of less now, not on their ability to think and percieve, but because they cannot live on land? That they cannot form words?

Or how about Orca's which have they largest most active frontal lobe region of any mammal. Surely, they have the brain power to understand any concept we have.

If you look at nature you can start to eventually understand that why we are special there is plenty out their which is easy to see as being just as if not more special than any of us. Some of that stuff happens to be other life forms. There is no god who made you superior to anything. It's the biggest lie of mankind.

 

[TER]

Animals and our relationships with them are amongst the most important responsibilities we have inherited as children made in the image of the Father. The Holy Scriptures speak of a Paradise where Man lived in complete harmony with all of creation until pride caused the fall from grace.

There have been many eyewitness accounts of holy saints who have lived in harmony with creation and the animals in it. Some who rode on lions and others who lived with bears.

 

[ChaosControl]

Unfortunately for us (and potentially animals), humans are naturally omnivorous, and a healthy diet greatly benefits from a balance of nutrients and such not necessarily present in significant amounts in the aforementioned plants.

You can get all needed nutrients in a vegetarian diet.
I'm not sure about vegan, although I imagine it may be workable, if not then supplements can be added where needed.

 

[idiom]

Because Plants, being living things, also have no rights.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Because Plants, being living things, also have no rights.

Good point. Plants have the same inherent universal rights as other livings things. They are just too lazy to exercise them most of the time (except the weeds, which have no problem exercising their natural right to take over my garden).

 

[Kludge]

Because Plants, being living things, also have no rights.

Plants do not think or feel. They are not capable of it. Some animals, however, not only think and feel, but appear to be self-aware.

http://www.livescience.com/animals/061030_elephant_mirror.html

 

[tremendoustie]

Well than what would you think of dolphins that can understand concepts in syntax. Are they to be thought of less now, not on their ability to think and percieve, but because they cannot live on land? That they cannot form words?

Or how about Orca's which have they largest most active frontal lobe region of any mammal. Surely, they have the brain power to understand any concept we have.

If you look at nature you can start to eventually understand that why we are special there is plenty out their which is easy to see as being just as if not more special than any of us. Some of that stuff happens to be other life forms. There is no god who made you superior to anything. It's the biggest lie of mankind.

It is impossible to determine self-awareness by external observation. I know that I am self aware. I think it is a reasonable assumption that my fellow humans are self-aware. I am not convinced that animals are self aware.

Now, you could alternately assume that you are the only self aware being, or that all other persons as well as animals are self aware.

It is awareness itself that defines person hood, for me. See the thread in off topics on the discussion of the existance of God/the nonphysical for clarification on this, if you're interested. Complexity alone does not define personhood -- a supercomputer is complex.

 

[tremendoustie]

Plants do not think or feel. They are not capable of it. Some animals, however, not only think and feel, but appear to be self-aware.

http://www.livescience.com/animals/061030_elephant_mirror.html

A certain observed behavior does not imply self-awareness. It simply could be a programmed response mechanism. I could program a robot to do the same.

Now, a particular set of behaviors might be described as "self-awareness", and that's fine -- but I don't think we should confuse this with any sort of evidence of self-awareness in the philosophic sense.

I suppose one could make the argument, "I know I am self aware, and this behavior seems enough like mine that I will assume the elephant is self-aware", and the assumption might be reasonable -- but it is only an assumption. To me, other people seem very similar to me, but there is a vast gulf between other people and even the most similar animal. That is where I draw my line. If you think elephants should be included, more power to ya .

 

[idiom]

Plants do not think or feel. They are not capable of it. Some animals, however, not only think and feel, but appear to be self-aware.

http://www.livescience.com/animals/061030_elephant_mirror.html

Fruitarians eat only what falls (or would fall) naturally from a plant, that is: foods that can be harvested without killing the plant.



What the hell happened to the right to life Kludge?

 

[Kludge]

A certain observed behavior does not imply self-awareness. It simply could be a programmed response mechanism. I could program a robot to do the same.

Now, a particular set of behaviors might be described as "self-awareness", and that's fine -- but I don't think we should confuse this with self-awareness in the philosophic sense.

Well, if we're going to go that route, then I don't believe you are self-aware, no matter how often you tell me otherwise, as it is possibly a programmed survival instinct. Thus, you have no rights.

 

[Kludge]

Fruitarians eat only what falls (or would fall) naturally from a plant, that is: foods that can be harvested without killing the plant.



What the hell happened to the right to life Kludge?

Fuck plants.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Fuck plants.

You are one kinky dude...we may need to pass a law against that. Plants have a right not to be molested by Kludge.

 

[tremendoustie]

Well, if we're going to go that route, then I don't believe you are self-aware, no matter how often you tell me otherwise, as it is possibly a programmed survival instinct. Thus, you have no rights.

Ok -- if you think the most reasonable assumption is that you are the only self-aware being, then the conclusion that I do not have rights is reasonable. (now we know why people tend to be nervous around solipsists .)

For my part, I know I am self aware, so I will defend my rights. What's more, I believe you are too, so I will defend yours.

 

[garrettwombat]

some animals do have rights...

police task force dogs are officers of the law.
police equine are officers of the law.

both have rights to life and are protected under law.
along with assistance animals such as dogs, pigs, and miniature horses.
in addition all of the above can be emergency transported via ambulance or life flight at any given time to an emergency vet.

other animals who have the right to life are endangered or protected species.

in the united states laws go even further to protect all animals rights. it is illegal to harass an animal in any way that causes harm or constitutes as cruelty.


the line drawn between human and animal is entirely debatable and opinionated.
would you say humans have rights now?
would you say humans had rights 10,000 years ago?

humans just have a very large imagination. opinion varies from person to person.
people like to justify reasons for their own cause or a groups causes.
in other words there is no right or wrong.

To deny animal rights you have indiscriminately denied your own.

 

[0zzy]

Animals have rights, I think. They should only be used if you need them, they should be tortured or killed for no reason.

 

[Rael]

in the united states laws go even further to protect all animals rights. it is illegal to harass an animal in any way that causes harm or constitutes as cruelty.

Sometimes when giving my dog a treat I deliberately delay to watch him beg and drool, while threatening to eat the treat myself. and sometimes I manipulate his chin to make it look like he is talking. He does not seem to mind though. Is this considered harassment?

 

[garrettwombat]

Sometimes when giving my dog a treat I deliberately delay to watch him beg and drool, while threatening to eat the treat myself. and sometimes I manipulate his chin to make it look like he is talking. He does not seem to mind though. Is this considered harassment?

of course that is defined as harassment...

does that hurt the dog though?

 

[garrettwombat]

even humankind cant determine if we have rights.
every few generations the laws and liberties get twisted, boiled down, or outright changed.

a man on death row can be justifiably killed.
a man on drugs can have his property stolen.
a man who commits a crime can have his liberties and happiness taken.

If "free will" can justify the right to have rights -
and that by using that very same free will can also justify you to not have rights...

..who can deny that everything out of everyone's filthy mouth is not just a debatable paradox?