Define "Natural Born Citizen"

Zera

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All my life, I have known natural born citizen to mean that you were born on U.S. soil. But now, it doesn't? I don't understand how one parent being born in the U.K. makes one a British subject, even if his mother was an American and he was born in America. Even our 21st president, Chester A. Arthur, had a father born in Ireland. Hell, there were even rumors that he himself was born in Canada, but they were apparently never sure.

I don't see how what I've known to be the definition of a natural born citizen all my life is suddenly different since Obama won.
 
I thought his Grandma and the Ambassador to Kenya both said he was born in Kenya :confused:

Everybody else seems to be basing their opinion off a certificate of birth from Hawaii, which doesn't even necessitate that he was born in the state of Hawaii.
 
I thought his Grandma and the Ambassador to Kenya both said he was born in Kenya :confused:

I also heard that he wasn't a citizen because he was also apparently an Indonesian citizen. I dunno, the story changes every week. I guess some people REALLY prefer the failure of McCain over the failure of Obama, which seems funny since apparently O = W, so the failure would really be the same.
 
In order to be a natural born citizen, you must:

a) born in the United States to at least one person who is here on a permanent basis (or illegally, I mean work releases, educational visas, etc. don't count)

or b) born to two United States citizens abroad (or single mother)

a) or b) and c) never relinquish it, and by law if you obtain citizenship of another country after you obtain US citizenship, you are no longer a citizen.
 
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In order to be a natural born citizen, you must:

a) born in the United States to at least one person who is here on a permanent basis (or illegally, I mean work releases, educational visas, etc. don't count)

and b) never relinquish it, and by law if you obtain citizenship of another country after you obtain US citizenship, you are no longer a citizen.

I've never looked into b), but I've also never heard of that.
 
I also heard that he wasn't a citizen because he was also apparently an Indonesian citizen. I dunno, the story changes every week.

No, that's the second part of Berg's lawsuit. His lawsuit claims that Obama can't be President on two different grounds. Both must be proven false for Obama to be President. It's like splitting your hand of double aces in Blackjack.


I guess some people REALLY prefer the failure of McCain over the failure of Obama, which seems funny since apparently O = W, so the failure would really be the same.

Hmm, I've always sort of half-preferred the failure of Obama over McCain, but that hasn't really been an issue here. The issue is are we going to take the constitution seriously or not? Are we going to let them pull another one over on us or are we going to show the sheep that the systems of control are corrupt?

Personally, I've been following this since before the election. I wanted Obama to come out and clear everything up before the election. I feel like TPTB can now remove Obama at any time and put in someone who wasn't elected. Getting this story out is all apart of waking people up. Let me explain.. Democrats say that if Obama isn't a citizen, then the Republicans would have come after him during the election, so anybody who believes this must be a nutcase. Once they realize that the Republican elites were apart of the plot to get Obama elected, then we have a larger group of people who realize that Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin, two management teams bidding for CEO of Slavery Inc.
 
If you are born in US soil then, via the 14th amendment, you are natural born.
If you are born according to laws you might also be natural born.
Right now I only know that if you have at least 1 parent, though they don't have to be natural born, you are also natural.
 
All my life, I have known natural born citizen to mean that you were born on U.S. soil. But now, it doesn't? I don't understand how one parent being born in the U.K. makes one a British subject, even if his mother was an American and he was born in America. Even our 21st president, Chester A. Arthur, had a father born in Ireland. Hell, there were even rumors that he himself was born in Canada, but they were apparently never sure.

I don't see how what I've known to be the definition of a natural born citizen all my life is suddenly different since Obama won.

Well, if you do a litle research into US history, you'll find that "citizen" and "natural born citizen" are 2 separate things, and it's been this way since 1789. If you bone up on British law, you'll find that their equivalent of citizenship is referred to as a "subject", because it's a monarchy. Any offspring of british subjects citizenship derives from the father according to british law at the time. So, at birth, his mother's citizenship was irrelevant, especially in this case as because the way US law read at the time was a parent had to be over 14, and lived in the US for 5 yrs after that point, which his mother was to young to do, so that also would have prevented him being a natural born citizen if his father being british hadn't. Of course, all of that is immaterial as when he enrolled in school in India, the act of enrolling in that school made him a Indian citizen. There's never been any record of him having relinquishing his Indian citizenship,(he claims it expired all by itself) or making any effort to become a US citizen. In the 80's, he went to Pakistan, off limits to anyone with a US passport at the time.
There are still 2 cases in front of the supremes on this issue, and they've already heard most of the arguments in one of them, and still scheduled a conference.
So there you have about 5 reasons that would prevent Obama from becoming president, before the supreme court acts, and it will, soon.
 
