Democracy in the Kingdom of God

[TER]

Of course I do.

Very good. I thought you didn't. I must have confused you with someone else.

 

[TER]

The author makes bunches of errors here. First of all, nowhere does he establish that the distinctions between people in the resurrection are a function of some being more righteous than others, as he says.

More importantly, he ignores the most explicit passage of Scripture addressing the differing degrees of reward for saints, which is a passage that totally undermines his argument: 1 Corinthians 3:10-14. This passage explicitly recognizes the distinction that the author of the OP tries to deny. The basis of salvation itself, and the basis of different rewards for the saved are two different things. The latter is a function of works. But a saint who lacks good works will not on that account not be saved, they will still be saved, but lack the additional rewards that they could have had by good works.

What then are the bunches of errors you are alluding to? I agree that he could have driven his point more with the verse from Corinthians which you suggested above. It was also a very short article addressing a topic that could probably fill pages upon pages. I just don't see where all the bunches of errors are. Please list them.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Originally Posted by TER

So you do agree that there be will those called great in the Kindgom of Heaven and those called the least in the Kindgom of Heaven (as Christ described), and what distinguishes these are the rewards they were given on account of the good works they did?

Of course I do.

Wait. Are you two claiming that one's salvation is dependent upon his works? Meaning you're saved by yourselves as opposed to grace by faith? Seems like that would be consistent with false Gospel. Cripes, if that's how it is, then, I imagine Jesus is likely up there right now talking about dang, I died for nothing if these cats are not only going to going to save themselves but in the name of themselves.

 

[erowe1]

Wait. Are you two claiming that one's salvation is dependent upon his works? Meaning you're saved by yourselves as opposed to grace by faith? Seems like that would be consistent with false Gospel. Cripes, if that's how it is, then, I imagine Jesus is likely up there right now talking about dang, I died for nothing.

That's the exact opposite of what I said. Or were you asking TER?

 

[Biblefundyfun]

My dad was fond of reminding me of this, too.

I'd have to agree with you here.

Sweet. The only thing my dearest dad ever did regarding religion/bible/etc in my whole life was show me how to get saved when I was petrified about going to hell. I have never heard him pray once. My Dad is not a preachy type and decided not to bring me up in the faith (but he has loved me unconditionally my whole life AKA he was always been quick to forgive me and not hold it against me for a whole heap'n help'n of foolishness throughout my days) as he was brought up in a closed brethren (later open brethren) home he and both his brothers as a result where put off. But he did own a bible and he opened it once at this time and showed me this verse. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Or it may have been this verse, I cant quite remember Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. At the time it [FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]alleviated[/FONT] my fears even though I still work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I have always found those who address their mum and dad directly in speaking as "mother" and "father" to be rather odd.

 

[Biblefundyfun]

PS. By Biblical Christianity I mean the Holy Bible/Scripture/writ etc. Essentially, in my opinion, the Holy Bible is Christianity. Just as the Koran is Muslim/Islam etc.
The traditions of men in ALL denominations don't hold any sway with me. And believe me I have had many years experience with the different denominations. This whole word will pass away but the word of God will not. I thank God so very much for his word MORE than anything else on this earth or in my life without it IE the contents within it, I would not be able to consider myself a Christian not withstanding those saints who may had been praying for me prior to deciding to pick it up and read it of course. further more without HolyWrit (and the Holy Ghost) within we would not be able to ably and easily discern what a lot a waffle the "Father" whose ramblings you chose to post here. Which are just that, ramblings! But its been good for "debate" at least.

 

[Natural Citizen]

That's the exact opposite of what I said. Or were you asking TER?

Well, I was going to share some thoughts on the author's specific piece there in the op but I kind of have to take the law of God approach if I'm going to disect his logic in the false paradigm that he offered. It's quirky what he did there by contemplating "Democracy in the Kingdom of Heaven" with "living in a Democracy."

