Depressed?

[Acala]

chronic depression

Thanks for the personal info. Of course your remote drug history would not be relevant to “being on” an antidepressant, and one glass of wine a week is negligible - but… While two cups of coffee per day may not seem like much, try going three days without it. Caffeine is not only very addictive, it is physically addictive. Whether it disqualifies you or not will only be revealed to you regarding how you feel on day three. But since you have revealed your usage, “disqualification” is actually moot point; since I now know your level of fucntioning.

Now back to the debate. Do you disagree that state tyranny could be the cause for huge amounts of depression, and that it would be very therapeutic for many sufferers to recognize it as such?

The CAUSE of chronic depression is almost always chronic stress. Chronic stress can be caused by unskillful response to any of the challenges that EVERY life presents. The difficulties created by tyrannical government would be included on the list, as are difficult jobs, difficult relationships, chronic illness, and on and on. The more intense and prolonged the stressor, the greater the skill needed to process. Removing bad government would still leave a long list of stressors. A person who is unskillful in processing difficult life experiences will suffer depression under ANY regime and, on the other hand, a person who processes those same experiences skillfully can find happiness in the bowels of the Third Reich. In other words, it isn't about the stressor. Every conceivable life will have stressors. It is about how stress is processed internally.

And once the cycle of chronic depression starts, NO stressors are required. It is self-sustaining because the disease itself creates the conditions for its progress and makes the natural cure very difficult to implement. The deeply depressed person can't meditate, can't do yoga, can't go out for a walk, etc. So they just get worse. This is why anti-depressants actually have a valid function in the short term for the severely depressed by breaking the cycle. Once the patient becomes functional again, they can then make life changes to prevent a relapse and get off the drug.

I would be interested to see any clinical studies that show that finding someone to blame helps with depression. In the absence of such, I would suspect it is of no help since I don't see how it reduces chronic stress or changes the way a person processes experience. In fact, I think finding fault and directing blame is actually a very common symptom of depression, rather than a therapy. The depressive sees an obstacle to their happiness everywhere they look.

And your comment about coffee is silly. I have stopped drinking coffee several times for different reasons. The result is a mild headache that lasts for two days. And then I slit my wrists. Suspecting that anyone who drinks coffee or tea is a self-medicating depressive is a bit out there.

 

[idirtify]

The CAUSE of chronic depression is almost always chronic stress. Chronic stress can be caused by unskillful response to any of the challenges that EVERY life presents. The difficulties created by tyrannical government would be included on the list, as are difficult jobs, difficult relationships, chronic illness, and on and on. The more intense and prolonged the stressor, the greater the skill needed to process. Removing bad government would still leave a long list of stressors. A person who is unskillful in processing difficult life experiences will suffer depression under ANY regime and, on the other hand, a person who processes those same experiences skillfully can find happiness in the bowels of the Third Reich. In other words, it isn't about the stressor. Every conceivable life will have stressors. It is about how stress is processed internally.

And once the cycle of chronic depression starts, NO stressors are required. It is self-sustaining because the disease itself creates the conditions for its progress and makes the natural cure very difficult to implement. The deeply depressed person can't meditate, can't do yoga, can't go out for a walk, etc. So they just get worse. This is why anti-depressants actually have a valid function in the short term for the severely depressed by breaking the cycle. Once the patient becomes functional again, they can then make life changes to prevent a relapse and get off the drug.

I would be interested to see any clinical studies that show that finding someone to blame helps with depression. In the absence of such, I would suspect it is of no help since I don't see how it reduces chronic stress or changes the way a person processes experience. In fact, I think finding fault and directing blame is actually a very common symptom of depression, rather than a therapy. The depressive sees an obstacle to their happiness everywhere they look.

And your comment about coffee is silly. I have stopped drinking coffee several times for different reasons. The result is a mild headache that lasts for two days. And then I slit my wrists. Suspecting that anyone who drinks coffee or tea is a self-medicating depressive is a bit out there.

I understand clinical depression and antidepressants; but self-sustaining mechanisms of depression, like “chronic stress”, are less relevant to a discussion about original causes. Sustaining elements do not discount external causes or the fact that discovering/understanding those causes is very therapeutic all by its self. Childhood trauma is one thing; chronic stress is another. Their only relationship is that the former is often implicated in creating the latter.

