Uriah
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- Jun 11, 2007
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I thought this was interesting. I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else. This is a facebook conversation prompted by a post a friend made.
Here is that post:http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/
And here is the facebook conversation:
I am providing this for discussion. Thoughts? Comments?
Here is that post:http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/
And here is the facebook conversation:
David: The "movement", as it is presented in the Western Press, has as one of its most prominent symbols of the "Opposition" attempting a coup in Ukraine, the red and black flag of Stepan Bandera.
Stepan Bandera was the founder and head of the OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and its military wing, the UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army). The flag is all over the Euromaidan, and a giant poster of Bandera has been hanging inside the Trade Union House, seized by the demonstrators and occupied as their headquarters for the past two months.
Who was Stepan Bandera, really?
Stepan Bandera was a leading Nazi collaborator during World War II. He organized a movement to declare Ukrainian independence from the Soviet Union in the 1930s, had strong ties to the Hitler regime prior to World War II, and organized underground support operations for the Nazi invasion. At one point, due to his push for Ukrainian independence, he was jailed by the Germans, but was later released and the collaboration during the war continued.
His armed unit, the UPA, which was run together with [General] Shukevich, was completely financed by Hitler, and supplied with weapons.
The OUN-UPA program was "Ukraine for Ukrainians Only" and "Death to the Enemies" -- meaning anyboy related to any past oppressor. That was the "rationale" for the massacre of 70 to 100,000 Poles by the Banderists in 1943-44, in a huge ethnic- cleansing operation.
At the end of the war, according to an official history of MI6, Bandera was recruited to work for British intelligence, to run terror operations inside the SU. At a later point, he was picked up by the Gehlen Organization after Gehlen was named head of BND in the early 1950s. So, the British-Nazi pedigree is clearly established.
In 2010, then-Ukrainian President Yushchenko gave a Hero of Ukraine award to Bandera. (He had already granted that award to Shukevich.) Bandera's grandson, also named Stepan Bandera, received the posthumous award. Yushchenko's (new) wife was a member of a Banderist youth group, and, according to some sources, the daughter of one of the leaders of Bandera's OUN.
David: To elaborate further:
Since the international media reports deliberately distorted information about Ukraine stated by politicians and officials in the EU and the USA, and this is used in support of the illegal actions of the guerrillas, the following is offered as a possibility.
1. The pretext for organizing the Euromaidan in Kiev was the refusal of the Government and the President of Ukraine to sign an Association Agreement with the EU. The content of this document, for the sake of which the Parliamentary opposition led people to the Maidan. The heart of the Agreement is the complete loss of Ukraine's sovereignty through the transfer to supranational agencies (the Council of Association and the Committee on Trade) of decision-making authority, placing them juridically above the Constitution and laws of Ukraine. It has been unconditionally proven that this contradicts the Declaration on the National Sovereignty of Ukraine, the Constitution of Ukraine, and decisions of the Constitutional Court of Ukraine. It also contradicts the expression of the will of the people of Ukraine in the referenda of March 17 and December 1, 1991.
Implementation of the Association Agreement with the EU would indisputably lead to the destruction of the country's economy, industry, agriculture, service sector, and science.
Signing the Association Agreement with the EU would lead to the total annihilation of state property, which is a competitor of oligarchs in the West.
The Association Agreement with the EU would eliminate the national and state sovereignty of Ukraine. Its embedded political convergence mechanism would liquidate political sovereignty as well, drawing Ukraine into the Joint Security and Defense Policy (JSDP). This anti-Russian project provides for the expulsion of the Russian Federation's Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol and Crimea as a whole, and draws Ukraine into the NATO military bloc.
These arguments confirm that the Agreement on Association of Ukraine with the EU is a project of the West for the takeover and colonization of Ukraine. Its implementation has been assigned to the Parliamentary opposition: the Batkivshchyna (Fatherland), Udar (Punch) of Klitschko, and Svoboda (Freedom) Parties.
2. Now look at the nature of the political forces that have organized the Euromaidan and today are conducting combat actions throughout the territory of Ukraine. The terrorists have not only launched bloodletting with law enforcement agencies, but are seizing government buildings, smashing and burning the party offices of their political opponents, and applying mob law against the citizens of Ukraine. This unquestionably threatens the safety and life of citizens, as well as their dignity and the inviolability of their property.
You should understand that, in supporting the actions of the guerrillas in Ukraine, by according them the status of "Euromaidan activists" who are taking part in so-called peaceful actions, we are directly protecting, inciting, and egging on Ukrainian neo-Nazis and neo-fascists.
None of these oppositionists (Yatsenyuk, Klitschko, and Tyahnybok) hide that they are continuing the ideology and the practices of the OUN-UPA. They punctuate all of their speeches at the Maidan with cries of "Glory to Ukraine — to the Heroes Glory!" This Nazi greeting was adopted by the Ukrainian nationalists in April 1941 (at the Second Assembly of the OUN), and was copied from the analogous slogans of Hitler's Nazi Party.
Other regular slogans of the Maidan are "Glory to Ukraine — Death to the Enemies," "Ukraine above All," "Ukraine for Ukrainians," "Stab the Muscovites and Hang the Communists."
Wherever the Euromaidan people go in Ukraine, they disseminate, besides the slogans mentioned above, neo-Nazi, racist symbols such as the Wolf's Cross — one of the first emblems of Hitler's NSDAP Party; the Celtic Cross — one of the main neo-Nazi and racist symbols, denoting the superiority of the white race; and the numbers 14 and 88. The 14 refers to fourteen words of the American neo-Nazi David Lane, who was sentenced to 190 years in prison in the state of Indiana, USA, for racist civil rights violations and racketeering; while 88 is an encoded version of "Heil Hitler!" ("h" being the eighth letter of the Latin alphabet). Right Sector, which coordinates the guerrillas, uses the black-and-red flag in all its actions. It is a symbol of the Nazi ideology of "Blood and Soil," which in 1930 was consolidated as a certain sort of national socialist doctrine, which the Hitlerites used to justify their regime after coming to power in 1933.
