Do Animals Have Natural Rights?

Do Animals Have Natural Rights?


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The Implications of Darwinian Thinking

I guess if you believe in macroevolution, then you would have to believe that animals have rights, since all humans are just evolved animals. But then that would mean you violate an animal's right to life whenever you hunt, kill, and eat it for food.
 
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I'll start by giving animals the right to petition, if they get enough signatures they can have more rights.

How can you give them that right when we don't even possess it. (I know, it is written down on a old parchment, but try to get the government to respond).
 
God said:
For what befalleth the children of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other, and they have all one breath; and man hath no pre-eminence above the beast: for all is vanity.

Nobody has any rights. Not God-given anyways. If somebody tries to rape you God isn't going to intervene (well not everytime).
 
I think all entities with the ability to feel pain or the ability to think have rights. The question would be how far the rights of the lesser intelligent species extend.
 
Wow. A Swing and a Miss

Nobody has any rights. Not God-given anyways. If somebody tries to rape you God isn't going to intervene (well not everytime).

You really know how to take a passage out of context, don't you? Congratulations for not understanding the motif of that book, the audience it's written to, the context of what the author is writing about, and the application it has in our lives today under God's sovereign rule. That passage has nothing to do with establishing human rights, and your using it as such just shows how little you know of God's inspired and inerrant Word of God.

Why don't you give your heart to Jesus before you try to misquote His words?
 
Its necessary for children to be legally protected from abuse and extreme neglect, but to argue that they have "rights" in the way I've defined them is a bit difficult. I would argue the same for pets. Adults are rational producers and traders and have a necessity for rights - but children's rights necessarily have to be more restrained.

To say that a child is afforded all the liberty of an adult is absurd. Parents give everything to a child, and restrict a majority of their action. As children grow and start engaging the adult world, they ought to be afforded more freedoms.

Children are becoming rational beings, and for this they should be respected.

Dogs, on the other hand, are not rational nor are they becoming rational. Like children, they should be protected legally from extreme abuse, but its ridiculous to consider that you have a "social contract" with a dog. What you might have is a mutually loving, affectionate relationship.

I would argue that it is quite reasonable, even obvious to say that my dog and I have a social contract. I expect and receive things from him, such as love and affection, as well as protecting me and my house. He expects from me love and affection, and food. The fact that he brings his bowl to me when its empty indicates that he does have that expectation.
 
Your entire argument is founded upon illogic.

So humans do not act?

All ethical systems require value-judgements.

Do they? What is your proof?

The concept of a right, as a moral concept, requires value-judgements.

Didn't Habermas establish freedom of speech rights using discourse ethics? Didn't Hoppe expand on this with argumentation ethics, establishing a full set of rights without value judgments?

Choices require value-judgements, or they're simply arbitrary. Free-will requires value-judgements.

So? How does this prove that ethical systems require value judgments?

Your own concept of a right incorporates value-judgements, and you have in multiple cases made value-judgements.

Nope, my own concept of a right does not incorporate value judgments. I use the standard definition for right, I do not incorporate judgments of "good" and "bad" or "beautiful" and "ugly" or any other measure of value into the ethical system.

Human beings are value-seeking creatures.

So? How does this effect an ethical system? Are there objective values?

Any definition of what it means to be human has to include this.

Where did I attempt to define what it means to be human?

By saying that the self-owned human who engages in an act of unprovoked violence against another self-owned human is "denying their own self-ownership" you are implying something that defeats your entire argument: That someone can choose not to own themselves, or to defeat the recognition of their self-ownership from a societal standpoint. For this to be a negative would mean the self-owner values his self-owned status.

The logical extension of your argument is that one cannot lease out one's property, cannot sell one's fruit of labor, and cannot work for a wage, because in all of these cases, the action-originator is selling or renting out a part of his self ownership. This, however, is a false argument. It is clear that if you own yourself, you are able to decide what to do with yourself. This includes contracting out your self ownership and the immediate consequences of your self ownership, whether explicitly (in the form of contracts) or implicitly (via estoppel).

Therefore "self-ownership" is not axiomatic.

Which I did not state. Self ownership is a corollary of free will which is a corollary of human action.

Free-will is obvious, but this does not automatically lead to the concept of self-ownership. Its a choice.

