Corporatism - The New Aristocracy

Please read Rand, Rothbard, Hayek, and Econ101 textbook

A true free market can only exist where there are no barriers to entry into the field.

You are confusing the useless subjective term "true free market" with one actually used in economic theory, "perfect competition."

Perfect competition is a theoretical construct; the fact that markets only approach it does not make it, or anything else, invalid.

In free societies, absent regulation (yes including anti-monopoly regs) markets tend to approach perfect competition depending on entry barriers.
 
as if government has ever really been WE THE PEOPLE. It is supposed to be in theory, but the very reason the founders put so many restraints on the government was their knowledge that government in reality serves its OWN interests, not its people's.

When you equate the GOVERNMENT with the PEOPLE, bad things happen...a la absolutism, fascism, nazism, communism, and all other totalitarian government types

besides, government schooling gives so many oppurtunities for indoctrination and propaganda. we probably don't realize the things they've crammed into our brains.
 
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The government is not "the people". The government is the corporations. People elect government officials, then they do whatever they feel like it because the people do not monitor their activities closely enough to understand when they are being screwed, and the corporate controlled media does a good job of spinning info to "the people". Also, the people know that even if they do impeach, or choose not to re-elect some crooked politician, another one will just be elected to take his place. When a genuine candidate comes around, once in a blue moon, like Ron Paul or Ross Perot, he is never elected. Government is a poor representative of the people's interests, but it does very well serving it's corporate masters.
 
You are confusing the useless subjective term "true free market" with one actually used in economic theory, "perfect competition."

Perfect competition is a theoretical construct; the fact that markets only approach it does not make it, or anything else, invalid.

In free societies, absent regulation (yes including anti-monopoly regs) markets tend to approach perfect competition depending on entry barriers.

I think that's why we're using the casual term "true free market" to refer to a free society, absent regulation, which comes closest to approaching perfect competition. :p
 
This is a nice little theoretical arguement but is not representative of reality, especially today. Besides, this sort of behavior would get a corporation in ALOT of trouble with shareholders for intentionally taking losses with "promises" to make it up later.

Now that's ironic.

I love how Rothbardian purists talk about this mythical anarcho-capitalist theoretical paradise that has never existed, ever. Not even close. Reminds me of communist purists.

Accountable to shareholders? First, shareholders have no say other than to sell their shares. All other talk about shareholder rights and activism is just more fantasy. Corporations are totalitarian dictatorships. But somehow just because it isn't called "government", it's all good in the eyes of some. It doesn't matter if you label it a powerful "government", "corporation" or "religion", it's all the same. Power corrupts.

With mutual funds, index funds and retirement trusts, most people don't even know what stocks they own. Sure, corporations may be held accountable to these super-shareholders, but those super-shareholders are nothing more than other huge corporate entities, who have been proven not to have the best interests of the small investors.

America has certainly represented one of the best examples of open and competive markets, but to put on blinders and ignore corruption, abuse of power, oligopolies, collusion and totalitarianism because it isn't labeled "government" is overly idealistic, and will lead to more concentration of power and abuse.
 
Now that's ironic.

I love how Rothbardian purists talk about this mythical anarcho-capitalist theoretical paradise that has never existed, ever. Not even close. Reminds me of communist purists.


America has certainly represented one of the best examples of open and competive markets, but to put on blinders and ignore corruption, abuse of power, oligopolies, collusion and totalitarianism because it isn't labeled "government" is overly idealistic, and will lead to more concentration of power and abuse.

therein lies the dilemma: how can you restrict corporations/markets without big government, and how can you restrict government without letting corporations run wild?
i actually want to know! I mean, given the choice, i'd take corporations (a company has never commited genocide or war, governments do), but is there a way to avoid either power system without strengthening the other?
 
sure

therein lies the dilemma: how can you restrict corporations/markets without big government, and how can you restrict government without letting corporations run wild?
i actually want to know! I mean, given the choice, i'd take corporations (a company has never commited genocide or war, governments do), but is there a way to avoid either power system without strengthening the other?

