Cut to the chase - secession

We shall see

See this is where I disagree. I think we can keep our welfare state ponzy scheme going for maybe another twenty or thirty years before it comes down, which means now is not the time to push this idea of seperating from the Union.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Yup. We disagree. I see the signs of unraveling already. The bond market is going to collapse shortly and then the goose is cooked.
 
I am Slutter McGee and I think this message is idiotic.

Not the idea of sucession. The act of pushing for it right now in a climate that has the one of the dumbest voter blocs in histroy. In a climate where such ideas would gain absolutely no traction among the public.

Change the climate. And then push for such a thing if you desire.

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Your post would have more "gravitas" if you spelled it right. ;)

You don't want to appear to be a "looser".

Secession
 
American secession with more states involved = successful (the very act, not the outcome ultimately ;/)

This is a stupid argument, as if a moment that happened 160 years ago, predicts the outcome of events today.... (Given your logic, it would have been deemed irrefutably successful because the secession that happened 85 years earlier was successful)

:rolleyes: So you are judging "success" by what? Sorry but I'm an outcomes driven person. South Carolina wanted the protectionist tariff overturned and they won. The south wanted to protect slavery and prevent the Morill tariff and they lost. Had the south not seceded they could have beaten the Morill tariff in the senate! Yes that's right. The number of senators the south lost by seceding would have been enough to defeat the Morill tariff in a straight up or down vote. Heck, if the southern senators had just stayed in the senate instead of withdrawing themselves they could have won the vote. So no. My argument isn't "stupid". The south's political calculus was "stupid".
 
:rolleyes: So you are judging "success" by what? Sorry but I'm an outcomes driven person. South Carolina wanted the protectionist tariff overturned and they won. The south wanted to protect slavery and prevent the Morill tariff and they lost. Had the south not seceded they could have beaten the Morill tariff in the senate! Yes that's right. The number of senators the south lost by seceding would have been enough to defeat the Morill tariff in a straight up or down vote. Heck, if the southern senators had just stayed in the senate instead of withdrawing themselves they could have won the vote. So no. My argument isn't "stupid". The south's political calculus was "stupid".

Yes your premise is entirely stupid. I challenged your assertion that because many states seceeded in 1860 it meant that many states seceeding today would be a failure, but you conveniently left out the fact that many states seceeded in 1776 and they WON. Using your logic, it would have been a slam-dunk that the secession in 1861 would have been successful because the one in 1776 was. Ergo, I was trying to show you how stupid this is. I guess it flew over your head.
 
I think that a healthy dose of states rights and education can change the course of the federal government.

I don't support eliminating the federal government, but I do think that it can be shrunk and contained through constitutional amendments and hard work.
 
What lesson do you see?

I think the big mistake made by the South was firing on Fort Sumter. If cooler heads had prevailed in the South the Federal government would not have been able to inflame Northerners so easily. With patience and forebearance, and progress towards an end to slavery, the South might have avoided an armed invasion.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

The lesson I see? If you don't like a particular federal law don't follow it. And I agree with your "patience and forebearance" assessment. I don't think the south would have voluntarily made "progress towards an end of slavery". When they wrote their own constitution they denied the confederate states the right to end slavery within their own borders. So that was going in the opposite direction.

But anyway, forget slavery and just stick with the tariff issue. South Carolina got what it wanted acting through nullification. The rest of the south ultimately did not get what it wanted on the tariff issue by using secession.

Let's look at this through another lens. What unconstitutional federal laws do we want to get rid of? Pick one. Say a state wanted to use nullification with regards to medical marijuana? Say if California declared "As long as the federal government defies our rule on this issue, no state or local law enforcement officer is allowed to cooperate in any way with the DEA." Of course this would mean losing federal money. California would have to be prepared to deal with that consequence. But what could the federal government do?

Here's another nullification idea. State governments are now some of the biggest employers in the country. Say if state governments refused to turn over state income tax withholdings until the federal government met some demand?

I hope you get the idea. Instead of saying "We're an independent country" and daring federal troops to invade say "We're just not going to cooperate with this law". Don't give the feds any inch of a moral high ground.
 
Yes your premise is entirely stupid. I challenged your assertion that because many states seceeded in 1860 it meant that many states seceeding today would be a failure, but you conveniently left out the fact that many states seceeded in 1776 and they WON. Using your logic, it would have been a slam-dunk that the secession in 1861 would have been successful because the one in 1776 was. Ergo, I was trying to show you how stupid this is. I guess it flew over your head.

