Cut to the chase - secession

[osan]

What lesson do you see?

I think the big mistake made by the South was firing on Fort Sumter.

Agreed.

With patience and forebearance, and progress towards an end to slavery...

Slavery was a doomed institution at that time. The owners may have had another 10 years or so where the maintenance of slaves would have remained economically viable. At some point they would have dumped their slaves in favor of automated means.

 

[klamath]

Secession worked so well last time. Seceding is that sure act of war as PROVEN by history.
Anybody that knowingly does an act that brings a a violent war around my family will be no friend of mine.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Fair enough. But I am at work. Still doesn't take away from the merits of my opinion.

And I could find five or six old posts with it spelled correctly.

But touche. I will concede that I mispelled it. And I won't even edit it so that you can bask in your victory.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

No victory, I was pulling your leg.

You were agreeing with too many of my posts.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Secession worked so well last time. Seceded is that sure act of war as PROVEN by history.
Anybody that knowingly does an act that brings a a violent war around my family will be no friend of mine.

So, "we" walk away from a violent, oppressive abuser.

The abuser follows and initiates more violence.

And it's "our" fault?

 

[Minuteman2012]

Wouldn't the Federal Government just embargo states that seceded? This seems like enough of a disincentive to stop such a thing from happening.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Wouldn't the Federal Government just embargo states that seceded? This seems like enough of a disincentive to stop such a thing from happening.

I'm sure they would.

We'd be stuck getting our porn, lawyers and weapons systems somewhere else.

Oh, the horror.

 

[Jace]

Well, I would rather we make every effort to get someone like Ron Paul elected president and get other liberty candidates into government before hoping for secession. I hope we can still make the whole thing work. The US is a great place to live, and I've lived in two foreign countries and visited dozens of others for extended periods. I am often frustrated and dismayed with the direction we are going in, but I know I am fortunate to live here. I have a lot of love for this land, from California to Washington state to New York City to the Deep South and all places in between.

I have family in several states across the country. Georgia, Colorado, Virginia, Florida. I have close personal friends in dozens of other states. I would prefer them to remain countrymen. Some of them are even flaming liberal Obama worshippers, but they are still friends and family.

I love the history, culture, traditions and lifestyle of this place.

Now, if Arizona, Texas or Alaska actually did secede I would feel sad but I might consider emigrating there. But if the psychos running California ever declare independence, I will be running for the border.

 

[YumYum]

Wouldn't the Federal Government just embargo states that seceded? This seems like enough of a disincentive to stop such a thing from happening.

They wouldn't let the states that seceded drive on their interstate highways.

 

[Anti Federalist]

But if the psychos running California ever declare independence, I will be running for the border.

That's win/win, as far as I'm concerned.

My ideal scenario would be a break up of Canada as well, with Quebec becoming an independent nation, NH, ME and VT joining with the, now separated from Ottawa, Maritime Provinces and Newfoundland, forming the Alliance of Atlantic States.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Dupe post - NVM

 

[bravebulwark]

I'm sure they would.

We'd be stuck getting our porn, lawyers and weapons systems somewhere else.

Oh, the horror.

Just shot milk out my nose... THX!!!

 

[Philhelm]

So, "we" walk away from a violent, oppressive abuser.

The abuser follows and initiates more violence.

And it's "our" fault?

I usually tell my woman that I only hit her because I love her. No, just kidding...they are usually drugged and incoherent, so I don't bother.

 

[bravebulwark]

They wouldn't let the states that seceded drive on their interstate highways.

Just like a roommate who is leaving the apartment - take what you brought, lose your deposit unless you clean up, and the roommate is on his own

Keep the roads, the national (now state) guard, weapons, bases, etc

Each state would just pay it's "bar tab" for federal property that it is claiming as a State responsibility now.

And the State could even pay them back in FIAT dollars because they are valid for all debts public and private

Hello, silver standard!!!!

 

[Anti Federalist]

I usually tell my woman that I only hit her because I love her. No, just kidding...they are usually drugged and incoherent, so I don't bother.

Braccckkk ROFL

 

[Philhelm]

Braccckkk ROFL

Well, if you think about it, and I'm sure you have, we as a citizenry are like those women that keep going back to the abusive boyfriend/husband (government). After all, the government just wants to protect us...