Break them both up. Less government not more. and breaking up corps means free markets. Cell phones came into being in large part because telecom giants were broke up and that which governs least governs best. Just "how" we get that done is what RPF is all about.
 
On the Standard Oil debate:

At no point did Standard Oil ever have 100% of the market share. At their peak, they controlled 88% of the market. You can argue all day that they were too powerful but claiming that they were a monopoly is simply not true, unless you alter the definition of the word.

Monopolies in and of themselves are not necessarily dangerous in a market economy; they only pose a threat when they are created by government. In fact, historically classical liberal thinkers had always viewed monopoly as government-granted privilege to do business through charters, protectionist trade policy, tax laws, or other laws amounting to barrier to entry. This definition was changed later on by economists who defined "perfect competition" (an arbitrary and indefinite term) and then measured all market activity against it. Competition in the real sense means that there are no barriers to entry. Market share cannot be a sufficient barrier to entry in and of itself; as there is always the possibility that someone will enter the market unless the existing firm keeps costs and prices down while expanding production, which benefits consumers.

If you believe Standard Oil was a danger or some kind of threat, then consider the following: during their reign at the top of the oil market they continually expanded production and lowered prices. How is this a harm to consumers? Standard economic theory on monopoly predicts that monopolistic firms raise prices and restrict production. Yet, this is exactly opposite of what was happening in the Standard Oil case. And, as the government brought action against them, their market share was continuing to diminish - evidence that as long as there are no government barriers to entry no market share is safe (look at the top 10 producing companies from 1950 and compare them with today). The oil markets, despite all the money being made by Rockefeller, were always competitive. What some people fear, however, is competition where someone wins (temporarily).

The question to ask is what is really the fear? That a company will gouge consumers with high prices? This plainly did not happen in the case of Standard Oil, who at no point failed to have competitors. One of the few, if not the only, cases of a free market "monopoly" was Alcoa, who maintained their market share while, like Standard Oil, drastically increasing output and lowering prices, thereby contributing (also like Standard Oil) to higher living standards.

What antitrust laws do is provide an opportunity for defeated or failing market participants to use government power to stifle their competitors. As evidence, note that 95% of all antitrust cases are brought by defeated businesses (as D.T. Armentano states in this video) who are seeking to use the laws to leverage more market share for their inefficient, failing enterprises. This drives up costs in the respected market while at the same time imposing a tax burden on all Americans. As a testament to the legitimacy of the antitrust laws, there have been few (if any - I'm not aware of any) antitrust suits brought by consumers who were harmed by a business.

But, nonetheless, Standard Oil was broken up, and ever since then the government has established heavy regulations on the industry which have served to erect real barriers to entry and effectively cartelized the industry. How has this worked out? Happy with the results? Rockefeller was. After the case Rockefeller changed his tune completely. Instead of defending competition he began to decry it in the name of economic efficiency. Modern economies, he said, could not be efficiently planned by the "destructive chaos" of the market place. No, instead, we needed an elite group of entrepreneurs who would, with the help of government, plan production schedules, control resources, and cooperate in any way possible in order to maximize efficiency.

Sound like collusion? If it does, that's because it is - collusion between government and corporations, which we would call corporatism or even fascism. Rockefeller, Morgan, Carnegie, and others favored this system in order to protect their profits from competitive forces. Plainly stated - they did not like market competition and saw an opportunity to insulate themselves against it, using government, for the sake of "economic efficiency." They resorted to government to impose regulations and cartelize industries precisely because all attempts at collusion for the purpose of cartelizing free markets have failed. If you want to monopolize, you need government, as the classical liberals of the 18th and 19th century repeatedly said.

And what was economic efficiency, anyway? Whatever Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan, and company said it was. An astute economist, however, has a different answer. Economic efficiency is whatever the consumer says, voting with their dollars in a free market.