It wasn't "many" states that seceded in 1776 it was all of them. Nothing "flew over my head". You're argument is just ridiculous. Do you have 100% of the states ready to "secede" from the U.S.? Do you have 3/4s of the states? If you did then rather then "seceding" you could just have a constitutional convention and "fix" whatever it is that you want to secede over. But hey, ignore history and live out your neoconfederate fantasy.

In the nullification crises one state by itself was able to accomplish what eleven states later failed to do. In fact arguably it was the act of secession that paved the way for the very tariff that they hated so much. (Again, had the 7 initial southern states not seceded when they did they could have voted down the Morrill tariff.)
 
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The lesson I see? If you don't like a particular federal law don't follow it. And I agree with your "patience and forebearance" assessment. I don't think the south would have voluntarily made "progress towards an end of slavery". When they wrote their own constitution they denied the confederate states the right to end slavery within their own borders. So that was going in the opposite direction.

But anyway, forget slavery and just stick with the tariff issue. South Carolina got what it wanted acting through nullification. The rest of the south ultimately did not get what it wanted on the tariff issue by using secession.

Let's look at this through another lens. What unconstitutional federal laws do we want to get rid of? Pick one. Say a state wanted to use nullification with regards to medical marijuana? Say if California declared "As long as the federal government defies our rule on this issue, no state or local law enforcement officer is allowed to cooperate in any way with the DEA." Of course this would mean losing federal money. California would have to be prepared to deal with that consequence. But what could the federal government do?

Here's another nullification idea. State governments are now some of the biggest employers in the country. Say if state governments refused to turn over state income tax withholdings until the federal government met some demand?

I hope you get the idea. Instead of saying "We're an independent country" and daring federal troops to invade say "We're just not going to cooperate with this law". Don't give the feds any inch of a moral high ground.

I really agree with this. Instead of egging on the federal government to arrest state officials, infiltrate a resisting state, and kill innocent citizens, there are much better ways to go about this.

A state could easily nullify almost every federal law if they had a good base of liberty elected officials in office. Secession is an absolute last resort.
 
It wasn't "many" states that seceded in 1776 it was all of them. Nothing "flew over my head". You're argument is just ridiculous. Do you have 100% of the states ready to "secede" from the U.S.? Do you have 3/4s of the states? If you did then rather then "seceding" you could just have a constitutional convention and "fix" whatever it is that you want to secede over. But hey, ignore history and live out your neoconfederate fantasy.

How did you get I'm a neo-confederate from the support of secession? Considering I'm an oogedy-boogedy anarchist, how can I be a neo-confederate? :confused:

I suppose you missed that there were 13 colonies that seceeded and there were 11 CSA States. Is 2 more states the magical number for success? Mind you that not every colony/state seceeded against Britain, only the 13 in the America's.
 
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How did you get I'm a neo-confederate from the support of secession? Considering I'm an oogedy-boogedy anarchist, how can I be a neo-confederate? :confused:

I suppose you missed that there were 13 colonies that seceeded and there were 11 CSA States. Is 2 more states the magical number for success? Mind you that not every colony/state seceeded against Britain, only the 13 in the America's.

:rolleyes: Are you saying that you don't understand the difference between raw numbers and percentages?
 
Your post would have more "gravitas" if you spelled it right. ;)

You don't want to appear to be a "looser".

Secession

Fair enough. But I am at work. Still doesn't take away from the merits of my opinion.

And I could find five or six old posts with it spelled correctly.

But touche. I will concede that I mispelled it. And I won't even edit it so that you can bask in your victory. :)

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee
 
response

The lesson I see? If you don't like a particular federal law don't follow it.

I don't like ANY Federal law. The Federal government is all burden and no benefit now. The two things it was supposed to do - manage international relations and interstate commerce - it utterly ruined.


And I agree with your "patience and forebearance" assessment. I don't think the south would have voluntarily made "progress towards an end of slavery". When they wrote their own constitution they denied the confederate states the right to end slavery within their own borders. So that was going in the opposite direction.

Actually I believe it denied the Confederate government the right to ban slavery, not the states, - meaning it left it a State issue just as it should have been under the US Constitution. And many very prominent Southerners - including Robert E. Lee, were opposed to slavery. But they were more strongly in SUPPORT of maintaining the Constitutional balance of power intended by the Founders.

But anyway, forget slavery and just stick with the tariff issue. South Carolina got what it wanted acting through nullification. The rest of the south ultimately did not get what it wanted on the tariff issue by using secession.

Southerners understood very well what the election of Lincon meant. He campaigned on increasing the tariffs and the idea of government raising revenue and using it for internal improvements (translation:graft). It was clear the problem of an overbearing Federal government using tariffs to harm the South for the benefit of Northern interests was NOT going away. Furthermore, Southerners knew that their electoral advantage was doomed as well.