Some help

To be a citizen by where you are born is from the serf days, the idea that you owed alliegence to the king and was his property. To be a freeman, you inheritied it. The former is Jus Soli, the later is Jus Sanguinis or by the blood or parentage and is older and goes back to the days of the Roman Republic. Citizenship by inheritance is natural, and does not need a government to operate to tell you its right.

English law had *BOTH* forms of citizenship at birth. One more applicable to serfs, the others used for the king, ambassaders, nobility and peers, etc. By the time of founding of this country, in common law the long established definition of natural born was to be born in the country or by a father if there was a conflict of citizenship, such as the child was born oversees.

The concept is actually important to understand who we are, and that the people are suppose to be sovereign, and government officals are suppose to be public servants.

The following may explain this better. The linked law article review also goes over some of the points nicely - only briefly quoted below:


By inheritance is how clans, tribes, and people *naturally* form. Boundaries are artifically contrived artifacts created by governments. If citizenship was determined under natural law by boundaries, the governmnet would be creating the people. But the people created the government, and existed before it.


I found an article on Michigan Law Review that in the middle of it reviews everything I have been saying on this forum that I think might be useful to look at. It asks every question except one, which I'll follow up on after qouting it. The principles behind Obama's elibility are much deeper than who should be president, they involve who is a citizen, if the citizens are free or are they subjects, and if the citizens create the government or the government determines the citizenry.

But even so, letters and lawsuits following this line of reasoning are a lot shorter than allegations about Obama's place of birth, because the burden of proof is no longer yours, but Obama's - at the end of this post I give an example of just how short it is. The post is long because I want to show that some of the principles behind all this are important.

http://www.michiganlawreview.org/firstimpressions/vol107/solum.htm

First, on citizens and subjects the review says:
"The language of the Constitution recognizes a distinction between “citizens” and “subjects.” For example, Article III, section 2 differentiates “citizens” of the several states from “citizens” or “subjects” of foreign states. In the framing era, these terms reflected two distinct theories of the relationship between individual members of a political community and the state. In feudal or monarchical constitutional theory, individuals were the subjects of a monarch or sovereign, but the republican constitutional theory of the revolutionary and post-revolutionary period conceived of the individual as a citizen and assigned sovereignty to the people."

Second, the review article notes 'the first great constitutinal case decided after the ratification of the Constition,' i.e. Chisholm v. Georgia, with the opinions of Chief Justice John Jay that (quoted a little more fuller than the michagan law review) “At the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people; and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are sovereigns without subjects...with none to govern but themselves; the citizens of America are equal as fellow citizens, and as joint tenants in the sovereignty” followed by Justice James Wilson opinions on the difference between citizen and subjects.

There is a wide difference between the concept of sovereign citizenry as expressed by this supreme court case and subjects, and the issue relates to citizenship being determined by Jus Solis - or where you are born,or Jus Sanguinis, or parentage.

This last quote from the above review article may make the point clearer: "Those leaned in English law, however, understood another aspect of the concept of “natural born subject.” Children of the sovereign were natural born subjects wherever their birth occurred. The issue of the king owed a natural obligation to their father; [...] But in republican theory the people are sovereign, suggesting that the republican conception of natural born citizens would naturally treat the children of citizen-sovereigns as equivalent to the children of a monarchical sovereign or king."

Jus Solis is derived directly from the english concept of subjecthood, and serfs, that you owe your alligence to the king because you were on his 'property'. Jus Sanguinis is how the kings passed on their citizenship by parentage as noted above as did freemen, as I noted previosly quoting the first part of the Magna Carta to demonstrate it.

This is how the founders understood these concepts, as seen by the previous quotes from blackstone, the magna carta, jefferson, and the supreme court case noted above. Natural born did not mean what most people are qouting, which is the 14th amendment. Insofar as it cuts right at the heart of the issue of a free society, Not mere citizens, but *sovereign citizens* versus subjecthood, it seems somewhat vital.

