Delaware becomes 1st state to officially outlaw spanking

[AlexAmore]

While I usually snicker at the whole concept of the non-aggression principle, I find it especially hilarious to apply it to dealing with toddlers. Those little demons will eat you alive.

There are only two ways to persuade people. Logic and force. 2 year olds don't comprehend logic.

Ha, okay great logic you have here. 2 year olds don't understand logic....so let's hit em. 2 year olds don't understand logic, yet they understand the logic behind getting hit. They can't connect the dots, yet they can. *Headsplodes*

If they can't understand logic. If you hit the child, they will simply see this as an assault from their parent. They will learn nothing.

If they can understand logic. They will learn hitting smaller, weaker people is okay to resolve problems. Kids model after their parents all the time.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Ha, okay great logic you have here. 2 year olds don't understand logic....so let's hit em. 2 year olds don't understand logic, yet they understand the logic behind getting hit. They can't connect the dots, yet they can. *Headsplodes*

If they can't understand logic. If you hit the child, they will simply see this as an assault from their parent. They will learn nothing.

If they can understand logic. They will learn hitting smaller, weaker people is okay to resolve problems. Kids model after their parents all the time.

This. You are the example, the role-model for your children. How you act will teach them, and if they're smart, hopefully they come to their own conclusions, which usually means they understand the logic of what you're trying to do and their experience teaches them it doesn't work, or is counter-productive.

Children are much smarter and intelligent than anyone gives them credit for. They understand more than you can imagine. They're very intuitive. If you're telling them hitting others is wrong, and you go and hit them, they're going to know you're in the wrong, even if you have some blase justification for your wanton violence.

 

[tod evans]

Ha, okay great logic you have here. 2 year olds don't understand logic....so let's hit em. 2 year olds don't understand logic, yet they understand the logic behind getting hit. They can't connect the dots, yet they can. *Headsplodes*

If they can't understand logic. If you hit the child, they will simply see this as an assault from their parent. They will learn nothing.

If they can understand logic. They will learn hitting smaller, weaker people is okay to resolve problems. Kids model after their parents all the time.

A degree in child psychology at some uber-liberal college might be in your future...

Once you've obtained said degree and a suitable mate, procreate and care for your progeny for a couple of years.

Chances are your views might be a tad different...

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

A degree in child psychology at some uber-liberal college might be in your future...

Once you've obtained said degree and a suitable mate, procreate and care for your progeny for a couple of years.

Chances are your views might be a tad different...

The last scourge of the loser in any argument is attacking the character of those they are conversing with. So, advocating not violating your child's liberties, is 'uber-progressive', as if your connotation is that he is some sort of out in left-field crazy communist who has no idea about anything. How clever.

Guess what, Ron raised his children the same way we are advocating - simply to respect, reaffirm, and apply libertarianism to all aspects of your life. Violating another's liberty is wrong no matter if you gave that person life or not. You do not own another human being and acting like you have some sort of 'divine' right to lay your hands on another human being because you're a 'parent' is obscene. Parental tyranny is real, and very alive. Children are treated like animals, slaves, neanderthals. The State has stripped them of all their rights, and the Parent's continually justify their authoritarian powers in the name of the Child's good. It's sickening.

Outlaw child labor. Make them a slave. Well, you guys got what you want. You won the 'debate'. If the child 'runs away' from their parent, the State will come track him or her down, forcefully kidnap them, and bring them back to their plantation owner...sorry Parent. Parallels anyone?

It's even worse because there are hardly any advocates for their behalf. No one listens to 'children' (and this definition of child is constantly expanding in our crazy society. Many people consider even people as old as 20 'children'), because they like you think they are dumb, unable to use their God-endowed reason and logic, and act on their own accord. You're not any more special or gifted than any other child. I know children that can speak multiple languages, are smarter than most adults, and are more mature, but hey, what do I know.

 

[acptulsa]

It's even worse because there are hardly any advocates for their behalf. No one listens to 'children' (and this definition of child is constantly expanding in our crazy society. Many people consider even people as old as 20 'children'), because they like you think they are dumb, unable to use their God-endowed reason and logic, and act on their own accord. You're not any more special or gifted than any other child. I know children that can speak multiple languages, are smarter than most adults, and are more mature, but hey, what do I know.

You know how to rant and rave and foam at the mouth. You also do a good job of ignoring the fact that a two year old is not a six year old. And you know that propaganda requires you ignore a few simple, obvious facts such as even a kitten is capable of logic enough to understand, I do play with an electrical outlet I do get a swat; I don't play with the electrical outlet I don't get a swat.

What if two people were both right, but neither one knew it because they were both shouting propaganda instead of having a rational discussion?

 

[tod evans]

Moving back to page one in this thread;

Geeze, defensive much?

I'm not a libertarian either so any attempt to pigeon-hole me isn't going to work..