Having a fee will necessarily leads us to the concept of self ownership. You cannot have a free will unless you have your own thoughts that are completely separate from outside influences. That implies self ownership.

To choose not to own yourself is, of course, self-destructive and illogical - but human beings have the unique capacity to engage in self-destructive behavior by choice.

So here you admit that one can deny one's own self ownership? This contradicts your statement that one cannot deny one's own self ownership.

A human can choose to become a slave to another human. A human can also choose to commit suicide.

Exactly. One can deny one's own self-ownership. This is why when one aggresses against someone who also has self-ownership, one implicitly denies one's own self ownership.

Therefore self-ownership is a choice

Which is what I've argued.

not an axiomatic fact.

Which I've never said it is.

At any point a human can choose to own himself, or he can choose to let someone else own him, or he can choose to let society own him.

Exactly. This is why my value-free principles for justice and ethics is valid and sound.

The self-actualized human that thinks for himself and refuses to let anyone own him does so because he has made a value-judgement: he has judged his own life as valuable.

How does an individual's subjective value judgments disprove a value-free ethical system?

It is entirely possible to judge one's own life as worthless - we see it every day - and to abdicate any responsibility of ownership over your body and mind.

Yup. You're agreeing 100% with the ethical system I outlined earlier.

Of course, self-ownership is special. At any point in time you can reclaim it, because you ARE yourself. You can't stop being yourself. But to actually OWN yourself requires cognition.

Example: a rock is itself, but it does not own itself. Ownership implies and requires choice.

So here you yourself admit that self ownership comes from free will, something you denied a mere few sentences ago.

To make any choice requires values.

Yup. I never denied that.

Value-judgements are therefore necessary to any self-owned human

Yup. I never denied that.

and necessary to the concept of a right.

How so? This is a non sequitur:

Humans have value judgments.
Therefore, ethical systems need to include value judgments​

Your argument simply does not follow.

The self-owned person values his life, and chooses to own it.

Yup. Never denied that either. How does that effect an ethical system?
 
I must quote myself, because apparently nobody is reading it. Rights are a logical extension of human action:

No, because natural rights come from free will. Animals, as far as we know, are deterministic organisms, unlike humans.

Free will grants us an axiomatic, praxeological basis. We know that humans act. To deny this, you would have to act, proving yourself wrong. As a corollary to human action, we know that humans have free will. Without free will, human action would not be purposeful or meaningful. In order to deny this, you would have to use your free will to deny the existence of free will, therefore proving yourself wrong. From free will, we know that there must be an originator of free will - what we shall call the mind. The mind is the originator of all thoughts of a given being, making it the legitimate owner of it. So because of the existence of the mind, we know that every being with free will is a self-owner. From this, we can deduce that all property homesteaded by such beings is owned by the homesteader, since this property ownership is a natural extension of self-ownership.

From all of the above, we can deduce that anyone who coerces or uses violence on another being capable of free will essentially enters a logical contradiction: by denying the free will/self-ownership of a being capable of free will/self-ownership, the action-originator denies his own free will/self-ownership. The action-originator implicitly allows any other being capable of free will/self-ownership to exact justice for the victim against the action-originator by using force.

So there we have it. A value-free system of justice that establishes certain "rights."
 
I didn't bother to read the thread because it is as simple as this-- take humans off of the planet and out of the equation and rights disappear. This is a human concept, nothing more. The real question is why we even bother to treat animals like they have any rights at all?
 
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I guess if you believe in macroevolution, then you would have to believe that animals have rights, since all humans are just evolved animals. But then that would mean you violate an animal's right to life whenever you hunt, kill, and eat it for food.

What part of thou shall not kill don't you understand?
 
I didn't bother to read the thread because it is as simple as this-- take humans off of the planet and out of the equation and rights disappear. This is a human concept, nothing more. Anybody who ponders this is wasting time.

Aren't rights inherent in free will?

The real question is why we even bother to treat animals like they have any rights at all?

Because people value emotions over reason. Kind of like this one:

That's kind of funny. Because in my house my dogs would have rights and you would not.
 
Because people value emotions over reason. Kind of like this one:

So what reason can you give me that your life should be considered more important than that of my dogs? The fact that you can articulate a thought better than it can? So is a person with a lower IQ entitled to less of a right thatn a person with a higher IQ?