I suppose I'm wondering what you're agreeing with TER on there. Mainly because I had jotted down some notes as I thought about it. I often do that prior to making a long post. And, then, sometimes I even change my mind and don't say anything but prefer to observe. I don't even want to debate either of you on it. I have no intention to become confrontational with either of you. I just want to understand what you two are agreeing and disagreeing on. TER is essentially claiming salvation by works. As is the author. But in the name of Democracy. Of course, the author did stimulate a false paradigm by equating Democracy with living in "a Democracy. " That creates another problem. It's deceptive.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Sweet. The only thing my dearest dad ever did regarding religion/bible/etc in my whole life was show me how to get saved when I was petrified about going to hell. I have never heard him pray once. My Dad is not a preachy type and decided not to bring me up in the faith (but he has loved me unconditionally my whole life AKA he was always been quick to forgive me and not hold it against me for a whole heap'n help'n of foolishness throughout my days) as he was brought up in a closed brethren (later open brethren) home he and both his brothers as a result where put off. But he did own a bible and he opened it once at this time and showed me this verse. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Or it may have been this verse, I cant quite remember Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. At the time it alleviated my fears even though I still work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I have always found those who address their mum and dad directly in speaking as "mother" and "father" to be rather odd.

Ha. Yeah, my dad was a Southern Baptist. I heard scripture on a daily basis. He knew and could recite the King James Bible by heart. And he lived it, too. Funny thing was that my mom was Catholic. And every time the priest would come to our house, my dad would say, I ain't callin you Father. The lord said to call no man father except for me. Or something like that.

 

[erowe1]

Well, I was going to share some thoughts on the author's specific piece there in the op but I kind of have to take the law of God approach if I'm going to disect his logic in the false paradigm that he offered. It's quirky what he did there by contemplating "Democracy in the Kingdom of Heaven" with "living in a Democracy."

I suppose I'm wondering what you're agreeing with TER on there. Mainly because I had jotted down some notes as I thought about it. I often do that prior to making a long post. And, then, sometimes I even change my mind and don't say anything but prefer to observe. I don't even want to debate either of you on it. I have no intention to become confrontational with either of you. I just want to understand what you two are agreeing and disagreeing on. TER is essentially claiming salvation by works. As is the author. But in the name of Democracy. Of course, the author did stimulate a false paradigm by equating Democracy with living in "a Democracy. " That creates another problem. It's deceptive.

I'll let TER speak for himself about what he believes. But I was saying that, while a person's works do not factor into whether or not they are saved, they do factor into the differing degrees of reward that saved people receive.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I'll let TER speak for himself about what he believes.

Sure. Agreed.

But I was saying that, while a person's works do not factor into whether or not they are saved

they do factor into the differing degrees of reward that saved people receive.

Worldly rewards, you mean? Or are you talking about a disciple of God praying for guidance or something like that? Being rewarded by being led to dod something? I guess I'm kind of thinking about the time God made that bet with Satan.

 

[lilymc]

Worldly rewards, you mean? Or are you talking about a disciple of God praying for guidance or something like that? Being rewarded by being led to dod something? I guess I'm kind of thinking about the time God made that bet with Satan.

Rewards in heaven.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Why do you believe this?

Dr. Steven Damick wrote quite a bit about it in his books and essays. I did other comparative religion studies as a catechumen as well.

I know the last time we had a chat on this you believed St John Chrysostom (among other Fathers) to be a Sola scripturist. This is not the case. See here.

 

[Biblefundyfun]

Ha. Yeah, my dad was a Southern Baptist. I heard scripture on a daily basis. He knew and could recite the King James Bible by heart. And he lived it, too. Funny thing was that my mom was Catholic. And every time the priest would come to our house, my dad would say, I ain't callin you Father. The lord said to call no man father except for me. Or something like that.

No offense old chap but your dad would NEVER have married a catholic if he was "living" the scripture especially if he could recite the King James 30,000 + scriptures by heart which I very much doubt. Why? Because scripture states that we are not to become unequally yoked in marriage. That said if your mum and dad have been happy together and brought you up in a happy loving home, and you yourself are a believer in Christ as savior then that's awesome. Keep praying for your mum.