I don't need to "catch-up" as you put it, I've actually lived life for over 50 years, often in ways you can't imagine.

I'm guessing, (because you didn't actually answer) that you don't have kids?

It's really a shame that you would advocate for any more laws. You've been a member here for quite a while, hasn't it registered that politicians passing new legislation is a really large part of the mess our country is in?

Have a nice day.

I haven't "attacked" anyone or their character, I've merely suggested living life and educating one's self might be in order prior to attempting proscribe how others should raise their offspring.

If that makes me a "loser" in your eyes then so be it.

The voice of experience sounds much different than the voice philosophy, please by all means enjoy your philosophical outlook until reality kicks you in the teeth.

The last scourge of the loser in any argument is attacking the character of those they are conversing with. So, advocating not violating your child's liberties, is 'uber-progressive', as if your connotation is that he is some sort of out in left-field crazy communist who has no idea about anything. How clever.

Guess what, Ron raised his children the same way we are advocating - simply to respect, reaffirm, and apply libertarianism to all aspects of your life. Violating another's liberty is wrong no matter if you gave that person life or not. You do not own another human being and acting like you have some sort of 'divine' right to lay your hands on another human being because you're a 'parent' is obscene. Parental tyranny is real, and very alive. Children are treated like animals, slaves, neanderthals. The State has stripped them of all their rights, and the Parent's continually justify their authoritarian powers in the name of the Child's good. It's sickening.

Outlaw child labor. Make them a slave. Well, you guys got what you want. You won the 'debate'. If the child 'runs away' from their parent, the State will come track him or her down, forcefully kidnap them, and bring them back to their plantation owner...sorry Parent. Parallels anyone?

It's even worse because there are hardly any advocates for their behalf. No one listens to 'children', because they like you think they are dumb, unable to use their God-endowed reason and logic, and act on their own accord. You're not any more special or gifted than any other child. I know children that can speak multiple languages, are smarter than most adults, and are more mature, but hey, what do I know.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Moving back to page one in this thread;




I haven't "attacked" anyone or their character, I've merely suggested living life and educating one's self might be in order prior to attempting proscribe how others should raise their offspring.

If that makes me a "loser" in your eyes then so be it.

The voice of experience sounds much different than the voice philosophy, please by all means enjoy your philosophical outlook until reality kicks you in the teeth.

You've made claim, but simply making a claim is not an argument. Why do you think hitting another human being is ever acceptable? It is acceptable if it prevents some bad outcome in your view? How can you be against the State-doing likewise in it's paternal role in society? How can you be against one, and for the other? You're simply inconsistent. Either it is wrong, or not wrong. It can't be both.

I've lived 26 years and experienced much. You don't know what I have or haven't experienced, learned, and adopted. You did impugn his character by saying he must be some crazy lib-loon. We all know why you'd say such ridiculous things. You never attempted to refute his or our argumentation. You simply keep shouting that hitting your child is ok - even necessary -, and that treating them like a human being with every right as any other human being is wrong or misguided. How would you like it if your child hit you.

 

[tod evans]

Okay bud, spanking and hitting are completely different things........got it?

I'm not going to even entertain the idea of the state and a parent sharing responsibility for a childs welfare that's foolish double speak.

I'm glad you've made it 26 years and I sincerely hope you make it another 26, hopefully you'll experience the wonders of a child and you can use all the tools in your arsenal to shape their life as you see fit.

I'll advocate for your right to raise your child as you choose, if you try to infringe on my right to do the same we'll have issues.

If you or he choose to attend some uber liberal or conservative university by all means do so, but be forewarned the "non-spanking" doctrine will most likely only be taught at the uber-liberal university.

Freedom is a difficult concept for some folks to grab, I'll fight all day for you to have the freedom to raise your child as you see fit...

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Okay bud, spanking and hitting are completely different things........got it?

I'm not going to even entertain the idea of the state and a parent sharing responsibility for a childs welfare that's foolish double speak.

I'm glad you've made it 26 years and I sincerely hope you make it another 26, hopefully you'll experience the wonders of a child and you can use all the tools in your arsenal to shape their life as you see fit.

I'll advocate for your right to raise your child as you choose, if you try to infringe on my right to do the same we'll have issues.

If you or he choose to attend some uber liberal or conservative university by all means do so, but be forewarned the "non-spanking" doctrine will most likely only be taught at the uber-liberal university.

Freedom is a difficult concept for some folks to grab, I'll fight all day for you to have the freedom to raise your child as you see fit...

No one has the right to raise a children by violating their persons. You have all the rights to raise your child so long as you do not likewise violate their liberties and rights. This is not a hard concept to comprehend. Just because you're a parent doesn't mean you have a tabula rasa to shape and create in whatever way you like or feel is appropriate. The child should absolutely have some legal recourse if they choose to use it - I simply reject your argument that you have the right to assault or hit/spank/battery your child.

