Democracy in the Kingdom of God

[TER]

To keep things more simple, HB, I am referring to the Church we read about in the New Testament and whether any traditions were started by the Apostles. It seems like donnay is anti-tradition. Presumably, it is 'traditions of men' which she is against. Therefore, I would like to learn if she knows whether the Apostles started any traditions or not, and if so, were these mere 'traditions of men' which she claims should be fought against.

 

[TER]

I think the human sense of democracy and fairness stems from being made in the image of God, which includes a sense of justice. In that case, we begin life with an equal standing before God, but that does not make us equal, nor does it mean we will remain equal. the limits of the human heart will try to impose equality on all, and it becomes oppressive, rather than liberating. It is the Truth that sets us free.

Good post! I don't clearly understand, however, what you mean by 'the limits of the human heart will try to impose equality on all'. Can you elaborate on this? Thanks!

 

[TER]

Traditions of men make void the word of God--why so many people are confused.

What makes so many people confused is hypocrisy (which is actually what Jesus was reprimanding the Pharisees about when He spoke about traditions) and divisions. When there is steadfastness, virtue, and unity of faith, there is no confusion, which is why St. Paul and the other Apostles labored so hard to bring to the churches spread far and wide to unity in faith and mind and confession and worship, so that in unity they may find God as He is, and not what our mere minds may individually imagine Him to be.

 

[euphemia]

Good post! I don't clearly understand, however, what you mean by 'the limits of the human heart will try to impose equality on all'. Can you elaborate on this? Thanks!

Certainly. We are are humans, made in the image of God. We represent his character and his attributes on earth. However, we are not God. We are fallen human beings who are saved only by the grace and mercy of God through the blood of Christ. We don't suddenly become God. Our minds are human, with limits. It's our human nature to force equality based on what we see. God judges the heart.

 

[euphemia]

Speaking to the traditions, I don't think all traditions are wrong. The church we now attend is very big on tradition because it connects us to those who have gone before. Nobody thinks the traditions do anything toward salvation. They just make us more connected. Some traditons are good for the orderliness of worship. Our tradition is to come to the Lord's Table in a certain way to reduce confusion. Other churches do it differently because that is their tradition. It's not a rule, but a tradition.

 

[TER]

Certainly. We are are humans, made in the image of God. We represent his character and his attributes on earth. However, we are not God. We are fallen human beings who are saved only by the grace and mercy of God through the blood of Christ. We don't suddenly become God. Our minds are human, with limits. It's our human nature to force equality based on what we see. God judges the heart.

Thank you. I understand better now.

 

[Biblefundyfun]

I asssume Fr is an abbreviation is for friar. Friars are is a sect within the Roman Catholic church which is far from Christian orthodox. All Friars will fry because they are clearly trying to earn their salvation.

 

[TER]

Speaking to the traditions, I don't think all traditions are wrong. The church we now attend is very big on tradition because it connects us to those who have gone before. Nobody thinks the traditions do anything toward salvation. They just make us more connected. Some traditons are good for the orderliness of worship. Our tradition is to come to the Lord's Table in a certain way to reduce confusion. Other churches do it differently because that is their tradition. It's not a rule, but a tradition.

There are many good points you bring up which I would like to discuss further with you. It is nice to see that you understand that there do exist traditions within the life of the Church and the believers who make up the Church. Christ Himself told His disciples to 'do everything they [Pharisees] told them', referring to the holy traditions which where handed down from old. It was the hypocrisy and lack of mercy which Christ rallied against, and not the traditions per say.

There are some who take a novel (and modern) blindly 'anti-tradition' stance and do not understand that this has absolutely no place in the life of the Christian and never has been. It is completely against the history of Christianity and the instructive model initiated by the first Apostles and those who followed them.

