Debate with parents on legalizing drugs

[low preference guy]

Here is the problem though, they think that alcohol and tobacco SHOULD be illegal.

This is what I would say:

Let's compare what happens when alcohol is illegal and when it is legal.

If alcohol is legal, those who consume suffer the consequences most of the time. If alcohol is illegal, innocent people in the middle of the crossfire between gangs and the police die. That's what happened during Prohibition. Lots of innocent people died due to fight between gangs and the police. Those confrontations will always be around because the gangs need to be violent to survive. Today, when alcohol is legal, sellers of alcohol don't need to arm and protect themselves from the government.

The same is true with drugs. If they're legal, those who suffer are mostly those who use it. If they're illegal, they tend to corrupt the police, pay a salary to buy the police under the table, as it happens in Mexico, and a great number of innocent people suffer and die.

I prefer drugs to be legal because it causes guilty people (those who do drugs) to suffer the greater part of the consequences of their actions, unlike under prohibition, where a great number of innocent people suffer and are killed due to the confrontation between gangs and the police, which not only never ends, but gets more and more brutal as time goes by.

 

[Invi]

I think its easier for kids to get pot than to get alcohol.

It is, by a lot. :-/ I remember trying find 21yr-old+ friends to buy for us.
Well, not me specifically, but you get the idea.
I don't do any kind of drug, caffiene and alcohol aside, but my best friend could call a friend and be smoking a bowl an hour later, when we were 16.


I don't really have anything else to add that hasn't been said.
Prohibition just dominoes into all kinds of illegal activity, all of which could be prevented or minimalized by not putting a ban to begin with.

 

[Roxi]

Wow, thank you guys so much. Your comments are really helpful, but maybe I should be a little more specific with my question and condense it to one sentence.

How does legalizing drugs NOT lead to an increase in drug use and therefore crime?

have her read this article.

It is about how when Portugal legalized drugs, the crime rate went down

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

 

[ronpaulitician]

I don't doubt that, but my parents wouldn't believe it. Is there any proof of this that is readily accessible?

Washington Times: Drugs Inside Prison Walls

Roughly 1,000 “drug incidents” — seizures of marijuana, heroin and other drugs — are reported annually at California prisons. Between 2006 and 2008, 44 inmates in the state died of drug overdoses.

Florida has implemented anti-contraband strategies that its legislative watchdog office says match or exceed those in other states, including drug-detecting dog teams, metal detector searches of staff and visitors at all prisons, and even random pat-down searches of staff, rarely done in other states.

Yet, despite these efforts, 1,132 random drug tests of inmates in 2008-09 were positive — the same positive rate of 1.6 percent as 10 years earlier. Even more striking, officers seized 2,832 grams of marijuana and 92 grams of cocaine at the prisons during the year, by far the highest figures of the past decade.

 

[Dr.3D]

snip~
I agree. Whats your reasoning though? Im looking for as many ways to support this view as possible because I like winning debates with my parents And it could be useful down the road in campaigning for RP, when people are shocked that he would legalize drugs.
~snip

Others have already pointed out my reasoning. Just look at the prohibition of alcohol and what happened there. When something is illegal, the black market takes over. Increased violence is the outcome of such markets and innocent people are killed in the turf and prohibition wars.

 

[NickOdell]

Others have already pointed out my reasoning. Just look at the prohibition of alcohol and what happened there. When something is illegal, the black market takes over. Increased violence is the outcome of such markets and innocent people are killed in the turf and prohibition wars.

Okay, thanks. I was just wondering if you had a different reason, different than what others have pointed out.

 

[NickOdell]

This is what I would say:

Let's compare what happens when alcohol is illegal and when it is legal.

If alcohol is legal, those who consume suffer the consequences most of the time. If alcohol is illegal, innocent people in the middle of the crossfire between gangs and the police die. That's what happened during Prohibition. Lots of innocent people died due to fight between gangs and the police. Those confrontations will always be around because the gangs need to be violent to survive. Today, when alcohol is legal, sellers of alcohol don't need to arm and protect themselves from the government.

