Depressed?

[Acala]

Not the same

HA! Yeah right. And the main source of pain is the nervous system.

You can't change your nervous system to eliminate pain - nor would you want to as pain serves a function.

You CAN change your baseline level of happiness by changing your mind.

The world is full of breath-taking beauty, awe-inspiring mystery, love, humor, and good will. If you are not seeing this, it is YOUR MIND that is preventing it.

Government is a nano-speck of dust in God's eye. If all your see is that dust, it is YOUR perception, YOUR mind, that is distorting the view.

Change your mind, change your world.

Depression is a condition of your nervous system, not a condition of the world.

 

[MelissaWV]

HA! Yeah right. And the main source of pain is the nervous system.

It is!

In all seriousness, depression and unhappiness are in how you deal with situations, not which situations you've been dealt. We all know people who have a lot going for them, but make Eeyore look like a little ray of sunshine. Most of us know people who seem to have everything going against them, and are mostly cheerful. Shit happens to everyone.

Depression renders you unable to "get over it" and might plunge you into a cycle of feeling guilty over feeling bad over something you deem trivial, but can't get past, and are depressed, so you feel guilty, and so on. You chase your tail and you keep telling yourself you're hopeless, stupid, etc., for not being able to stop. Unhappiness ... well ... some people are spoiled and could snap out of it, but don't.

So, yeah, whether it's chemical and you can't "cure" it (but can definitely "treat" it), or just all in your head and you're being a dork in need of perspective, most unhappiness DOES come from the mind.

The main source of pain IS the nervous system, by the way but a lot of it is also "in your head." I hate needles. I've certainly felt worse pain, but there's nothing nastier than watching a needle go into my arm. I have time to think about it, time to imagine I can see it settling into a vein, I can imagine with every breath or microscopic movement I make, that the needle is moving, that it's piercing and sucking out my blood and it's a nasty, nasty feeling. Of course, if I don't look at it, it doesn't bother me much at all. I've had the same experience with a variety of pain, from burns to knife wounds to boxcutter slashes, etc.; basically any skin-centric wound behaves that way for me.

 

[furface]

Be careful with St. John's wort. It can increase the risk of blood clots. It can be especially problematic with depression since depression also increases the risk of blood clots because of stress hormones.

You should take depression very seriously. It can kill or mame you. It has a very measurable impact encouraging heart disease and dementia.

Something you should understand is that our society is set up to stress out and depress people who don't want to tow the government line. I think a lot of depression in America is environmental.

 

[Acala]

Yes

It is!

In all seriousness, depression and unhappiness are in how you deal with situations, not which situations you've been dealt. We all know people who have a lot going for them, but make Eeyore look like a little ray of sunshine. Most of us know people who seem to have everything going against them, and are mostly cheerful. Shit happens to everyone.

Depression renders you unable to "get over it" and might plunge you into a cycle of feeling guilty over feeling bad over something you deem trivial, but can't get past, and are depressed, so you feel guilty, and so on. You chase your tail and you keep telling yourself you're hopeless, stupid, etc., for not being able to stop. Unhappiness ... well ... some people are spoiled and could snap out of it, but don't.

So, yeah, whether it's chemical and you can't "cure" it (but can definitely "treat" it), or just all in your head and you're being a dork in need of perspective, most unhappiness DOES come from the mind.

The main source of pain IS the nervous system, by the way but a lot of it is also "in your head." I hate needles. I've certainly felt worse pain, but there's nothing nastier than watching a needle go into my arm. I have time to think about it, time to imagine I can see it settling into a vein, I can imagine with every breath or microscopic movement I make, that the needle is moving, that it's piercing and sucking out my blood and it's a nasty, nasty feeling. Of course, if I don't look at it, it doesn't bother me much at all. I've had the same experience with a variety of pain, from burns to knife wounds to boxcutter slashes, etc.; basically any skin-centric wound behaves that way for me.