We find many traditions starting in the Acts of the Apostles as well as in the Epistles. The Apostles implored their fellow believers to uphold these traditions and to pass them down. These, were, indeed, rules, and breaking these rules could mean excommunication and sacramental separation from the Holy Eucharist. They took obedience, meekness, and humility very seriously, and this first towards God and then next to those who God elevated as spiritual leaders. If not for traditions which are held fast and guarded, then we see the confusion you are mentioning in even greater degrees. We see this in the current landscape of the modern world, where the traditions are not a few varied, but rather varying in the millions, with individuals affirming their own personal ideas of what is correct and true, and elevating their notions to be the truth. This is indeed a tradition of many modern Christians. And so we have not a unity in faith and worship, but rather a cacophony of individual mental constructs, separated from the eternal truths and beneficial traditions handed down, and limited in scope according to the weakness of men. This tradition, which is related to the OP point regarding the modern egalitarianism so prevalent in this decaying civilization, is more a cause for confusion than any of the ones instituted by the Holy Apostles. Thus, we ask ourselves again, as I ask donnay, 'which are the traditions of men, which are good for nothing, and which are the traditions instituted by God, which are for the good of the Christian life in this world?'

 

[TER]

I asssume Fr is an abbreviation is for friar. Friars are is a sect within the Roman Catholic church which is far from Christian orthodox. All Friars will fry because they are clearly trying to earn their salvation.

He is not a 'friar'. Fr (in this instance) is short for "Father", referring to someone who is ordained a presbyter. The author is an Orthodox Christian. Within the Orthodox Church (as has been since the days of the New Testament), there is no individual sects or varying orders with the ascetic or monastic apart from that of Bishop, Presbyter, Deacon and Laity.

 

[Biblefundyfun]

He is not a 'friar'. Fr (in this instance) is short for "Father", referring to someone who is ordained a presbyter. The author is an Orthodox Christian. Within the Orthodox Church (as has been since the days of the New Testament), there is no individual sects or varying orders with the ascetic or monastic apart from that of Bishop, Presbyter, and Deacon.

Mathew 23.9

We don't call those who disciple in the faith "father" in biblical Christianity. Perhaps being a bible believer is no longer or in fact ever was Orthodox.

 

[TER]

Mathew 23.9

We don't call those who disciple in the faith "father" in biblical Christianity. Perhaps being a bible believer is no longer or in fact ever was Orthodox.

I am not sure what you mean by 'biblical Christianity' but I assume you are referring to the tradition of Sola Scriptura which was started relatively recently.

In the Scriptures themselves we find St. Paul calling himself a spiritual father to the believers in Corinth.

1 Corinthians 4:15

For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Therefore I urge you, imitate me. For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

But I do appreciate your qualification of 'we don't call those who disciple in the faith father'. Yet Jesus didn't say that in Matthew. He said call no man father. Do you believe, therefore, that it is a sin to call your father 'father' regardless if he disciplines you in the faith?

 

[donnay]

TER is referring to Big-C Churches. Specifically, those of Apostolic Lineage (Roman Catholic and non-schismatic Eastern Orthodox).

I understand, Thanks. Lot's of churches have traditions that are not necessarily Biblical but twist the translation to make people believe it is traditions of God and are not. The Rapture Theory is a good example. That's why out of the seven churches in the book of Revelations, Jesus commended Smyrna and Philadelphia for being faithful and following God's word and not traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”


Matthew 15:2 - 15:6

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he [Christ] answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


2 Thessalonians 3:6

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother, [It is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

 

[TER]

Donnay, you continue to ignore the question I asked you earlier. If we can continue with that dialogue, perhaps we can then move onto the quotes you mention above and discuss how they fit in.

I will try again: Did the Apsotles start any traditions?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I understand, Thanks. Lot's of churches have traditions that are not necessarily Biblical but twist the translation to make people believe it is traditions of God and are not. The Rapture Theory is a good example. That's why out of the seven churches in the book of Revelations, Jesus commended Smyrna and Philadelphia for being faithful and following God's word and not traditions of men.