We share the same common law heritage with Britain, and for the same legal principles that made Obama a natural born British citizen at birth makes him at the very same time not a natural born citizen here. In which case, I am writing a very short letter decrying this - much shorter than questions on where he was born, because he needs to prove everything himself.

Dear Sirs,
Obama was a British Citizen at Birth. He is not a national born citizen here. Here is the documentation showing he was a British Citizen at birth. Obama has never disputed this, showing that he was an American citizen at birth.

Since he is not eligible to be president under the constitution, please remove him post haste.
 
Well, if you do a litle research into US history, you'll find that "citizen" and "natural born citizen" are 2 separate things, and it's been this way since 1789. If you bone up on British law, you'll find that their equivalent of citizenship is referred to as a "subject", because it's a monarchy. Any offspring of british subjects citizenship derives from the father according to british law at the time. So, at birth, his mother's citizenship was irrelevant, especially in this case as because the way US law read at the time was a parent had to be over 14, and lived in the US for 5 yrs after that point, which his mother was to young to do, so that also would have prevented him being a natural born citizen if his father being british hadn't. Of course, all of that is immaterial as when he enrolled in school in India, the act of enrolling in that school made him a Indian citizen. There's never been any record of him having relinquishing his Indian citizenship,(he claims it expired all by itself) or making any effort to become a US citizen. In the 80's, he went to Pakistan, off limits to anyone with a US passport at the time.
There are still 2 cases in front of the supremes on this issue, and they've already heard most of the arguments in one of them, and still scheduled a conference.
So there you have about 5 reasons that would prevent Obama from becoming president, before the supreme court acts, and it will, soon.

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Like I said, something new every week.
 
This is the preamble to the Magna Carta, one of the great articles of freedom in our legal history and part of our common law heritage. Note that the rights of free men go by parentage to their heirs:

1. In the first place we have granted to God, and by this our present charter confirmed for us and our heirs forever that the English Church shall be free, and shall have her rights entire, and her liberties inviolate; and we will that it be thus observed; which is apparent from this that the freedom of elections, which is reckoned most important and very essential to the English Church, we, of our pure and unconstrained will, did grant, and did by our charter confirm and did obtain the ratification of the same from our lord, Pope Innocent III, before the quarrel arose between us and our barons: and this we will observe, and our will is that it be observed in good faith by our heirs forever. We have also granted to all freemen of our kingdom, for us and our heirs forever, all the underwritten liberties, to be had and held by them and their heirs, of us and our heirs forever.
 
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If you are born in US soil then, via the 14th amendment, you are natural born.
If you are born according to laws you might also be natural born.
Right now I only know that if you have at least 1 parent, though they don't have to be natural born, you are also natural.

the 14th amendment does not make anybody a "natural born" citizen. Natural born was in use WAY before the 14th came along, and the 14th didn't change the meaning of everything preceding it.
 
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Like I said, something new every week.

This is why I wish the courts would take a look at this rather than passing it around the table like a hot potato made of glowing uranium.
 
This are some quotes from Blackstone, one of the more used commentaries at the time of the writing of the Constitution and quoted in the federalist papers several times. This is how the framers understood the word natural born, and intent and that time is the only thing relevant to the discussion:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_4_citizenships1.html

When I say, that an alien is one who is born out of the king's dominions, or allegiance, this also must be understood with some restrictions. The common law indeed stood absolutely so; with only a very few exceptions: so that a particular act of parliament became necessary after the restoration, for the naturalization of children of his majesty's English subjects, born in foreign countries during the late troubles. And this maxim of the law proceeded upon a general principle, that every man owes natural allegiance where he is born, and cannot owe two such allegiances, or serve two masters, at once. Yet the children of the king's embassadors born abroad were always held to be natural subjects: for as the father, though in a foreign country, owes not even a local allegiance to the prince to whom he is sent; so, with regard to the son also, he was held (by a kind of postliminium) to be born under the king of England's allegiance, represented by his father, the embassador. To encourage also foreign commerce, it was enacted by statute 25 Edw. III. st. 2. that all children born abroad, provided both their parents were at the time of the birth in allegiance to the king, and the mother had passed the seas by her husband's consent, might inherit as if born in England: and accordingly it hath been so adjudged in behalf of merchants. But by several more modern statutes these restrictions are still farther taken off: so that all children, born out of the king's ligeance, whose fathers were natural-born subjects, are now natural-born subjects themselves, to all intents and purposes, without any exception; unless their said fathers were attainted, or banished beyond sea, for high treason; or were then in the service of a prince at enmity with Great Britain.