In fact, if you would rather focus on the contribution of chronic stress, we can do that – and I can make the same points with no loss of the same logic. You include “tyrannical government” as only one amongst a long list of OTHER stressors like “difficult jobs”, “difficult relationships”, and “chronic illness”. So let’s have a look at your three examples. Although you clearly attempt to separate tyrannical government from the rest (in order to minimize its role), how can you imply that tyrannical government is not involved in making jobs and relationships more stressful? Even a cursory understanding of tyrannical government indicates that it’s highly involved, and I doubt that many who have hung around here very long would disagree. And how can you imply that tyrannical government is not responsible to any degree in making illness more stressful (maybe even playing a part in creating illness)? Maybe you aren’t familiar with the health care crisis and how government caused it?

It’s unfortunate that you would rather blame the person for his depression, instead of blaming a very likely culprit that is clearly involved in causing a great many cases. Of course one person’s skill to deal with stress will vary from another’s, but isn’t it better to focus on the cause instead of blaming the victim? After all, early trauma is a notorious candidate for having caused the reduced ability that you cite. And your comments discrediting the therapeutic value of finding fault and directing blame contradict countless principles of liberty and problem solving and MENTAL HEALTH and etc. Granted that if the problem is not addressed, it will not be solved; but it’s also true that if the patient knows not from where his misery comes, his confusion will only exacerbate it AND will likely be responsible for the creation of much more stress.

That being said, I do not discredit techniques of stress management like meditation (although I don’t know how you mesh meditation with coffee). I am only trying to put them in their place regarding the great therapeutic value of recognizing a huge source of external stress (that generally goes under addressed).

My comments about coffee/caffeine may be silly elsewhere; but unless you want to try to tell me that you drink it for nothing but the taste, it’s very relevant in this discussion. A “mild headache that lasts for two days” – yeah right! It’s only MILD because you’re loaded up with pain relievers for two days. As I said, it’s PHYSICALLY addictive. And the headaches are NOT mild. Ask ANY honest coffee drinker.

Finally, I must highlight this. You wrote:
“a person who processes those same experiences skillfully can find happiness in the bowels of the Third Reich.”
By “bowels”, I must assume you mean near death in a concentration camp. Do you want to confirm that before I comment?

 

[idirtify]

Redacted and sent via PM to the relevant party.

I'd rather the thread get back onto an advice-giving track, just in case the OP hasn't given up on the whole thing.

Sorry, I don’t move public discussion to PM discussions. It’s not fair to readers, there is no moderator influence, and there is no reason to engage in secrecy (it’s perfectly on-topic). So I won’t be replying to your PM. Please paste it here.

 

[MelissaWV]

Sorry, I don’t move public discussion to PM discussions. It’s not fair to readers, there is no moderator influence, and there is no reason to engage in secrecy (it’s perfectly on-topic). So I won’t be replying to your PM. Please paste it here.

Then call it a stalemate. I went back and reread the OP. I don't find your crusade relevant. I've already stated my stand on it. Frankly, I don't find it on-topic at all anymore, so I'm not about to continue. You can take your theory elsewhere, or you can espouse it here to no end, but it's just a theory, and it doesn't match the spirit of the original post in any sense. Your thinly-veiled insults added nothing to the discussion, and I'm done with those, too. The implication that respectfully moving a post to PM rather than waste a whole page on a message directed purely at you and further derailing a thread... the implication that this is "secrecy" rather than respect for the OP is absurd. Moderation wouldn't be needed for the post, either, so that implication is also off-base.

How about this? I had a square of chocolate at some point a few days ago while I was baking. This disqualifies me from ever speaking to you again. Done and done Have a good 'un.

 

[Acala]

last time

I'll respond one last time and then let you have the last word.

I understand clinical depression and antidepressants; but self-sustaining mechanisms of depression, like “chronic stress”, are less relevant to a discussion about original causes. Sustaining elements do not discount external causes or the fact that discovering/understanding those causes is very therapeutic all by its self. Childhood trauma is one thing; chronic stress is another. Their only relationship is that the former is often implicated in creating the latter.

I am not aware that identifying original causes, to the extent that is even possible, is therapeutic for depression. I spend a fair amount of time with clinical psych grad students and professors and have never heard of that as a standard treatment for depression. It sounds like Freudian psychoanalysis, which has NOT proven effective for depression.

In fact, if you would rather focus on the contribution of chronic stress,.