Let's look at this through another lens. What unconstitutional federal laws do we want to get rid of? Pick one. Say a state wanted to use nullification with regards to medical marijuana? Say if California declared "As long as the federal government defies our rule on this issue, no state or local law enforcement officer is allowed to cooperate in any way with the DEA." Of course this would mean losing federal money. California would have to be prepared to deal with that consequence. But what could the federal government do?.

Send in troops and occupy the capitol. Seize bank accounts. Seize assets. Close ports. Close airports. Arrest public officials for contempt of Federal court orders.

Here's another nullification idea. State governments are now some of the biggest employers in the country. Say if state governments refused to turn over state income tax withholdings until the federal government met some demand?

I hope you get the idea. Instead of saying "We're an independent country" and daring federal troops to invade say "We're just not going to cooperate with this law". Don't give the feds any inch of a moral high ground.

I don't disagree with a stepwise approach. I never said we should secede tomorrow. What I advocate is preparing by taking steps to encourage a sense of independence in the states and a sense of disdain for the Federal government. Rather than beseaching the Federal government to be nice, we start questioning their relevance. Because ultimately I don't believe nullification works without a credible threat of secession to back it up. It is a bluff. And the Federal government will call that bluff. In order to back up nullification you must prepare people mentally for secession.
 
Fair enough. But I am at work. Still doesn't take away from the merits of my opinion.

And I could find five or six old posts with it spelled correctly.

But touche. I will concede that I mispelled it. And I won't even edit it so that you can bask in your victory. :)

Sincerely,

Slutter McGee

Something I have found interesting over the past few years. The word is often mispelled , but everyone always knows exactly what is meant regardless of how it is spelled.
 
If you did then rather then "seceding" you could just have a constitutional convention and "fix" whatever it is that you want to secede over.


I don't see a Con-Con fixing the problem. And suppose you are in one of the States that doesn't agree with what the Con-Con does? You just going to take the screwing?

Secession is not just a tool to get what we want by bluffing. Secession is a RIGHT that is itself essential for the function of the Federal government. If the union doesn't work for your state, your state should be able to leave without so much as a rattled saber. The only meaningful restraint on government is the right to leave it when it ceases to serve your interests.
 
I don't like ANY Federal law. The Federal government is all burden and no benefit now. The two things it was supposed to do - manage international relations and interstate commerce - it utterly ruined.

Fine. You're against all federal laws. Now how many Americans can you get to agree with you?

Actually I believe it denied the Confederate government the right to ban slavery, not the states, - meaning it left it a State issue just as it should have been under the US Constitution. And many very prominent Southerners - including Robert E. Lee, were opposed to slavery. But they were more strongly in SUPPORT of maintaining the Constitutional balance of power intended by the Founders.

You must not have read the confederate constitution. It prevents any confederate state from ending slavery within it's own territory as well as barring the confederacy itself from doing it.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp
(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.
.
.
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Sec. 2. (I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.


As far as Robert E. Lee is concerned, he had to be forced by court to free his father-in-law's slaves. Lee was executor of the will. The will specified the slaves were to be freed. Lee went to court to keep them enslaved as long as possible. He was against slavery on an economic basis, but not fundamentally "anti slavery".

http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Lee_Robert_Edward_ca_1806-1870
As Custis's executor, Lee found himself confronted with the political reality of slavery. He disliked the institution—more for its inefficiency than from moral repugnance—yet defended it throughout his life. Custis, however, had liberated his slaves in a messy will that stipulated that they be released within five years. Lee interpreted this to mean that the slaves could be held for the entire period. The slaves, believing they were already free, accosted Lee and escaped in large numbers. Lee responded by hiring out many Arlington slaves, breaking up families that had been together for decades. He then filed legal petitions to keep them enslaved indefinitely. Only when the courts ruled against him did Lee finally free the slaves.


That said he was a decent man and after the civil war helped integrate a church.


Southerners understood very well what the election of Lincon meant. He campaigned on increasing the tariffs and the idea of government raising revenue and using it for internal improvements (translation:graft). It was clear the problem of an overbearing Federal government using tariffs to harm the South for the benefit of Northern interests was NOT going away. Furthermore, Southerners knew that their electoral advantage was doomed as well.

I guess you think southerners couldn't count? Before secession they had enough votes in the senate to block the Morill tariff. The only way their electoral advantage was "doomed" was by their own secession, or by Lincoln's platform of restricting the expansion of...you can say it...slavery.

Send in troops and occupy the capitol. Seize bank accounts. Seize assets. Close ports. Close airports. Arrest public officials for contempt of Federal court orders.