I didn't want to get into it because it might seem pretty far off the topic, but you are correct that a lot of physical pain is "in your head". At the very least, the habitual internal struggle against the pain experience makes the suffering much worse. If you accept the pain, it changes character. I am NOT saying you accept the conditions that cause the pain. Change them if you can. But struggling against the pain within your own body makes it worse. Really hard to explain how this works. The best example I have been able to come up with is with massage. If you have ever had a good massage, you know that there is pain involved as they work through the knots in your muscles. But because you surrender into the experience, knowing that it is healing, you don't suffer the way you would if the identical level of pain struck you at random from an unknown source. Your relationship to the pain is different.

 

[idirtify]

You can't change your nervous system to eliminate pain - nor would you want to as pain serves a function.

Yes I know, but the analogy shows the meaninglessness of claiming that the main source of unhappiness is the mind.

You CAN change your baseline level of happiness by changing your mind.

Believe me I’m all too familiar with the new-age self-help advice to “change your baseline level of happiness”, but it’s actually nothing more than advice to “lower your standards”. As I said, it’s just slave talk.

The world is full of breath-taking beauty, awe-inspiring mystery, love, humor, and good will. If you are not seeing this, it is YOUR MIND that is preventing it.

Not only is your continued claim inaccurate, it’s offensive to all the victims of external and unavoidable adversities and misfortunes – which have an uncanny ability to remove the sense of beauty. Hint: It’s offensive because you are telling them the adversities and misfortunes are their own fault.

Government is a nano-speck of dust in God's eye. If all your see is that dust, it is YOUR perception, YOUR mind, that is distorting the view.

Your continued attempt at GuruSpeak only exacerbates and escalates your offensive fallacy.

Change your mind, change your world.

…said one slave to another.

Depression is a condition of your nervous system, not a condition of the world.

The fact that you make the statement as an absolute assertion makes it BS. While there are cases of depression that fit your description, plenty of depression stems from real problems that were NOT self-incurred in any way.

 

[idirtify]

It is!

In all seriousness, depression and unhappiness are in how you deal with situations, not which situations you've been dealt.

Bullshit!

For one thing, you are not in good company. All manner of tyrants and slave holders and elitists have told their victims/subjects that suffering is a state of mind. It is not hard to see the self-serving agenda of this message when considering its source. It’s similar to dishonest rich people telling you that money is not important. It’s one of the biggest piles of bullshit ever sold to victims. For another thing, we aren’t in this forum to minimize real external tyranny, which causes real suffering and depression; OR to claim that the solution to the suffering is to change your way of thinking and lower your standards.

Wake up! The best way to happiness is to remove the REAL causes of suffering. After all, that is the standard operating procedure for problem-solving and happiness-seeking for virtually everyone virtually all the time. Is it not?

 

[idirtify]

I didn't want to get into it because it might seem pretty far off the topic, but you are correct that a lot of physical pain is "in your head". At the very least, the habitual internal struggle against the pain experience makes the suffering much worse. If you accept the pain, it changes character. I am NOT saying you accept the conditions that cause the pain. Change them if you can. But struggling against the pain within your own body makes it worse. Really hard to explain how this works. The best example I have been able to come up with is with massage. If you have ever had a good massage, you know that there is pain involved as they work through the knots in your muscles. But because you surrender into the experience, knowing that it is healing, you don't suffer the way you would if the identical level of pain struck you at random from an unknown source. Your relationship to the pain is different.

OK. Great. I’ll stop trying to solve problems. I’ll just go get a massage.

I’ll stop seeing pain as an indication that something real is wrong, and just assume that it’s in my head.

I’ll stop trying to refute messages that manifest tyranny with messages that manifest liberty, and I’ll just tell everyone to practice positive thinking.