Colossians 2:8

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”


Matthew 15:2 - 15:6

2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he [Christ] answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.


2 Thessalonians 3:6

“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.”

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother, [It is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Indeed. Proper tradition is that handed down from ancestors long past, not charlatans on teevee and pop media and assorted modern heretical groups. ~hugs~

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

[TER]

I would add that you are correct donnay in that there exist traditions which can be castigated as 'traditions of men' or 'traditions apart from God'. No one is denying this. The question is, how can we know which are the bad traditions which St. Paul is alluding to in some of the quotes above and which are the good traditions which St. Paul is alluding to in the others? Here is a hint: What did the same St. Paul say was the bulwark and foundation for the truth? Perhaps knowing that, we might better know which are the God-inspired traditions beneficial to the Christian and which are not and should be avoided.

In one breath, you post a quote which gives the impression that traditions (in general) are bad, and then in another, a quote which speaks to the traditions of the Apostles and how they must be handed down. The question, as asked above, is who or what determines which traditions are beneficial and which are not, which should be discarded and which should of be faithfully followed and handed down?

 

[donnay]

Donnay, you continue to ignore the question I asked you earlier. If we can continue with that dialogue, perhaps we can then move onto the quotes you mention above and discuss how they fit in.

I will try again: Did the Apsotles start any traditions?

I don't quite follow, in what respect--on their own accord or through the words of Jesus?

 

[TER]

I don't quite follow, in what respect--on their own accord or through the words of Jesus?

Through the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But more specifically, for reasons of this current dialogue, through the Holy Spirit after Christ ascended to be at the Right Hand of the Father.

 

[donnay]

I would add that you are correct donnay in that there exist traditions which can be castigated as 'traditions of men' or 'traditions apart from God'. No one is denying this. The question is, how can we know which are the bad traditions which St. Paul is alluding to in some of the quotes above and which are the good traditions which St. Paul is alluding to in the others? Here is a hint: What did the same St. Paul say was the bulwark and foundation for the truth? Perhaps knowing that, we might better know which are the God-inspired traditions beneficial to the Christian and which are not and should be avoided.

In one breath, you post a quote which gives the impression that traditions (in general) are bad, and then in another, a quote which speaks to the traditions of the Apostles and how they must be handed down. The question, as asked above, is who or what determines which traditions are beneficial and which are not, which should be discarded and which should of be faithfully followed and handed down?

I did answer your question: II Timothy 2:15 KJV


2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It is incumbent to each person to seek the truth and not listen to men, per se.

 

[TER]

I did answer your question: II Timothy 2:15 KJV


2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It is incumbent to each person to seek the truth and not listen to men, per se.

Then why did St. Paul tell his spiritual children to listen to him and to the Apostles? Were they not men? Perhaps because the authority lay not in them, but in the Holy Spirit in them?? And if so, perhaps it is because of the Holy Spirit in them which gives the authority regarding dividing which are good traditions and which are bad.

 

[TER]

Btw, while there are local non-dogmatic traditions which vary from region or nation and ones which change in time and space according to the challenges being faced by the members, the notion that we are to hand on to the teachings of our fathers before us is a fundamental Christian teaching, completely consistent with the history of Israel's relationship with God and the teachings handed down by Christ to His Apostles and the Church. We can say to be wary of traditions which are apart from God, but at the same time we should earnestly seek to find which are the ones which are according to His pleasure.

When we put even just a small effort in studying the writings of the early witnesses, we clearly learn how important good traditions are according to Christ and the Apostles, and to the Church Fathers and the Saints of the early Church. A great part, perhaps the very essence, of being a Christian is one of obedience and control over one's own will in order to find the will of God. This includes following the commandments of God and the traditions of God (whether in word or epistle) and no more reliably visible is the will of God discerned than through the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth. For it is God Himself working within the Church which gives it such great a power, just as it was God Himself working through the Church in the writing of the Holy Scriptures, which was one part of the fulfillment of the apostolic commission.