 

[erowe1]

Dr. Steven Damick wrote quite a bit about it in his books and essays. I did other comparative religion studies as a catechumen as well.

I know the last time we had a chat on this you believed St John Chrysostom (among other Fathers) to be a Sola scripturist. This is not the case. See here.

So the reason you believe it is because that's what the Eastern Orthodox Church tells you?

Can you quote me saying that about Chrysostom? Pointing to one Christian who came around after the Council of Nicaea and saying he didn't believe in Sola Scriptura isn't the same thing as proving that nobody believed in Sola Scriptura until the 1600's.

I notice, by the way, that the link you provided also claims that Irenaeus didn't believe in Sola Scriptura. But look through the evidence the author gives to support that. There is not a single instance of Irenaeus ever saying anything at all that is inconsistent with Sola Scriptura.

 

[Natural Citizen]

No offense old chap but your dad would NEVER have married a catholic if he was "living" the scripture especially if he could recite the King James 30,000 + scriptures by heart which I very much doubt. Why? Because scripture states that we are not to become unequally yoked in marriage. That said if your mum and dad have been happy together and brought you up in a happy loving home, and you yourself are a believer in Christ as savior then that's awesome. Keep praying for your mum.

Yeah, he probably couldn't relistically recite it by heart. I guess I did overstate that. He knew it pretty good, though.

Actually, though, they were divorced when I was young. And he died a few years ago.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Rewards in heaven.

Oh, I see what he was saying now. Differing degrees of rewards of "saved" people. I've never read anything about that specifically. And if I did I don't remember it. Where does that logic come from? That there are different degrees of reward in heaven for saved people? Why wouldn't everyone be rewarded the same?

 

[erowe1]

Worldly rewards, you mean? Or are you talking about a disciple of God praying for guidance or something like that? Being rewarded by being led to dod something? I guess I'm kind of thinking about the time God made that bet with Satan.

No, heavenly rewards.

 

[Natural Citizen]

No, heavenly rewards.

Yeah, I figured out what you were saying after lily chimed in.

 

[lilymc]

Oh, I see what he was saying now. Differing degrees of rewards of "saved" people. I've never read anything about that specifically. And if I did I don't remember it. Where does that logic come from? That there are different degrees of reward in heaven for saved people? Why wouldn't everyone be rewarded the same?

Because God is good, and DOES want to reward us for our works and actions here on earth. It just doesn't have anything to do with salvation. But everything we do will be looked at, and that goes for all people. And in my understanding, there are different levels of reward (for those going to heaven) and punishment (for those who are not saved.)

It makes sense to me.

 

[Biblefundyfun]

Yeah, he probably couldn't relistically recite it by heart. I guess I did overstate that. He knew it pretty good, though.

Actually, though, they were divorced when I was young. And he died a few years ago.

Sorry to hear that bro. I've been divorced twice as a Christian would you believe? My first wife I met in Church, that lasted just over a year and I spent seven depressed dark years waiting hoping and praying for a restoration and she turned up out of the blue at my door step (within weeks of hearing of the demise of my second marriage which lasted seven years, telling me she was sorry and wanting to be friends again I MEAN WHAT THE?????) That would have been like jumping from a train wreck onto a train about to become another train wreck. I'm starting all over again at 49. My second wife took me to the cleaners and prevented me from spending much time with my son for over a year. Not only did I lose my family my home, my wife my son, but it cost me nearly 30 grand in legal bills to fight to be my sons dad. I very nearly topped myself, it was hellish. The good news is I now have equal time with my lad. But I'm starting all over again as a single man (with a wonderful son and my faith in Christ) and I plan to keep it that way. I'm with Paul on staying single. I wish I had taken his sound advise on board 25 years ago but my flesh is so weak and lets face it women are a beautiful creation. So kids, be very, very EXCEEDINGLY careful who you choose to marry, because at the end of the day, it is a choice and you are responsible for your choices!