The same is true with drugs. If they're legal, those who suffer are mostly those who use it. If they're illegal, they tend to corrupt the police, pay a salary to buy the police under the table, as it happens in Mexico, and a great number of innocent people suffer and die.

I prefer drugs to be legal because it causes guilty people (those who do drugs) to suffer the greater part of the consequences of their actions, unlike under prohibition, where a great number of innocent people suffer and are killed due to the confrontation between gangs and the police, which not only never ends, but gets more and more brutal as time goes by.

Good point. Thanks a lot!!

have her read this article.

It is about how when Portugal legalized drugs, the crime rate went down

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

Washington Times: Drugs Inside Prison Walls

Wow, two very good articles. Thank you both!!!

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

Thats a good point. We don't put people in prison because we don't agree with what they are doing, we should only put them in prison for harming others. What they do to their own bodies is their choice.

Yup, you got it.

Okay, but wouldn't the lower price of drugs give more people access to them? And allow more people to get hooked? I agree that it would take out the profits of drug dealers, but my mom is convinced that if you lower the price then EVERYONE is going to go out and buy drugs because they are so cheap and easy to get.

You might jokingly ask your mom if she would go out and start using drugs if the price were a lot lower and they were legal. Of course she'll say she wouldn't. Then you can point out that just about everyone who wants to use illegal drugs is already using them. As someone pointed out earlier, it's even possible to get illegal drugs in prisons. There's just no way to stop most people from using them. Sure, people get busted here and there, but it doesn't even put a dent in the problem overall. It only creates more problems than it solves.

You can also make a point about illegal drugs by discussing the current abuse of perfectly legal substances. Anyone can sniff glue or paint thinner any time he wants to and get a cheap, legal high. And inhalant abuse can actually be very addictive! Even so, how many people actually abuse these ubiquitous substances? Relatively few. That's because most people know how harmful and dangerous the practice is. The same would likely be true if drugs like heroin were legal. Most people are afraid of drugs like that because they fear addiction and health consequences. Again, those who really want to use drugs like that are already doing so, legal or not. The best way to stop the abuse is to educate people about the harm that can occur from some of these drugs and offer medical treatment to those who are already addicted.

One other point. When drugs are illegal (and thus expensive and profitable to sell), there's a greater incentive for drug dealers to try to get people hooked -- especially young people. Note that it's almost unheard of for people to stand on inner city street corners, trying to push alcohol on kids and turn them into alcoholics. That's because there'd be no profit in it.

 

[South Park Fan]

Ask your parents if they think they have better judgement than God. If not, then why do they presume that God made a mistake when He made coca, opium, and cannabis?

 

[Tim1119]

Ask your mom who she thinks owns her body.

 

[NickOdell]

Ask your parents if they think they have better judgement than God. If not, then why do they presume that God made a mistake when He made coca, opium, and cannabis?

They don't think they do. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Christian philosophy but Christians don't believe God put those 'evils' per say in the world because he thought they would be good for us, but because of the sin brought into the world my Adam and Eve sinning. So that argument wouldn't really work-- they believe those drugs are a result of sin in the world, not God's judgement or intentions.

 

[NickOdell]

snip ~
You can also make a point about illegal drugs by discussing the current abuse of perfectly legal substances. Anyone can sniff glue or paint thinner any time he wants to and get a cheap, legal high. And inhalant abuse can actually be very addictive! Even so, how many people actually abuse these ubiquitous substances? Relatively few. That's because most people know how harmful and dangerous the practice is. The same would likely be true if drugs like heroin were legal. Most people are afraid of drugs like that because they fear addiction and health consequences. Again, those who really want to use drugs like that are already doing so, legal or not. The best way to stop the abuse is to educate people about the harm that can occur from some of these drugs and offer medical treatment to those who are already addicted.
~snip

Thats a good point. The drug market is already pretty saturated, if you will, so legalizing them would really only end the imprisonment of people who commit non-violent 'crimes'.

And we all know that the violence would actually go down.