Except NONE of that happened to South Carolina. And it wasn't because Andrew Jackson was yellow bellied. By not giving Jackson the moral high ground through any initiation of violence, South Carolina was able to undermine the will of the pro-tariff forces. Oh sure they gave "Old Hickory" authorization to invade, but then they quietly rescinded the tariff. Now if a state did something so radical as hold back its income tax the federal government might do what you suggest, but that's a big might. If a state merely instructed it's officers not to cooperate with the DEA current federal law would be on that state's side! If a state seceded and/or initiated the use of force by firing on the modern day equivalent of Ft. Sumter I guarantee you what that the nightmare scenario you have listed would happen.


I don't disagree with a stepwise approach. I never said we should secede tomorrow. What I advocate is preparing by taking steps to encourage a sense of independence in the states and a sense of disdain for the Federal government. Rather than beseaching the Federal government to be nice, we start questioning their relevance. Because ultimately I don't believe nullification works without a credible threat of secession to back it up. It is a bluff. And the Federal government will call that bluff. In order to back up nullification you must prepare people mentally for secession.

Fair enough. But if you're just talking about nullification you are more likely to get more support and reach "critical mass" sooner. Further some forms of nullification have already been upheld by the supreme court. The federal government is not allowed to "commandeer" state government to do its bidding. So how does it get around that? By offering federal grants. If states were simply willing to do without the money the federal government would have much less power.
 
I don't see a Con-Con fixing the problem. And suppose you are in one of the States that doesn't agree with what the Con-Con does? You just going to take the screwing?

I don't agree that a con-con is the solution either. But I'm suggesting that IF you had enough of a consensus across the country for secession to be successful THEN you'd also have enough consensus to do what you wanted to do via a con-con. Besides, say if you seceded and the new "confederacy" passed a constitution that you disagreed with? For instance say if one of the confederate states just wanted to end protective tariffs, but also wanted to end slavery? The confederate constitution forbade that.

Secession is not just a tool to get what we want by bluffing. Secession is a RIGHT that is itself essential for the function of the Federal government. If the union doesn't work for your state, your state should be able to leave without so much as a rattled saber. The only meaningful restraint on government is the right to leave it when it ceases to serve your interests.

Yeah...says you and every other secession advocate. I've never seen that written in the constitution. Surprisingly the confederate states didn't specify a "right of secession" in their constitution either. Anyway, when it comes to war it's not who's "right" it's who's "left".
 
response

Fine. You're against all federal laws. Now how many Americans can you get to agree with you? .

It doesn't matter. What matters is how many people in MY STATE can I get to agree with me. Thats the point and advantage of secession.

You must not have read the confederate constitution. It prevents any confederate state from ending slavery within it's own territory as well as barring the confederacy itself from doing it.

I concede your greater knowledge of the Civil War and the Confederate Constitution. But I don't concede the relevance. It is a different world today.


Except NONE of that happened to South Carolina. And it wasn't because Andrew Jackson was yellow bellied. By not giving Jackson the moral high ground through any initiation of violence, South Carolina was able to undermine the will of the pro-tariff forces. Oh sure they gave "Old Hickory" authorization to invade, but then they quietly rescinded the tariff. Now if a state did something so radical as hold back its income tax the federal government might do what you suggest, but that's a big might. If a state merely instructed it's officers not to cooperate with the DEA current federal law would be on that state's side! If a state seceded and/or initiated the use of force by firing on the modern day equivalent of Ft. Sumter I guarantee you what that the nightmare scenario you have listed would happen.].

Not sure why you are insisting on framing this in the context of the American Civil War. There are many other, more modern examples of what I envision. The break up of the USSR being one. There was also precedent for the threat of secession in the US long before the Civil War.

In any event, holding back the income tax would be essential in a serious campaign of nullification because that is the only way a State could afford to risk losing Federal money.



Fair enough. But if you're just talking about nullification you are more likely to get more support and reach "critical mass" sooner. Further some forms of nullification have already been upheld by the supreme court. The federal government is not allowed to "commandeer" state government to do its bidding. So how does it get around that? By offering federal grants. If states were simply willing to do without the money the federal government would have much less power.

I am talking about nullification for starters, bringing secession into public debate to start getting people to think about it, officially claiming the right of secession, and ultimately seceding if the Federal government does not abandon its unConstitutional activites.

Nullification ultimately needs secession to back it up. In fact, it logically leads to secession when a State nullifies a law that impacts other States.
 
Really?

Yeah...says you and every other secession advocate. I've never seen that written in the constitution. Surprisingly the confederate states didn't specify a "right of secession" in their constitution either. Anyway, when it comes to war it's not who's "right" it's who's "left".