Antitrust laws are not needed because of robber barons. Robber barons are created because of antitrust laws.

Recommended reading: Dominick Armentano, Antitrust and Monopoly: Anatomy of a Policy Failure.
 
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therein lies the dilemma: how can you restrict corporations/markets without big government, and how can you restrict government without letting corporations run wild?
i actually want to know! I mean, given the choice, i'd take corporations (a company has never commited genocide or war, governments do), but is there a way to avoid either power system without strengthening the other?

Governments can make murder and theft illegal. They can also make some laws regarding corporate crimes. Doesn't necessarily have to increase the size of government. I'm sure we can all agree that it's all of the other stuff that makes government so big, not law enforcement.

"Corporations" (or large mercantile interests) have always partnered with government. And yes, they have engaged in war and genocide. The various "East India" Companies freely engaged in violence against each other and native populations.

Going to war is about the confluence of various interests. Haliburton certainly had it's share of influence in the decision to go to war with Iraq. Blackwater and others have pushed for our continued presence there. And we can't ignore the Gasoline and Oil Companies interests and influences.


As for solutions, Separation of Church and State, Three branches of Federal government, and separation of Federal, State and local power are all methods to de-centralize power. Adam Smith and many of the founding fathers found it too obvious to legislate the fact that large mercantile interests were not to be allowed to participate in legislation and government decisions.

The separation of government and corporations (large business interests) needs to be legislated and enforced with more zeal than the separation of Church and State. And that doesn't mean enlarging government!

How much of our government is dedicated to the separation of Church and State? Some legislation and lots of lawsuits maintain that separation. Our problem is that the government, courts, and the public generally believe (today) that this linkage of big business and government is a good thing. They couldn't be more wrong.
 
America has certainly represented one of the best examples of open and competive markets, but to put on blinders and ignore corruption, abuse of power, oligopolies, collusion and totalitarianism because it isn't labeled "government" is overly idealistic, and will lead to more concentration of power and abuse.

Corporations do not claim authority over you. Governments do. Governments claim they can violate your life, liberty, and property. If I don't like a certain corporation, I can chose a competitor or become the competition. But can I create my own government and compete with the current?
 
What antitrust laws do is provide an opportunity for defeated or failing market participants to use government power to stifle their competitors. As evidence, note that 95% of all antitrust cases are brought by defeated businesses (as D.T. Armentano states in this video) who are seeking to use the laws to leverage more market share for their inefficient, failing enterprises.
I would not expect to see anti trust cases brought by successful companies. They have no reason to sue. The question is why did the would- be competitors fail? Was their own business model flawed or did the existing companies do something to cause the newcomer to fail? If Intel has an agreement with Dell Computers that they will provide processors for them to make computers with only under the condition that they do not buy any processors from anybody else then Dell basically has a choice to either use only Intel or only somebody else. Since Dell is the number one producer of manufactured computers, it is nearly impossible for another company to achieve any significant market share of the processing market. That means less competition and Intel can charge higher prices for their processors and consumers pay more. If Intel makes the same deal with everybody they sell to, then nobody else can make money producing CPUs. They are using their market clout to prevent new competition.
 
This is totally false. Remember the robber baron days? The government didn't do anything to help Rockefeller or Carnegie. They let them take over the industries. If the government doesn't regulate companies (preventing them from merging or doing other monopolistic actions like colluding) then we'll get monopolies. Monopolies aren't efficient. They drive prices up while keeping supply low.

QFT
QFT
 
I would not expect to see anti trust cases brought by successful companies. They have no reason to sue. The question is why did the would- be competitors fail? Was their own business model flawed or did the existing companies do something to cause the newcomer to fail? If Intel has an agreement with Dell Computers that they will provide processors for them to make computers with only under the condition that they do not buy any processors from anybody else then Dell basically has a choice to either use only Intel or only somebody else. Since Dell is the number one producer of manufactured computers, it is nearly impossible for another company to achieve any significant market share of the processing market. That means less competition and Intel can charge higher prices for their processors and consumers pay more. If Intel makes the same deal with everybody they sell to, then nobody else can make money producing CPUs. They are using their market clout to prevent new competition.