Also confirming the neo-Nazi nature of the Euromaidan is the constant use of portraits of the bloody executioners of the Ukrainian people, Bandera and Shukhevich — agents of the Abwehr under the nicknames "Gray" and "Taras Chuprinka." On January 14 a portrait of Bandera was hung from the Kiev City Hall [occupied by demonstrators], as a provocation. After a scandal ensued, it was removed to the interior of the building. Also diabolical was the march by Maidan participants with torches through the central streets of Kiev on January 1, Bandera's birthday.
Not only the Kiev Maidan, but also the maidans unfolding in the regions of Ukraine are massively infected with Nazi ideology, and they are using the practices of their predecessors in their actions both against law enforcement agencies and against Ukrainian civilians (including their political opponents).
Washington and Brussels are either following the risky course of ignoring the Nazi nature of the Euromaidan, or they are consciously closing their eyes and covering up the fascist ideology of the Parliamentary opposition and the Euromaidan in Ukraine. It is appropriate to ask: "Have the UN, the EU, and the USA ceased to recognize the Charter and Verdict of the International War Crimes Tribunal at Nuremberg, where the Hitlerite Nazis and their henchmen were convicted? Have human rights ceased to be a value for the countries of the EU and the world community? Is the Ukrainian nationalists' devotion to Hitler and his mass murders of civilians now considered democracy?"
David: Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Lukashevich: Why Doesn't The West See the Swastikas in Kiev?
On Thursday, Alexander Lukashevich, spokesman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, raised the question explicitly, as to why the Western international community does not see and react to the evident neo-Nazi nature of the Ukrainian radical protesters.
In particular, he spoke against the United States' backing for the idea of unilaterally imposing sanctions on individual leaders in Ukraine, saying that any actions should be approved by the UN Security Council. Without that, national unilateral measures are illegitimate from the point of international law.
Among his remarks covered by Itar-Tass news agency:
"We have turned the attention of journalists and international politicians to the fact that there has been no reaction from the global community to the slogans some radicals chant in Ukraine. They are clearly neo-Nazi. Swastika signs appear not only on a number of buildings but also inside them. Yet there is no adequate response to 'the smell of anti-Semitism,' noticed by some Jewish organizations. The 'brown plague' is a phenomenon we once banished together, and we do not want it to reappear in new forms."
Scott: Wow. The contrast between the news and the in depth history you just provided is startling.
David: Books to read that help broaden this understanding: (1) MI6: Inside the covert world of her majesty's Secret Intelligence Service (2) Hitler's Shadow: Nazi war criminals, US Intelligence, and the cold war. I also would add the Bandera worked for MI6 and the CIA and was assassinated by The Soviet Union in the 1950's. He was a very important asset for those organizations.
David: Thank god we still have the internet. Most of what the news outlets report is so contaminated that it carries almost no useful information.
Joseph:preview of America...
Brian: Hugh what's your take on this?
Hugh: Brian Wow, lots of thoughts. It's been on my mind a lot because people here in Estonia are talking about it. Basically, the decision that faces the Ukraine is one where there is no 'right' answer - neither having closer ties with Russia nor closer ties with (and eventually joining) the EU is innately better or worse. The problem is that the two are basically mutually exclusive and the country is too finely balanced between the two options to really commit to one or the other on a sustained level. This is mostly because the decision breaks down along ethnic lines - Ukrainian-speakers want to go with the EU and are suspicious of Russia, Russian-speakers want to go with Russia and are suspicious of the EU. Although there are obviously some exceptions, to a large extent people's position reflects their ethnicity.
So it's basically your classic unsolvable political problem - a major decision, where there's no mutually satisfactory option, where the population is almost evenly divided and people are very disinclined to change their minds. It's not a coincidence that the Ukraine ripped itself in half about exactly the same issue ten years ago. (At least then they managed to mostly avoid vthe violence).
It's true that Yanukovich is corrupt and that there are far-right activists among the pro-EU protesters, but neither of those really gets to the core of the issue. Even if Yanukovich wasn't corrupt and the far-right activists were sitting at home, the issue would still be there.
It seems that we're going to have an election this year, that will presumably be fought chiefly on the EU vs Russia issue, but I don't think that will resolve the issue, because whichever side wins, it will only be a very narrow victory. (Again, this is what happened in 2004).
David: There is a third way.
Hugh: @David: Let me guess, to have close relations with neither Russia nor the EU? Obviously that avoids the dilemma, but I don't think there is any constituency for that.
Jürgen: Also - just to be fair for the Ukrainians that collaborated with the Germans in the Second World War. Most of them did not consider it treason, rather, they viewed the Second World War as a continuation of the Russian Civil War that pitted royalist White forces against Bolschewik Red forces.
David: But to use that as a rallying cry today given all that has gone on is interesting. You rally your country using with swastikas and a person [in history] who was recognized as having been Poles and others in an extermination operation is also very interesting.
Jürgen: Can I see an academic souce pertaining to these exterminations? Not that I deny that they exist - just not familiar. And no worries - I agree that prancing behind a Swastika is probably not a good call ahah
David: I believe I gave references above.
Jürgen: I just see books and I can`t quite access any where I am at. Any online academic journals or so?
Hugh: @Jurgen: Here's an excerpt from a book - http://hnn.us/article/122778
Who Was Stepan Bandera?
hnn.us
Norman J.W. Goda is Braman Professor of Holocaust Studies at the University of F...See More
I am providing this for discussion. Thoughts? Comments?