 

[Anti Federalist]

Well, if you think about it, and I'm sure you have, we as a citizenry are like those women that keep going back to the abusive boyfriend/husband (government). After all, the government just wants to protect us...

Exactly right, which is why I phrased it the way I did.

That is precisely what we, as citizens, are acting like: abused girlfriends or wives.

 

[Mini-Me]

Problem: Around the time of the Civil War, the people of each state tended to have a much stronger loyalty to their individual states than they do today. Most people today do not consider themselves citizens of their states, just citizens of the United States.

Even if we could scrounge up enough numbers to push for secession in state governments, the federal government would respond with military force to "secure" states. The seceding states may or may not be able to get their own National Guard to stick with them in principle, but the biggest problem is that the average American has been taught to worship the US military. This includes National Guard members, and it includes the vast majority of US citizens.

When American troops march down the streets of seceding states to "secure" their position in the state and "keep order," who is actually going to violently resist the same troops they have been indoctrinated to love and worship? Besides the whole indoctrination thing, some of these troops could even be their own friends, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, husbands, and wives, from the very same state. If you think about it realistically, the military is extremely unlikely to just come in "guns blazing," destroying everything in sight and provoking a defensive response. Instead, they will come in under the guise of "peacekeepers" and "law enforcement," and as far as I can tell, the only way for a seceding state to physically repel the invading army would be to fire the first shot.

Who the hell would actually fire that shot? As far as I see it, nobody would, or at least nobody would follow up on it. Nobody wants that kind of horrific bloodshed between countrymen, and I just do not see it happening. Even guerilla warfare by small bands of rebels would not actually work to make secession succeed, because by that time, the military would have replaced the state governments with essentially provincial governments, which have "changed their minds" on the issue of secession. The laws that ordinary people follow would once again be federal laws (specifically martial law, too).

In short, there is really only one way for secession to ever succeed: That is to get the majority of troops on our side too, so that when the time for secession comes, the United States military falls apart internally. This by itself is a tall order, because the United States military does everything it can to turn the troops into nothing more than obedient robots.

 

[Anti Federalist]

In short, there is really only one way for secession to ever succeed: That is to get the majority of troops on our side too, so that when the time for secession comes, the United States military falls apart internally. This by itself is a tall order, because the United States military does everything it can to turn the troops into nothing more than obedient robots.

Loyalties start to fall apart when you don't get paid, and haven't gotten paid, for months.

Just ask any Red Army soldier circa 1989.

 

[tremendoustie]

I endorse secession, although it wouldn't be my ultimate goal.

Local government is far more accountable, and less corrupt.

 

[Mini-Me]

Loyalties start to fall apart when you don't get paid, and haven't gotten paid, for months.

Just ask any Red Army soldier circa 1989.

That's true. Really, the best we can hope for is for the federal government to collapse like the Soviet Union and lose the will to rule by an iron fist. At that point, secession would almost feel redundant from the perspective of the individual states.

Anyway, I think the consensus here is that pushing for increased use of nullification and an increased sense of independence among states (and citizens of states) is the way forward. Nullification is, in a sense, an unofficial piecemeal act of secession. It may or may not attract a military occupation of the states who try it. If it doesn't attract an occupation, then we've made great strides without anyone officially seceding. If it does attract an occupation, an armed resistance simply isn't going to happen, but the act of invasion/occupation would reflect very poorly on the federal government.

The more that nullification is used, the more it will be used: Either the success of nullification or outrage over the heavy-handed response of the feds would likely embolden more states to use it. The more state governments that did, the more hard-pressed the feds would be to commandeer every single one. Over time, I think this very thing is what it would take to erode the morale of the US military, because so many would be wondering things like, "Why the hell are we occupying Texas again?" It would also hasten the financial collapse of the US government, which would struggle more and more to finance all of its occupations, especially in the midst of so many states being uncooperative with tax money, etc. It would be an unwinnable game of whack-a-mole for the feds. In the long run, playing the game like this is likely to result in one of three end-games:

1. The federal government gives up and retreats to a role that the majority of states will be okay with.
2. The federal government collapses entirely, and the states sit around in the aftermath wondering, "I guess this means we're seceding now?"
3. The feds start printing money like crazy to finance their subjugation of the states, followed by hyperinflation, followed by a complete loss of confidence in the feds and then [hopefully] the previous scenario.