Your entire argument is predicated on the possibility that Intel might make similar deals with "everybody they sell to." This is the essential flaw with those who continue to support antitrust law - it rests on what "might" happen if a company is allowed to continue the practice of arranging voluntary contracts with suppliers and/or producers. Yet history has demonstrated conclusively that such attempts to corner markets and raise prices will inevitably break down.

The fact is that competition in this case would preclude all other manufacturers from signing a similar agreement with Intel. Why would Dell's competitors, upon seeing (or hearing) that they've inked an exclusive contract with Intel, do the same? If Intel's competitors can develop a cheaper, faster chip then they could bury Dell in the long run by continuing business with AMD. Keeping their options open would be the best way to cut into Dell's market share. They want more options, not fewer.

And, we must ask, if (and that's a big "if") all other competitors sign this exclusive deal with Intel and Intel began raising prices after driving AMD out of business, do you really think nobody would enter the PC processing market to undercut them? Processing technology is employed in just about everything these days, and if Intel had somehow trapped the entire PC manufacturing market then you can bet that other companies would move with lightning speed to enter the CPU market. Profits and high prices attract competition in the free market - unless the government interferes.

What do you think would happen once the original contract expires? Would Dell and the other hapless PC manufacturers sign another one after being gouged by Intel? Remember - this is all assuming that Intel can corner the entire market in the first place. (it should be noted more and more people are buying computers from dealers on the internet, where the option to include an AMD processor is always available)

The fact is that an exlusive deal between Intel and Dell does not restrict competition anymore than an exclusive deal between a soft-drink provider and a fast-food restaurant. Such agreements are the nature of free exchange. What an exclusive agreement does is ensure a volume of transactions between the two firms and allows Intel to plan accordingly. This they do in order to lower prices through expanded production, just like when you buy in bulk from a company they can give you a better deal. (Hence, the "discriminatory pricing" charge from AMD)

Predatory pricing was not a theory developed by economists, but was a developed by defeated competitors who complained about Standard Oil. Because low prices and expanded production are not a threat to consumers and are not indicative of monopolistic behavior, some menacing argument had to be concocted in order to make people fear companies with large market share. The result was the great boogeyman story - that if company X is allowed to continue then they might raise their prices eventually and drive us all into ruin. A valiant attempt at an argument, but predatory pricing has never been successful. In fact, for many reasons (including the ones I've stated already) it is a ridiculous idea and, as we speak, introductory textbooks on economics are now removing references to predatory pricing - but don't let that make you think that the justice department or defeated businesses will stop dragging out the theory.

The fact is that AMD is traveling the same path as other defeated competitors crying foul - they are asking the government to interfere with voluntary contracts so they can gain market share (and profits). They are angry that they did not have a good enough product to prevent Dell from making an exclusive agreement from their chief competitor. And, most of all, they are going to make consumers pay for their own inefficiency.
 
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The Intel case was a hypothetical example of how a company could use its power to prevent others from entering its industry and thus restrict competition- limiting customer choice and pricing. Intel has been the subject of anti- trust investigations concerning the practice. http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2008/jan/jan10a_08.html
ATTORNEY GENERAL CUOMO LAUNCHES ANTITRUST INVESTIGATION OF INTEL

Subpoena Seeks Information on Potentially Monopolistic Practices [ En españo l]



NEW YORK, NY (January 10, 2008) ‑ Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo today served a wide-ranging subpoena seeking documents and information on Intel Corporation (NASDAQ: INTC), the world’s largest maker of computer microprocessors. Cuomo is investigating whether Intel violated state and federal antitrust laws by coercing customers to exclude its main rival, Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), from the worldwide market for x86 computer processing units (CPU).