It isn't written in the Constitution because it is implicit in a VOLUNTARY compact. It is bizarre to think that the Federal government, which was clearly intended to be an agent of the States with limited powers, and which the states chose to join or not, was some kind of suicide pact or Mafia blood oath from which there was no escape. There is nothing to suggest that was intended.

Also missing from the Constitutuion, by the way, is any authority for the Federal government to attack States that try to leave. And, as I am sure you are aware, the Federal government was one of enumerated powers and all rights not specifically granted it were reserved to the States. Including the right to leave without being attacked and destroyed.

And when it comes to war there IS right even if you lose. The North was wrong and the Federal government now is wrong. And if a State tries to secede now, it would be right even if it loses.
 
The ultimate goal must be secession!

While I appreciate your position and whence I think from which it is you are coming, this is all very misguided, IMO.

I see advantages each to federalism and anti-federalism. Where I stand on that issue, I am still undecided and it isn't really relevant here.

The fundamental point, which you miss with your great starboard broadside (mainly because the target it to port), is that the ultimate goal is freedom. Given this, secession is not, in and of itself, a sufficient vehicle. There are at least three necessary elements any people must possess in order to become free and remain that way.

First, the greater population (critical mass) must be well enough educated and trained in the art and craft of liberty. Make no mistake about it, liberty most certainly requires art and craft by those who would live freely, which implies a minimal expertise required of a free nation's citizens in order that the state of freedom may be maintained on a long-term basis. This cannot be escaped under any circumstance because human beings are involved and in such endeavors nobody can be trusted. Ever.

Second, that same critical mass must actively maintain and exercise the will to maintain the state of liberty on an ongoing basis. This is where my loose notion of a universal secular religion came into play, where our freedoms are regarded and acted upon in much the same ways as one's religion often is. The point I probably failed to make in my earlier attempts at broaching this topic is that freedom becomes part of the individual such that it cannot be separated from him any more than his heart or other vital organs could be without destroying the creature. As long as people are willing to trust their liberties, their rights, their very lives to third parties for the convenience of being able to single-mindedly pursue more important issues such as spending time wringing one's hands over what color the new BMW should be, free nations shall remain in peril. Liberty must be the first and foremost concern in the everyday lives of free people.

Thus far we see that in order to maintain liberty in the long run, people need to understand it and the various ancillary issues that touch upon it and must be willing to act in a manner consistent with proper maintenance. This includes the possibility of actually killing other individuals, whether acting alone or in groups, who would dare trespass against their rightful claims. Such willingness is yet another element in this formula because it is often the case that those who would usurp are most often of a sort who understand and respect nothing but unvarnished force. Attempts to reason with such people universally lead to that most vile and unacceptable result: compromise. One never compromises on basic rights. One compromises when deciding whether the pizza will have anchovies.

Third, there must be formal constructs in place that support liberty and make clear the right of the individual to live according to the dictates of his conscience and to be free of the threat of force for his rightful action. Large populations must have such formalisms in place in order to keep usurpers at bay without having to resort to threats and violence as the first tier response.

A well educated population imbued with not only the ability, but a vigorous bent toward maintaining their liberties first and foremost and well supported with the ever helpful formal constructs that support the ready maintenance of a free state, is what is most needed. Secession may or may not be an additional, distantly secondary consideration. I see some great virtues in federalism when properly constructed and administered, just as I see equally potential hazards in anti-federalism. Each has its virtues and drawbacks. Each is wholly dependent upon the quality and demeanor of the people whom they purport to serve, for it is precisely those people who comprise the body of governance and not some ill-defined third-party fiction called "government" or "the state" or even "the people", whose reality is naught but a lie foisted upon people too ignorant or lazy to know or care about the truth. This is a central truth that most people fail to grasp. It is so because to acknowledge it would then demand right action on their parts, which in turn demands responsibility for themselves - a demand with which far too many refuse to be burdened. This is why our nation is in the shape we now find it. Until enough people decide to choose true freedom, which exacts a high cost in personal responsibility, we will continue the slide into bald faced slavery, thinking that we can get something for nothing.

Also, one given that should always be assumed is that there will always be one or more cadres of gangsters looking for ways to take what you have without permission, whether it be the fruits of your labor, your freedom, or other rightful possessions. This is called "getting over" and it is as old as the hills.

I am sure there are a few of you that want to shoot me because I keep repeating the same things over and over. I apologize for being such a broken record, but to date I see very little evidence that too many people understand what is REALLY needed here, which is a return to basics and self-examination.

As usual, my plugged nickel's worth.
 
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