 

[NewRightLibertarian]

Make sure you let your parents know that legalized drugs would mean they'd be sold in shops with state regulations like alcohol and therefore they'd be less available to kids than the illegal drugs. Also, mention how the legalized drugs (tobacco, alcohol, prescription) are much worse than the illegal drugs and the feds have an ulterior motive keepin em illegal besides public safety. Bring up how corporate banks launder drug money and the CIA has been known to deal illegal drugs.

This is an easy debate for you, the legalizers have all the facts on their side!

 

[NickOdell]

Ask your mom who she thinks owns her body.

Her point isn't that she wants the government telling us what we want in our bodies, but that she thinks she is better protected from the crimes she thinks are encouraged from drug addiction, which she thinks would increase with their legalization.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Exactly, thank you. Thats a good example I didnt think of.



I think that is a problem with my parents, they aren't really thinking about my side of the argument. They are convinced they are right because it sounds like supporting drugs, when really it isn't. Thanks for the reply.



Right, I completely agree that we can't go around imposing our beliefs on others. Its not a free society if we do.

I agree, it should be the job of churches and other VOLUNTARY organizations to help people with drug problems, not the government stealing money from people without these problems to fund sending people with drug problems to jail.



Thats a good point. We don't put people in prison because we don't agree with what they are doing, we should only put them in prison for harming others. What they do to their own bodies is their choice.

Okay, but wouldn't the lower price of drugs give more people access to them? And allow more people to get hooked? I agree that it would take out the profits of drug dealers, but my mom is convinced that if you lower the price then EVERYONE is going to go out and buy drugs because they are so cheap and easy to get.



Thats too bad your computer shut down on you, I would have enjoyed reading it

Thanks, I will definitely look into that book. It sounds really interesting!

Here is the problem though, they think that alcohol and tobacco SHOULD be illegal. They believe that since it is a biblical principal not to do drugs that is is OK for the gov to enforce these laws. I think this is an issue that RP will face when trying to get votes from a lot of social conservatives like my parents.

I completely agree with the part I made bold in your quote, it does give drug dealers a profit incentive. Drugs dealers thriving in the black market it kinda like capitalism... when there is a profit incentive, people will try and sell it to ya!



Exactly, people who do drugs aren't going to get jobs, which are required to buy drugs if we stop gov hand out programs, so the problem would fix itself simply by ending social safety nets. Or at least tightening restrictions on what they provide.

Right, and what is to stop the gov from regulating or prohibiting video games if we continue to allow them to tell us what we can and cannot do in every other area of our lives... makes me angry!



She thinks that even though she wouldnt, along with other social conservatives wouldnt, people would be using drugs more because it would be easier to get them.



Exactly her concern.



Wow, you made some really good points. Thanks, I'm going to use some of them next time



Who was murdered and more importantly who has been doing the murdering? Drug addicts? Drug dealers? And could you articulate how legalization would have prevented it? Thanks Just looking for more information. This is all so interesting to me!



I disagreed with you until your last point. People don't steal for alcohol or tobacco habits. Wow. Thats a really good point. But arent cocaine and heroine more strong drugs, so they couldnt really "do better drugs" because tobacco isnt as strong as these other ones. Even with drug dealers out of the picture, because there would be no profit in selling these inexpensive drugs, wouldnt lower prices make the drugs available to more people, even if they didnt have to steal to acquire them?



I agree. Whats your reasoning though? Im looking for as many ways to support this view as possible because I like winning debates with my parents And it could be useful down the road in campaigning for RP, when people are shocked that he would legalize drugs.



They are against the gov takeover of health care, but they are convinced that things like the FDA are necessary. Maybe mismanaged, but necessary. Could you explain how the war on drugs was the beginning of that takeover?



I don't doubt that, but my parents wouldn't believe it. Is there any proof of this that is readily accessible?



Thanks, I didnt think of the turf or gang wars argument. Thats a good one. So they would be eliminated because there would be little to no profit incentive in controlling the drug supply in an area, right?



Good point. I understood nearly all of that. Two questions though.
1. Could you give me a little history on what Al Capones and Baby Faces are? I know it has to do with Alcohol Prohibition but im not really sure who/what they are. Im only 15 Maybe a little history on Alcohol Prohibition too? That would be fantastic
2. What would you consider legal remedy? Im not following you there. I see how people who use drugs arent likely to be employed, and in absense of gov hand out programs would have no money for drugs, therefore requiring them to quite drugs. Is that what you are talking about?