“After careful preliminary review, we have determined that questions raised about Intel's potential anticompetitive conduct warrant a full and factual investigation,” said Attorney General Cuomo. “Protecting fair and open competition in the microprocessor market is critical to New York, the United States, and the world. Businesses and consumers everywhere should have the ability to easily choose the best products at the best price and only fair competition can guarantee it. Monopolistic practices are a serious concern particularly for New Yorkers who are navigating an information-intensive economy.”

The subpoena served today on Intel seeks documents and information concerning Intel’s pricing practices and possible attempt to exclude competitors through its market domination. The information sought is relevant to whether Intel, among other things:

Penalized its customers, primarily computer manufacturers, for purchasing x86 computer processing units (CPU) from competitors;
Improperly paid customers for exclusivity;
Illegally cut off competitors from distribution channels.
Modern x86 CPUs are currently the industry-wide standard for a majority of desktops, laptops, notebooks, servers, and workstations. The x86 market accounts for over $30 billion in annual worldwide sales, with Intel retaining the lion's share of the market, estimated at 90% by revenue and 80% by volume.

“Our investigation is focused on determining whether Intel has improperly used monopoly power to exclude competitors or stifle innovation,” said Cuomo. “We will also look at whether Intel abused its power to remove competitive threats or harm competition in violation of New York and federal antitrust laws.”

Similar antitrust allegations have been examined by authorities in Europe and Asia and resulted in formal actions, including a cease and desist order, against Intel. In July 2007, the European Commission reached and the Korean Fair Trade Commission reached preliminary conclusions that Intel violated competition law. In 2005, the Japanese Fair Trade Commission concluded that Intel violated its competition laws and Intel agreed to cease and desist.

Both Intel and AMD are based in California.
 
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Corporations do not claim authority over you. Governments do. Governments claim they can violate your life, liberty, and property. If I don't like a certain corporation, I can chose a competitor or become the competition. But can I create my own government and compete with the current?

Where do I go to get gasoline that is not provided by the Chevron/Exxon/Mobile/BP oligopoly? Or health care not provided by an HMO or Blue Shield?

If you are an employee, the corporation claims more authority over you than the US government. Of course you can quit, but people with huge mortgages, bills and families find that hard to do.

You can leave a country, and yes, alternative governments do arise...and the level of difficulty in competing with a government is similar to attempting to compete with a monopoly/oligopoly that has cemented their position by partnering with government.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to loose" - KK performed by JJ
 
If you are an employee, the corporation claims more authority over you than the US government. Of course you can quit, but people with huge mortgages, bills and families find that hard to do.

Are you arguing that we need to have government regulation of corporations to watch out for people that bought more house than they could afford and who have not had the sense to put a financial emergency plan into place?
 
Are you arguing that we need to have government regulation of corporations to watch out for people that bought more house than they could afford and who have not had the sense to put a financial emergency plan into place?


LOL finally someone said it

if you made the CHOICE to buy a house for x amount of dollars knowing you can only afford it if you kept your current job thats your CHOICE and you must pay the consequences the government is not your parents


also to kind of hit up on the Intel argument

havnt computer parts and computers in general prices gone down and correct me if im wrong (and i am allot :) ) but isn't the computer industry one of the least regulated industries?
 
if you made the CHOICE to buy a house for x amount of dollars knowing you can only afford it if you kept your current job thats your CHOICE and you must pay the consequences the government is not your parents

If someone doesn't want to be a "slave" to their job because of their mortgage, they can save up cash to buy a house. It's easier than one would think. If a mortgage takes 30 years to pay off, putting that same monthly payment into an investment will yield the purchase price of the house in 7.5 years because you're making interest instead of paying it.

also to kind of hit up on the Intel argument

havnt computer parts and computers in general prices gone down and correct me if im wrong (and i am allot :) ) but isn't the computer industry one of the least regulated industries?

You are very right. Not only have computer prices gone down in real terms, but they've gone down in dollars as well, in spite of inflation.
 
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