I focus on chronic stress because that is by far the main cause of chronic depression. The science backs this up.

we can do that – and I can make the same points with no loss of the same logic. You include “tyrannical government” as only one amongst a long list of OTHER stressors like “difficult jobs”, “difficult relationships”, and “chronic illness”. So let’s have a look at your three examples. Although you clearly attempt to separate tyrannical government from the rest (in order to minimize its role), how can you imply that tyrannical government is not involved in making jobs and relationships more stressful? Even a cursory understanding of tyrannical government indicates that it’s highly involved, and I doubt that many who have hung around here very long would disagree. And how can you imply that tyrannical government is not responsible to any degree in making illness more stressful (maybe even playing a part in creating illness)? Maybe you aren’t familiar with the health care crisis and how government caused it?

I think relationships, jobs, and illness are stressors regardless of the political environment. Although I will grant that at least in the case of jobs and illness, government can make it worse. But if you think life in a free society would be some kind of stress-free environment, I think you are wrong.

It’s unfortunate that you would rather blame the person for his depression, instead of blaming a very likely culprit that is clearly involved in causing a great many cases.,.

I am not interested in blame at all. That is your path. I consider it to be futile and counter-productive.

Of course one person’s skill to deal with stress will vary from another’s, but isn’t it better to focus on the cause instead of blaming the victim?

As I have said multiple times, the cause of chronic depression is chronic stress. You will NEVER cure it by removing stressors from life unless you live in a padded cell. Life in any imaginable scenario has stressors. People who do not respond to those stressors in a healthy way will likely suffer from chronic depression.

After all, early trauma is a notorious candidate for having caused the reduced ability that you cite.

It can be, but you can't change history. You must work with what you have.

And your comments discrediting the therapeutic value of finding fault and directing blame contradict countless principles of liberty and problem solving and MENTAL HEALTH and etc. .

We are talking about the disease of depression. It is a neurological condition. It is not a political problem, it is a mental health problem. You will not cure a person's depression through political action.

Granted that if the problem is not addressed, it will not be solved; but it’s also true that if the patient knows not from where his misery comes, his confusion will only exacerbate it AND will likely be responsible for the creation of much more stress.

You assume that everyone with chronic stress has some kind of hidden trauma in their background. I am not aware of any evidence to support that. Learn to manage chronic stress and depression will improve. No need to get on the couch and talk about your mom.

That being said, I do not discredit techniques of stress management like meditation (although I don’t know how you mesh meditation with coffee).).

The most dedicated and experienced meditators in the world - the Buddhist monks of Asia - are avid tea drinkers. In fact, the legend is that the monk who brought Buddhism to China cut off his own eyelids so he could meditate without getting sleepy. When his eyelids fell to the ground, the tea plant grew up. And the Sufi mystics of the Middle East also have a long tradition of using coffee to support their meditation practice. Nothing inconsistent at all between coffee use and meditation.

I am only trying to put them in their place regarding the great therapeutic value of recognizing a huge source of external stress (that generally goes under addressed).

I am not aware that there is any evidence for this therapy - especially when the supposed source of stress is something you can't do anything about.

My comments about coffee/caffeine may be silly elsewhere; but unless you want to try to tell me that you drink it for nothing but the taste, it’s very relevant in this discussion. A “mild headache that lasts for two days” – yeah right! It’s only MILD because you’re loaded up with pain relievers for two days. As I said, it’s PHYSICALLY addictive. And the headaches are NOT mild. Ask ANY honest coffee drinker.

Wow. Do you even drink coffee? You sound like everything you know about coffee comes from a DARE program. Lol.

Finally, I must highlight this. You wrote:
“a person who processes those same experiences skillfully can find happiness in the bowels of the Third Reich.”
By “bowels”, I must assume you mean near death in a concentration camp. Do you want to confirm that before I comment?

No, I mean living, loving, and working within a full-blown police state. Although people were known to not only find happiness but even have mystical experiences in concentration camps. However, the level of stress involved in daily torture would require an enormous level of skill to process. But people have done it.

Okay. I am sure I have not convinced you because you think there is some kind of political therapy for depression. There isn't. But the last word is yours.

 

[idirtify]

Then call it a stalemate. I went back and reread the OP. I don't find your crusade relevant. I've already stated my stand on it. Frankly, I don't find it on-topic at all anymore, so I'm not about to continue. You can take your theory elsewhere, or you can espouse it here to no end, but it's just a theory, and it doesn't match the spirit of the original post in any sense. Your thinly-veiled insults added nothing to the discussion, and I'm done with those, too. The implication that respectfully moving a post to PM rather than waste a whole page on a message directed purely at you and further derailing a thread... the implication that this is "secrecy" rather than respect for the OP is absurd. Moderation wouldn't be needed for the post, either, so that implication is also off-base.