I fight for everyone's liberties, period. Whether you are 75, 35, or 15, I don't care - we're all human beings. Your rights suddenly don't magically appear at a pre-determined age bracket. That's non-sense, nor does giving birth entitle you to treat that person in whatever manner you desire.

You think it's wrong for the State to prevent or punish folks for making bad decisions, but you think it's ok for you to do so. I simply think it is wrong for any individual to do so. If you have a right to do something, then you can't say the State can't do it either. It's called individual rights as the basis of all rights. If one individual has the right to do it, then all individuals do - and thus, all groups, since all groups must necessarily be made of individuals.

In any event, do I think you are an abuser? No. You're probably a very good parent. I just don't accept your claim that hitting your child is necessary, or morally right to do.

 

[libertygrl]

Aren't people missing the point that it's not the state's business how you discipline your own children????

Background on the governor:

Personal details
Born Jack A. Markell
November 26, 1960 (age 51)
Newark, Delaware
Political party Democratic
Spouse(s) Carla Markell
Residence Governor's Mansion
Alma mater Brown University (B.A.)
University of Chicago (M.B.A.)
Profession Businessman
Religion Judaism

Markell grew up in Newark, Delaware, and graduated from Newark High School. As a child, he attended Camp Galil, a summer camp in the Labor Zionist youth movement, Habonim Dror.**[1] He graduated from Brown University earning his Bachelor of Arts in economics and development studies, and went on to the University of Chicago, earning his MBA.

h ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Markell


**Habonim Dror

Today, HDNA is an autonomous Progressive Labor Zionist youth movement whose members strive for the concrete expression of its ideals in their own lives and in society. Habonim Dror has the following aims:

To up-build the State of Israel as a progressive, egalitarian, cooperative society, at peace with its neighbors; actively involved in a Peace Process with the Palestinian people with the common goal of a just and lasting peace; and as the physical and spiritual center of the Jewish people. To this end, Habonim Dror calls first and foremost for Aliya to communal and collective frameworks that actively work to achieve the aforementioned goal. In addition, Habonim Dror also calls for active involvement in progressive Zionist and Jewish issues in Diaspora communities.

To strengthen the relationship between North American Jewish youth and Judaism through their involvement in progressive Jewish communities with the purposes of enlisting their participation in the up-building of a renewed Jewish culture. This will be accomplished by the development of individual Jewish identities by means of promoting the exploration of Jewish spirituality, the full expression of the Hebrew language, an understanding of Jewish history and a personal relationship with Israel.

To participate in the creation of a new social order throughout the world, based on the principles of self-determination, individual freedom, political democracy, and cooperative economics, the equality of all peopleand the equality of human value (shivyon d’erech h’adam).

To participate in constructive activities in the North American Jewish community while advocating change where necessary to foster Jewish continuity and creativity and the democratization of the community.

To develop within its members the will to realize their own capabilities and to develop a collectivist attitude to actualize the movement’s goals through cooperative frameworks (kvutzah).

The pillars, the educational concepts that guide us, of Habonim Dror North America are:

Cultural Judaism
Progressive Labor Zionism
Hagshama (Actualization of Movement Values)
Social Justice
Socialism

h ttps://www.habonimdror.org/about-us/aims

 

[opal]

Parenting is kind of a personal thing. No one knows your child like you do and each child has his/her own quirks.

I used to work in retail - we had a woman with a small boy - still in a diaper, but walking, shopping one day. The little guy, curious as any little kid would be, found the sparkly things on our earring tree - which was just the right height for him to dismantle... at least the bottom part of it was.
His mom told him no.. up close and personal - not mean but he got the message - and watched her until she looked away - and his little hand went right back to knocking things off the display.
She reached down and gave him a swat on the diaper and OMG.. I thought two little old ladies would come unglued.. their faces puckered and they started to confront this mother about child abuse.

This woman, listened respectfully then said, matter of factly., listen ladies, if you want him breaking into your houses in 10 years, I won't disipline him... would that make you happy?

One of the best retorts I've ever heard.

 

[tod evans]

No one has the right to raise a children by violating their persons. You have all the rights to raise your child so long as you do not likewise violate their liberties and rights. This is not a hard concept to comprehend. Just because you're a parent doesn't mean you have a tabula rasa to shape and create in whatever way you like or feel is appropriate. The child should absolutely have some legal recourse if they choose to use it - I simply reject your argument that you have the right to assault or hit/spank/battery your child.

I fight for everyone's liberties, period. Whether you are 75, 35, or 15, I don't care - we're all human beings. Your rights suddenly don't magically appear at a pre-determined age bracket. That's non-sense, nor does giving birth entitle you to treat that person in whatever manner you desire.