 

[idirtify]

While I understand good mental health, a large part of it consists of righting what is wrong. I mean this whole forum is dedicated to understanding and fighting non-consensual tyranny; an inescapable external REAL adversity that causes MASS suffering and depression. NOT recognizing that REALITY certainly does no favor to those worst affected – and only benefits the oppressors.

 

[Acala]

confusion

Believe me I’m all too familiar with the new-age self-help advice to “change your baseline level of happiness”, but it’s actually nothing more than advice to “lower your standards”. As I said, it’s just slave talk.
.

You misunderstand. Or deliberately mischaracterize. I NEVER said accept external conditions or circumstances. I never said one thing about what your standards should be for the external conditions of your life. By all means try to change the world. I do.

What I have said applies to the way in which you internally process your experience of the world and your self. That is where chronic depression arises. The proof is all around you. The vast majority of people suffering from chronic depression are surrounded by people who live in essentially the same environment but do not suffer from depression. Why is that, in your theory?

Not only is your continued claim inaccurate, it’s offensive to all the victims of external and unavoidable adversities and misfortunes – which have an uncanny ability to remove the sense of beauty. Hint: It’s offensive because you are telling them the adversities and misfortunes are their own fault.
.

I said no such thing. EVERYONE suffers adversity. It is part of life. Adversity, pain, sickness and death. It isn't anyone's "fault". Grief in response to loss is normal. Fear in response to threat is normal. Sadness in response to unpleasant events is normal. Chronic depression is not.

Chronic depression is a measurable neurological pathology. Left untreated it causes the breakdown of bodily systems making the depressed person more susceptible to a variety of illnesses and early death.

Interesting that you find this offensive and refer to it as slave talk. In fact, what you are saying is that we are just leaves in the wind, not responsible at all for what we are or how we experience the world. That to me is slavery. Freedom to me is being able to find happiness regardless of conditions. If you let Dick Cheney ruin your day, he wins and you lose.

Try taking responsibility for your own mental state. It is part of being a responsible person. Blaming others for your sadness is weak and futile. Your view is the view of the victim. Of course there are real victims in the world - lots of them. But it is a condition to be shunned, not embraced and enshrined.

The fact that you make the statement as an absolute assertion makes it BS. While there are cases of depression that fit your description, plenty of depression stems from real problems that were NOT self-incurred in any way.

Real problems can trigger depression, but chronic depression is an unhealthy, unnatural response. In healthy people with healthy habits for processing their experience, real problems cause grief or anger and then the person GETS OVER It. The chronically depressed do not. They break down. And the problem ceases to be an external one.

 

[Acala]

Wow

OK. Great. I’ll stop trying to solve problems. I’ll just go get a massage.

I’ll stop seeing pain as an indication that something real is wrong, and just assume that it’s in my head.

I’ll stop trying to refute messages that manifest tyranny with messages that manifest liberty, and I’ll just tell everyone to practice positive thinking.

I hope you don't argue in favor of liberty with these techniques of deliberate distortion and obfuscation. It isn't very effective.

 

[Acala]

OP

While I understand good mental health, a large part of it consists of righting what is wrong. I mean this whole forum is dedicated to understanding and fighting non-consensual tyranny; an inescapable external REAL adversity that causes MASS suffering and depression. NOT recognizing that REALITY certainly does no favor to those worst affected – and only benefits the oppressors.

You will note that the OP asked about depression, not ending tyranny. So this thread is about chronic depression. If your prescription for chronic depression is to end tyranny I am afraid you aren't offering much help.

 

[MelissaWV]

Bullshit!

For one thing, you are not in good company. All manner of tyrants and slave holders and elitists have told their victims/subjects that suffering is a state of mind. It is not hard to see the self-serving agenda of this message when considering its source. It’s similar to dishonest rich people telling you that money is not important. It’s one of the biggest piles of bullshit ever sold to victims. For another thing, we aren’t in this forum to minimize real external tyranny, which causes real suffering and depression; OR to claim that the solution to the suffering is to change your way of thinking and lower your standards.