How about this? I had a square of chocolate at some point a few days ago while I was baking. This disqualifies me from ever speaking to you again. Done and done Have a good 'un.

Wow. Apparently I hit a nerve somehow.

Call it whatever you want, throw a chocolate strawman if you want, and then run if you want. No big deal…It’s only your credibility.

For making such strong accusations (that my position is a “crusade”, that it’s “not relevant”, “not on-topic”, “thinly-veiled insults”, “adds nothing to the discussion”, “derailing”, “absurd”, and “off-base”), you sure lack any explanatory back-up.

How absolutely strange that someone (let alone two people) in this forum would be so passionately against the idea that state tyranny is responsible for causing a large amount of depression in the world and that it could be very therapeutic if sufferers would recognize this.

 

[idirtify]

I'll respond one last time and then let you have the last word.

You can stop posting whenever you want. You don’t need to announce it (only risks ANOTHER contradiction).

I am not aware that identifying original causes, to the extent that is even possible, is therapeutic for depression. I spend a fair amount of time with clinical psych grad students and professors and have never heard of that as a standard treatment for depression. It sounds like Freudian psychoanalysis, which has NOT proven effective for depression.

Why would you doubt that it’s possible to find the cause of a case of depression, or that finding it would be therapeutic?? Are you denying that depression often has an organic cause?

So an adult with depression comes in for counseling. Through counseling sessions, the therapist identifies that the original cause was child abuse. But you say you have never heard that it is standard treatment for the therapist to reveal the cause to the patient and that you see no therapeutic value in doing so. Surely you are not serious. I thought the first point of therapy was for the patient to learn and understand the nature/cause of their disorder/pain.

I focus on chronic stress because that is by far the main cause of chronic depression. The science backs this up.

If chronic stress is the main cause of chronic depression, then chronic insomnia is the main cause of PTSD. It seems you are intent on mistaking the symptom for the cause.

I think relationships, jobs, and illness are stressors regardless of the political environment.

I think so too. That’s why I never claimed otherwise. That’s because it doesn’t exclude my position in the slightest.

Although I will grant that at least in the case of jobs and illness, government can make it worse.

My position is that government CERTAINLY DOES make it worse in MANY (and possibly most) cases. Why are you so fervently attempting to discredit such a likely probability?

But if you think life in a free society would be some kind of stress-free environment, I think you are wrong.

Why would you think that I think that? I have never indicated a belief in any such utopia. Spare us your strawman.

I am not interested in blame at all. That is your path. I consider it to be futile and counter-productive.

That’s a doubly self-defeating comment. You say you are not interested in blaming, but then you proceed to blame me AND the act of blaming. And when combined with your previous blame of the patient (blaming the victim of depression for his lack of skill to deal with it), it becomes a triple contradiction.

As I have said multiple times, the cause of chronic depression is chronic stress. You will NEVER cure it by removing stressors from life unless you live in a padded cell. Life in any imaginable scenario has stressors. People who do not respond to those stressors in a healthy way will likely suffer from chronic depression.

Well not actually. Just above you said that chronic stress was only “the MAIN cause of chronic depression”. Now you claim it’s the unqualified/ONLY cause. Following that is a combination of two strawmen and one absolute exaggeration. While I have not been representing my position as a CURE (only good therapy), your assertion that it will NEVER cure it is in all likelihood false (as are most absolute exaggerations). Nor have I been claiming in any way that any life scenario is stressor-free.

It can be, but you can't change history. You must work with what you have.

Another strawman, but who’s counting. I have never made any reference to changing history; only that understanding it and working to change the future is therapeutic.

We are talking about the disease of depression. It is a neurological condition. It is not a political problem, it is a mental health problem. You will not cure a person's depression through political action.

Wow you are really racking up them scarecrows. 1) I know we are talking about depression; 2) I know it’s not (technically) a political issue; 3) I know it’s a mental health problem; 4) I have not been talking about CURING depression, let alone with MY political action. The only sentence that isn’t scaring crows is mostly fallacious; most depression is NOT a “neurological” condition – it’s mostly a psychological condition. That being said, there ARE types of depressions that ARE “neurological” (such as stroke-related, Parkinson’s-related, AIDS-related, etc).