Personally, I know who I am and what I think. It is the only reason that any of us knows. The question after that is if you can live with yourself. Personally, I lose no sleep over my postitions.
 
If humans have natural rights... why are we in this mess? The answer is we do not have any rights we cannot defend.
 
Aren't rights inherent in free will?


Fuck no. And what makes you so sure we have any free will at all? Day in and day out all I see is people doing the shit over and over again complaining about one thing or another. If people have free will they certainly don't use it.


And no-- making a choice such as froot loops for breakfast or captain crunch doesn't prove it. Most people were conditioned to make predictable choices by their parents or their churchs or whatever social group they belong to.


My personal feeling on the subject of free will is that its a coping mechanism we invented to deal with mental slavery. Since your basis for the argument of rights is arbitrarily derived from having free will I don't see how we can reconcile our differences.
 
So what reason can you give me that your life should be considered more important than that of my dogs? The fact that you can articulate a thought better than it can? So is a person with a lower IQ entitled to less of a right thatn a person with a higher IQ?

Straw man: I never said that intelligence or articulation are factors. Read the second post in this thread.

Personally, I know who I am and what I think. It is the only reason that any of us knows. The question after that is if you can live with yourself. Personally, I lose no sleep over my postitions.

What? This doesn't even make any sense.
 

So free will doesn't necessitate a thought originator (i.e. the mind or soul)? And a thought originator doesn't necessitate self-ownership (if your thoughts are yours, you own them by definition)? And violation of others' self ownership doesn't estopp you to give up your own self-ownership?

And what makes you so sure we have any free will at all?

Ahh, the irony of someone using their free will to argue that they do not have free will.

Day in and day out all I see is people doing the shit over and over again complaining about one thing or another. If people have free will they certainly don't use it.

People don't make conscious decisions over what they do?

And no-- making a choice such as froot loops for breakfast or captain crunch doesn't prove it. Most people were conditioned to make predictable choices by their parents or their churchs or whatever social group they belong to.

So going to church and having particular parents dictates what you will do with the rest of your life with 100% certainty?

My personal feeling on the subject of free will is that its a coping mechanism we invented to deal with mental slavery. Since your basis for the argument of rights is arbitrarily derived from having free will I don't see how we can reconcile our differences.

So everything in your life necessarily dictates everything you will do in the future using with a 100% certainty?

That argument collapses on its own weight. Past actions cannot determine for sure what you will do in the future, it can only indicate a certain path.
 
Straw man: I never said that intelligence or articulation are factors. Read the second post in this thread.


Well if you are to have reason you must have some sort of reasoning. I'm all ears.


What? This doesn't even make any sense.

Sure it does. We all have our own reasoning. It is why we all make different choices. Now you said I use emotion over reasoning. Which while it has some truth, it does not mean I am unreasonable. It means that in my reasoning I would care more about something I have an emotional attachment to rather than someting I do not have an emotional attachment too.

And remeber I'm talking about life vs life. I certainly would not let someone be consumed by fire to save my television or such.

Life means something different for us all. And reasonably the most importants life to us are the ones that have the most direct impact on our choices.

Sorry, that you are offended that I would choose an animal over you. But hey I'm sure you'd choose something I wouldn't agree with either at somepoint.

And I certainly could not say you made your choice based upon lack of reason. Emotion is a reason, and I obviously have reasoning for liking my dog better than a stranger.
 
If humans have natural rights... why are we in this mess? The answer is we do not have any rights we cannot defend.
You're confusing the definition of natural rights with the definition of legal rights here. Legal rights are rights (or even non-rights) recognized and protected by the justice system. Natural rights simply define the equal respect we deserve from each other and which others owe us by virtue of our _________ (insert whatever qualities you want here, such as "free will," "human dignity," or "self-ownership").

I think all entities with the ability to feel pain or the ability to think have rights. The question would be how far the rights of the lesser intelligent species extend.
This is my view as well, which is kind of funny, considering neither of us have articulated our opinions on what kind of rights animals have. ;) It's easy for us to define the rights of humans with respect to other humans, because we're the highest-order, most intelligent species we know of. We know that humans think, act, and have hopes and dreams for the future. In my opinion, our human rights of life, liberty, and property - with respect to each other - derive from our equal self-ownership. My life is my own, just as yours is your own, and neither of us are "better" than the other in the sense that we deserve to take full or partial ownership of any other person.