And several more like it. The statues being talked about go back to the 1300-1500s, and were well part of the legal framework before the founding of this country.

That is what the founders understood natural born to mean. To be born inside the country and of parents who are citizens. It was a mixture of the two concepts of citizenships. How the king passed on his citizenship to his children, no matter where they were born, is also more of the same concept, and most applicable to a nation whose citizens are sovereigns.
 
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Like I said, something new every week.

The Berg case has been going on since midsummer, the Donofrio/Wrotonoski cases for over a month, and we haven't even talked about Keyes yet. While there are new events in the cases, sometimes daily, to contend that this is all new is a little far fetched.
 
natural born vs 14th amendment citizen

This is why I wish the courts would take a look at this rather than passing it around the table like a hot potato made of glowing uranium.

This entire situation is really a can of worms for the court. To determine whether or not Obama is qualified to be president the court will have to state what is and what is not a natural born "C"itizen. If you check out Ex Parte Frank Knowles 5 cal 300 you will find that prior to the 14 th amendment there was technicially no such thing as a United States Citizen. In actuallity the People refered to in the preamble to the consitution where state "C"itizens and they where the soverigns of the country Chilsom vs Georgia a good place for more information on this is www.state-citizen.org or http://www.supremelaw.org/

If you look at this long enough you will come to the conclusion that there are two classes of citizenship in the u.S. of A. or in more simple terms the people and the slaves that where allegeldy freed after the civil war. they where most black or negro ( look up the definition of negro in Blacks law dictionary it means slave) andway the freed slaves are subjects under the 14th that cannot dispute the validity of the public debt Art 14 clause 4 go ahead and look it in the constitution the 14th amendment.


SO why is this a can of worms for the court. they will have to explain all this and the governments entire house of cards comes tumbling down.

The people , state "C"itizens, freeman, sovereign "C"itizens are all the same thing and a united states citizen is a subject, slave, second class citizen that can't be president.

Also the former dont have to pay income tax, See " The Federal Zone" at supremelawfirm.org or have driver's licenses, license plates inspection stickers etc. see www.state-citizen.org Just for fun check out Gordan vs Smith Arkansas supreme Court holding inspection stickers unconstitutional in 1937 maybe 8.


In a nutshell these non compus mentis litigators get it right the USSC will have to explain the difference then Bush wasn't natural born, clinton wasn't, reagan wasn't.

Also if one throughly gets a grip on the difference between a 14th amendment slave and a Natrual Born "C"itizen ( the people ) the looks into the national emergency that got publicity on March 9. 1933. On discovers that the 14th amendment citizen is effectively the enemy of the government (US) on a military reservation ( 4 usc 110(d)&(e)) see also jurisdiction over federal areas within the states. I losely refer to the governemt (us) as created under the constitution when in reality it is a fictious entity that got created as a result of several different reorganizations of the uS of A since the civil war. under bankruptcy

In a nutshell there is no United States ( the republic) as we would like to know it. It was foreclosed on prior to most of us being born. Just no one bothered to tell anyone or teach us after the fact. Many of the other posts in this thread or actually along the same lines as I am trying to convey. I seriously doubt if there has been a pres. since FDR thats was actually natural born the rest have waived that status to become 14th amendment citizens, subject, slaves. Another good place to see the difference between a state "C"itizen i.e. natural born Citizen and a united states "c"itizen is in the various laws prohibiting distribution of communist propaganda such as Louisiana Revised Statues 14:390 & 14:358 et. seq.


Hopefully my capitialization of "C"itizen and "c"itizen has not fallen on deaf ears or blind eyes one is a common noun and the other is a proper noun and it is distinguishable in the original copies of the constitution the two are as differnet as night and day.


Hopefully this helped clear this misconception up a little. I am not much of a typist nor do I have the time to chase down each quote. After 15 years of study I am just trying to point out a placce to start so that one can gain and understanding. I am very surprised that paul andrew mitchell has not addressed this issue or richard mc donald. Probably in the forums on their boards there is a discussion of it I just have not taken the time to look.


hope this helps


Mike
 
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