Wake up! The best way to happiness is to remove the REAL causes of suffering. After all, that is the standard operating procedure for problem-solving and happiness-seeking for virtually everyone virtually all the time. Is it not?

I didn't say to wish it all better. I think you're confusing depression with generic "sadness." Depression doesn't need a "REAL cause." There are people who seem to have everything, yet are depressed. You could have everything going your way, absolute freedom, absolutely wonderful things in your life... and be depressed.

There are real, horrifying problems everyone has to deal with in life. Attempting to solve those problems is important, but so is moving on when a problem can't be "solved." Seriously. There are things you can't fix. There are mountains you can't go over, and have to go around.

Your reactions are firmly under your control. Let's take Government as an example, since you like to harp on that. Government is intruding into our lives. It does so long before we can do much about it, and even before we are aware of it. Our parents feed us Government along with milk, and most of us were given Social Security numbers and birth certificates that catalogued us into the system. Not many people awaken before they start working that first job and start paying into the very system that enslaves them. The Government is the hand you're dealt.

You cannot change the actual situation in which you find yourself right now, being that it is a sum of the situations you've already been in. Can you understand that? You can only change the situations you may or will be in, in the future. You can only control your reaction to the hand you're dealt. Will you whine and complain and stamp your feet? Will you react violently and make a counterproductive statement via blood and mayhem? Will you become a part of the system and try to change it? Will you submit and become part of the machine that's eating you alive? You control your reactions.

Sitting around trying to change the "reasons" one is depressed, if one is REALLY depressed, is futile. The reason obviously already exists, and is in the past. Focus on something you can change to make your future situation better, and to make your present self better able to react positively, and you'll have something.

Point fingers eternally, and you'll have nothing.

 

[idirtify]

You misunderstand. Or deliberately mischaracterize. I NEVER said accept external conditions or circumstances. I never said one thing about what your standards should be for the external conditions of your life. By all means try to change the world. I do.

I said no such thing. EVERYONE suffers adversity. It is part of life. Adversity, pain, sickness and death. It isn't anyone's "fault". Grief in response to loss is normal. Fear in response to threat is normal. Sadness in response to unpleasant events is normal.

Here’s what you said:
“The world is full of breath-taking beauty, awe-inspiring mystery, love, humor, and good will. If you are not seeing this, it is YOUR MIND that is preventing it.”

That implies that the only cause of suffering/depression (redundant) is “YOUR MIND”. Hence, my comments ridiculing your position. If you are now claiming that’s not what you intended to convey, that’s different. Speaking of the MIND, I can’t read yours; I can only read your WORDS.

 

[idirtify]

I hope you don't argue in favor of liberty with these techniques of deliberate distortion and obfuscation. It isn't very effective.

My whole argument is that it’s better to fight for liberty. If one of us is deliberately distorting something, it’s the one who implies that the main effect of tyranny is in “your mind”.

 

[idirtify]

You will note that the OP asked about depression, not ending tyranny. So this thread is about chronic depression. If your prescription for chronic depression is to end tyranny I am afraid you aren't offering much help.

Obviously I am contesting the advice given in the OP as the best ways to fight depression, and suggesting that more depression is caused by tyranny than is generally recognized; and therefore the better cure is to eliminate the cause. If you must continue to object, don’t forget that most “chronic depression” can be traced back to childhood trauma and other such related things that can be understood as “tyranny”. So even if many solutions to chronic depression include things that improve mental outlook, those things are only bandaids; the real cure is to attack the root of the problem and eliminate the sources of tyranny.

 

[idirtify]

I didn't say to wish it all better. I think you're confusing depression with generic "sadness." Depression doesn't need a "REAL cause." There are people who seem to have everything, yet are depressed. You could have everything going your way, absolute freedom, absolutely wonderful things in your life... and be depressed.