As humans, we generally desire respect from each other, and we're intelligent enough to know and understand this and come up with reasons why. The idea of natural rights and self-ownership becomes a lot hazier when we start talking about animals, though. In many ways, animals are sentient enough to possess some of the same traits that give our own lives and self-ownership meaning...but in many other ways, they are not. Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, and we don't even know if they have hopes and dreams for the future...but we do know they feel love, affection, fear, and pain, they have complex social interactions, and they're actually smart enough that they can construct and use tools. Bonobos are farther from us genetically, but in many ways they might be smarter than us, since they've already figured out that settling tribal disputes with sex contests is quite preferable to settling them with brutal violence. ;) Dogs are still similar to us in many ways, but they're farther from us than apes and still less sentient, and in general, every step farther from humans is another step backward in sentience. Bacteria, for instance, are hardly worthy of consideration except when they threaten us (they're not animals anyway, but still). ;)

So...do animals have natural rights with respect to each other? With respect to other animals of the same species, I believe that animals probably have the same kind of rights that we do, stemming from self-ownership with respect to other members of their species. I mean, even if you're Chimpanzee Ed and your neighbor is Chimpanzee Bob, you don't want him taking it upon himself to kill you. After all, Bob can do with his life as he pleases, but your life is your own...and you'll fight to protect it, too. Interestingly, tribal animals do form societies where they they have some primitive and instinctual notion of rights, and as I mentioned, bonobos might just be more sophisticated than we are with respect to their governance. ;)

The interesting question as it pertains to us is, do animals have natural rights with respect to us? That is a hard question. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." We may not be equal in individual talents or qualities, but we are equal in the sense that we all possess the same general range of sentience. We love, we laugh, we cry, we bleed, we create things, we think in abstractions, we have hopes and dreams, etc. Furthermore, in the event that some of us are "better" enough than others to justify taking partial ownership over the life of another, there's no way to objectively verify and demonstrate who is superior overall and/or by how much anyway, especially to the standard of proof that stripping someone of their liberty should demand! Any roughly equal lifeforms would deserve roughly equal consideration to what we should give to each other, and they would be equally self-owning with respect to us...but the less sentient that animals get, the less that rule applies. There are no other animals - not even chimps - who reach the level of sentience that we are at...but some are close enough that I'd be very hesitant treating them with anything other than respect and care.

I think our emotions can help to guide us here. Our emotions help let us know which animals "feel" close enough that they deserve respect, and they help let us get an instinctual feel for what kind of respect each animal may deserve from us. Our emotions aren't perfect indicators of course, and some people's emotions give them some really off-the-wall readings that place the value of a mosquito on par with the value of a human. ;) To give a more intermediate example though: Cows are nowhere near equal to us in terms of sentience, so it stands to reason we're probably enough "above" them that we can justify taking some degree of ownership over them. Are we far enough above them that killing and eating them is okay? I'd say, "Probably," but I could be wrong. Are we far enough above them that it's okay to torture them for the sick, sadistic fun of it? I'd say, "Hell no." I believe there's some universal truth about what kind of respect each species of animal deserves from us (and from our future alien overlords, may they look upon us with mercy ;)), but there's really no way for any of us to know the right answer for sure. The best each of us can do is make our case and try to find some kind of reasonable consensus about moral behavior.

The bottom line of this post, though - the point I really want to make - is this:
Our sentience, free will, capabilities, hopes, dreams, etc. contribute to our equal human dignity. Our rights - with respect to what we deserve from each other - derive from that equal human dignity and equal self-ownership with respect to each other. Simply put, because we are each equally dignified, or at least roughly so, we deserve to be free from the tyranny of another or by many others. Animals are markedly less dignified and sentient than we are, so it stands to reason that they do not necessarily deserve equal self-ownership with respect to human beings...it follows that we can justify at least some level of ownership over them and/or use them for our purposes. However, various animals are still dignified enough and close enough to us in terms of behavior and characteristics that we cannot justify entire, 100%, absolute ownership over them (see "sadistic animal torture" :rolleyes: )...and that's why we have these conversations about what kind of treatment of animals is morally acceptable.
 
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