You think it's wrong for the State to prevent or punish folks for making bad decisions, but you think it's ok for you to do so. I simply think it is wrong for any individual to do so. If you have a right to do something, then you can't say the State can't do it either. It's called individual rights as the basis of all rights. If one individual has the right to do it, then all individuals do - and thus, all groups, since all groups must necessarily be made of individuals.

In any event, do I think you are an abuser? No. You're probably a very good parent. I just don't accept your claim that hitting your child is necessary, or morally right to do.

About the time you set foot on my property (or have a government agent do it in your stead) we will have issues that cannot be settled with words or money.

Children are the legal responsibility of their parents, they are not free and sovereign individuals as you profess, if you'd like to change that you'll be combating centuries of legislation spanning many countries.

Your arbitrary definition of violating a child is completely detached from standing law in most states (this is a thread about Delaware), I don't live there and probably never will.

Telling me what "I think" probably isn't your best approach... Some people do need to be held accountable for their actions and currently "the state" is the only mechanism to deal with them.

 

[Origanalist]

Parenting is kind of a personal thing. No one knows your child like you do and each child has his/her own quirks.

I used to work in retail - we had a woman with a small boy - still in a diaper, but walking, shopping one day. The little guy, curious as any little kid would be, found the sparkly things on our earring tree - which was just the right height for him to dismantle... at least the bottom part of it was.
His mom told him no.. up close and personal - not mean but he got the message - and watched her until she looked away - and his little hand went right back to knocking things off the display.
She reached down and gave him a swat on the diaper and OMG.. I thought two little old ladies would come unglued.. their faces puckered and they started to confront this mother about child abuse.

This woman, listened respectfully then said, matter of factly., listen ladies, if you want him breaking into your houses in 10 years, I won't disipline him... would that make you happy?

One of the best retorts I've ever heard.

Yep, and these same ones who get such a case of the faints when a child gets a whack on the bottom are the same ones who say * my little Johnny would never do that * when little Johnny steals the neighbors tires and sells them.

 

[asurfaholic]

Hi. I am the father of a 13 mo old girl. She bit me a little while back, so i popped her a good one on the rear and said "no!" She hasn bit me since, and is the happiest little girl in the world.

If you disagree with that, bite me.

 

[Hospitaller]

In the same way our economy turns out fine with state management for thousands of years, humans turn out "fine" with spanking for thousands of years. Its the unseen losses that are important. Please research Freedomainradio and Stefan Molyneaux extensive research on the subject.

 

[TheTexan]

To Feeding the Abscess. I believe the Non-Aggression Principal SHOULD be law.

Laws don't mean shit by themselves they are just words on paper

 

[familydog]

Spanking is child abuse. I have no sympathy for people who abuse their children. Yet the state won't solve child abuse by banning it.

 

[TheTexan]

No one has the right to raise a children by violating their persons. You have all the rights to raise your child so long as you do not likewise violate their liberties and rights. This is not a hard concept to comprehend. Just because you're a parent doesn't mean you have a tabula rasa to shape and create in whatever way you like or feel is appropriate. The child should absolutely have some legal recourse if they choose to use it - I simply reject your argument that you have the right to assault or hit/spank/battery your child.

At the same time, it's not practical to enforce these rights. If the children appeal for outside help, then yes, but otherwise, its none of our business. We can't go around having home inspections and mandatory quarterly children's rights interviews.

So yes.. the child should have legal recourse against it... but any laws on this matter would do more harm than good. Can't legislate morality

 

[DamianTV]

Welcome to Democracy where Mob Rule tells you how to raise your own child.

Whats next? Imprisoning the Parents and making the child a ward of the state if the parent doesnt get a Government License to have a child?

 

[Tod]

In a way, spanking of a child by a reasonable caring parent IS consensual, because, done properly the child understands that if he/she insist on doing whatever they are doing, they will be spanked. So, the child decides to push the limits and see how unreasonably they can behave. When they are spanked, they have traded poor behavior for a spanking and upon being spanked, if the spanking is done properly, with just enough force that the child wouldn't want to repeat the process, at least until the child again gets too big for their britches and thinks once more that they can deal with a spanking.

I can really only recall being spanked one time by my dad. I was misbehaving and was sent to my room where I proceeded to throw a tantrum, laying on my back with my butt near the wall, slamming my feet against the wall, risking breaking the plaster that my mom had recently wallpapered. My dad told me that if I didn't stop immediately, I would get a spanking. I defied him. I was not open to reason. I got spanked, and then behaved, sulking in silence, the lesson about not behaving in that way learned at a time when mere talking was a waste of breath and would have done nothing but teach me that my parents were spineless wimps who could be pushed around.

Certainly, often an issue can be resolved by mere talking. But sometimes, mere talking is viewed as weakness and does not command respect of a self-centered irrational child.