There are real, horrifying problems everyone has to deal with in life. Attempting to solve those problems is important, but so is moving on when a problem can't be "solved." Seriously. There are things you can't fix. There are mountains you can't go over, and have to go around.

Your reactions are firmly under your control. Let's take Government as an example, since you like to harp on that. Government is intruding into our lives. It does so long before we can do much about it, and even before we are aware of it. Our parents feed us Government along with milk, and most of us were given Social Security numbers and birth certificates that catalogued us into the system. Not many people awaken before they start working that first job and start paying into the very system that enslaves them. The Government is the hand you're dealt.

You cannot change the actual situation in which you find yourself right now, being that it is a sum of the situations you've already been in. Can you understand that? You can only change the situations you may or will be in, in the future. You can only control your reaction to the hand you're dealt. Will you whine and complain and stamp your feet? Will you react violently and make a counterproductive statement via blood and mayhem? Will you become a part of the system and try to change it? Will you submit and become part of the machine that's eating you alive? You control your reactions.

Sitting around trying to change the "reasons" one is depressed, if one is REALLY depressed, is futile. The reason obviously already exists, and is in the past. Focus on something you can change to make your future situation better, and to make your present self better able to react positively, and you'll have something.

Point fingers eternally, and you'll have nothing.

While there are certainly some cases of depression that can not be associated with an environmental history of the patient, those are exceptions to the rule (and not finding does not equal not existing). The rule: Behavioral psychology has been discovering for quite some time that depression generally DOES have organic causes; such as childhood trauma (extreme stress / fear / suffering).

Actually, you acknowledge my point when you elaborately concede that government is largely responsible for our misery. It doesn’t matter that you claim it’s a situation that is impossible to change (since it happened in the past), you agree that tyranny is the bigger cause of depression. So my job is done.

Do not underestimate the psychological benefits of pointing fingers at legitimate external culprits in order to affect real change. We have been conditioned by our captors to focus on inferior approaches.

 

[Acala]

What I said

Here’s what you said:
“The world is full of breath-taking beauty, awe-inspiring mystery, love, humor, and good will. If you are not seeing this, it is YOUR MIND that is preventing it.”

That implies that the only cause of suffering/depression (redundant) is “YOUR MIND”. Hence, my comments ridiculing your position. If you are now claiming that’s not what you intended to convey, that’s different. Speaking of the MIND, I can’t read yours; I can only read your WORDS.

I stand by what I said, not what you read into it. If ruminating on the evils of government prevents you from enjoying a laugh or a sunset or a cool breeze, it is not the government that is preventing that. It is the way you are using your mind that distorts your perception.

 

[Acala]

Agreed

My whole argument is that it’s better to fight for liberty. If one of us is deliberately distorting something, it’s the one who implies that the main effect of tyranny is in “your mind”.

Absolutely fight for liberty. I never said otherwise and you are setting up a strawman there.

But if your advice to someone with chronic depression is to wait until the world is free from tyranny, well, . . . that is not very practical advice.

 

[Acala]

Absolutely

Obviously I am contesting the advice given in the OP as the best ways to fight depression, and suggesting that more depression is caused by tyranny than is generally recognized; and therefore the better cure is to eliminate the cause. If you must continue to object, don’t forget that most “chronic depression” can be traced back to childhood trauma and other such related things that can be understood as “tyranny”. So even if many solutions to chronic depression include things that improve mental outlook, those things are only bandaids; the real cure is to attack the root of the problem and eliminate the sources of tyranny.

I agree with you that childhood trauma - even subtle trauma - can lead to depression later on in life. It does this by creating unhealthy patterns in the way the person uses their mind. You can't go back in time and undo the events that caused the damage. But you CAN work IN THE PRESENT to repair the damage. That is what I am talking about.

And you can work in various ways to try to prevent other children from being traumatized. Getting government out of schools for one thing. But that isn't going to help the depression of the person who has already been traumatized. So that is really a different discussion.

 

[Acala]

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oops