You assume that everyone with chronic stress has some kind of hidden trauma in their background. I am not aware of any evidence to support that. Learn to manage chronic stress and depression will improve. No need to get on the couch and talk about your mom.

No I don’t. You have constructed this particular strawman out of an absolute exaggeration. I have never indicated that I assume that “EVERYONE with chronic stress has some kind of hidden trauma in their background”. But here you provide an important clue that you have not yet given; that you do not believe in psychotherapy. Well that would appear to explain some of your other objections. (Remind me to provide you with a clue about me.)

The most dedicated and experienced meditators in the world - the Buddhist monks of Asia - are avid tea drinkers. In fact, the legend is that the monk who brought Buddhism to China cut off his own eyelids so he could meditate without getting sleepy. When his eyelids fell to the ground, the tea plant grew up. And the Sufi mystics of the Middle East also have a long tradition of using coffee to support their meditation practice. Nothing inconsistent at all between coffee use and meditation.

Consistent coffee consumption would completely depend on the type of meditation and the goal. I mean if you practice “Asian Buddhist Monk Tea Meditation” or “Middle East Mystic Sufi Coffee Meditation” for the sole purpose of staying awake, then YES lots of coffee is certainly what you want.

I am not aware that there is any evidence for this therapy - especially when the supposed source of stress is something you can't do anything about.

Of course you aren’t aware of that. You don’t believe in psychotherapy.

Wow. Do you even drink coffee? You sound like everything you know about coffee comes from a DARE program. Lol.

No, obviously I don’t. If you disagree with my information about caffeine, why don’t you rebut it instead of joking?

No, I mean living, loving, and working within a full-blown police state. Although people were known to not only find happiness but even have mystical experiences in concentration camps. However, the level of stress involved in daily torture would require an enormous level of skill to process. But people have done it.

At best you are talking about an extreme minority of very skillful people whose skill/experience/existence is far from provable; at worst, a complete myth. In either case, how is it applicable to any of your disagreements?

Okay. I am sure I have not convinced you because you think there is some kind of political therapy for depression. There isn't. But the last word is yours.

Hmmm… “POLITICAL THERAPY for depression”. Kind of a catchy name. Thanks!

 

[DamianTV]

Vitamin D

Get it either via direct sunlight on the skin, or via a supplement. I doubt Milk has enough Vitamin D per daily servings to provided the needed daily amounts...

 

[steve005]

try rationalizing happiness like I have, it gets rid of all stress, goes something like this- I'm alive, so therefore I'm happy

 

[Baptist]

What happened to that thread started by that really depressed guy who was suicidal? I searched everywhere but can't find it. I wanted to bump it to see how he is doing.

Maybe the admins hid it and turned over his info the law enforcement?

 

[idirtify]

try rationalizing happiness like I have, it gets rid of all stress, goes something like this- I'm alive, so therefore I'm happy

We’ve already discussed LOWERING YOUR STANDARDS. It’s not really the best advice when compared to the natural therapeutic value of working to fight that which likely played a large role in causing your depression.

 

[DamianTV]

Ya know, there are a couple of types of depression. Sometimes, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brainpan. Other times, depression is caused by depressing situations.

I know it isnt funny, but in a way I do think it is kind of funny to a certain extent, that there are more doctors prescribing drugs for chemical imbalance depression for more and more people having situational depression.

 

[libertybrewcity]

Ya know, there are a couple of types of depression. Sometimes, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brainpan. Other times, depression is caused by depressing situations.

I know it isnt funny, but in a way I do think it is kind of funny to a certain extent, that there are more doctors prescribing drugs for chemical imbalance depression for more and more people having situational depression.

this is true. I think there needs to be reforms in the ways doctors prescribe medicines for depression..

 

[acptulsa]

Ya know, there are a couple of types of depression. Sometimes, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brainpan. Other times, depression is caused by depressing situations.

I know it isnt funny, but in a way I do think it is kind of funny to a certain extent, that there are more doctors prescribing drugs for chemical imbalance depression for more and more people having situational depression.

Yeah, nothing like treating the symptoms and ignoring the disease. Hard to implement a real cure that way. But drug pushers--illlegal or otherwise--don't care much for cures.

You missed one. Sometimes people with the brainpan imbalance get themselves into depressing situations. So, is this person in an advantageous spot because they're old pros? I guess you can always find a silver lining if you look--or reach--hard enough.