Again, thanks everyone for your replies. This is making a ton of sense to me!

Most of the crime coming from the illegal drug industry comes not from users, but from producers and sellers. They fight over 'turf', addicts, and other budding entreprenuers. Why do these groups not seek legal recourse for the illegal crimes (actual crimes -- e.g. against another person or their property)? It is plainly obvious -- they are conducting in an illegal (per the Government) market, so therefore both sides are deterred from seeking any sort of recognized conflict resolution. Why would they care about property damage, or murder, when their entire industry is all ready illegal? How come Annheiser-Busch doesn't go and kill Milwaukee's Best? In what legal market activity is their rampant, or even any, widespread or otherwise murder and property thievery/damage to their competitors businesses? None I can think of.

 

[NickOdell]

Make sure you let your parents know that legalized drugs would mean they'd be sold in shops with state regulations like alcohol and therefore they'd be less available to kids than the illegal drugs. Also, mention how the legalized drugs (tobacco, alcohol, prescription) are much worse than the illegal drugs and the feds have an ulterior motive keepin em illegal besides public safety. Bring up how corporate banks launder drug money and the CIA has been known to deal illegal drugs.

This is an easy debate for you, the legalizers have all the facts on their side!

Thats a good point. I mentioned how prescription drugs aren't much different than the illegal ones and are often worse, just repackaged with a different name essentially.

Agreed, next time the topic comes up, I will have way more information than last time I'm really glad I posted this thread. It has helped me articulate my view tremendously.

 

[NickOdell]

snip~
In what legal market activity is their rampant, or even any, widespread or otherwise murder and property thievery/damage to their competitors businesses? None I can think of.
~snip

That is a very good point! Making their 'crime' illegal gives them precedence to act in other rightly illegal manners such as murder or property damage. If you allow them to legally sell drugs then they won't feel the need to arm themselves with guns to protect themselves from police officers, which reduces violence.

I'm shocked at how common sense so many issues are, yet people manage to adopt a completely illogical viewpoint.

 

[steph3n]

Agreed, next time the topic comes up, I will have way more information than last time I'm really glad I posted this thread. It has helped me articulate my view tremendously.

and remember there is nothing anti-Christian about 'drug legalization' it just changes the hands from a 'justice' matter to treatment, help, aid, community matter

In fact it opens many more opportunities to help than ever before, locking people up doesn't help them grow productive, it makes them bitter and hardened.

 

[NickOdell]

In fact it opens many more opportunities to help than ever before, locking people up doesn't help them grow productive, it makes them bitter and hardened.

That's a good point. Locking them up doesn't show the compassion and help Christians should show drug users. It tells them they are criminals. Especially to be locked up with murderers and rapists... Not good.

 

[Kojack]

Nicotine and alcohol are very addictive substances. It shouldn't take much research to find some citations showing this. Ask your parents whether making them illegal would be more likely to increase or decrease the crime rate. Do people commit crimes to get their hands on liquor and tobacco? Maybe a few but there's few crimes attributable to addicts needing funds for cigarettes and beer.

Whether more people would use currently illegal drugs if they were all legalized is a separate question, and there probably would be an increase in their use as their illegality probably serves as a small disincentive. As others have pointed out though it doesn't take much effort to get them now and their being forbidden also gets people curious about them, so there is reason to think the increase would be moderate.

Prohibition creates crime, increases the number of felons handicapping them in any efforts they might make to be productive citizens after their release, expands the penitentiary system, drives up the price of narcotics making it a greater economic burden in the lives of addicts, romanticizes drug use, and perhaps most importantly provides a tremendous source of funding for some of the worst people in the world: Shining Path, FARC, Taliban, various Mexican cartels, etc. Where would these groups hove gotten as much money as easily as they did if there was no black market where they could sell cocaine and heroin? If the recreational drug market had been open to legitimate companies, wouldn't these criminal and terrorist organizations have been far smaller, and in some cases like the Mexican cartels perhaps not existed at all?