Convert my father to the Revolution!

I read this and it almost worried me.

The average person will read that and might be turned off due to it leaning towards conspiracy theories. Sure this will interest some, but some will just label you kooky, and then your stuck trying to re-prove your sanity.

I don't think this one would work with my Dad.... there would need to be a lot more facts to back it all up.

And even then... I don't think it'd get through to him.

He needs cold hard facts slapped in his face from someone he trusts over and over.
 
millercards said:
I read this and it almost worried me.

The average person will read that and might be turned off due to it leaning towards conspiracy theories. Sure this will interest some, but some will just label you kooky, and then your stuck trying to re-prove your sanity.

I don't think this one would work with my Dad.... there would need to be a lot more facts to back it all up.

And even then... I don't think it'd get through to him.

He needs cold hard facts slapped in his face from someone he trusts over and over.
Click to expand...

how does it protect us when the military is so overextended and exhausted?

How does he want to rein in spending? You have to cut the military
 
man I wish I had something to offer you, but you're already farther with your dad than I am with mine. I send him videos and articles all the time, but they don't make any impact, when he actually takes time out of his busy retired schedule to read them...he finds something that he claims discredits them. When I try to tell him we can't afford all these wars he claims we could afford them if we got all our other spending under control. I'd like to find some figures that show exactly how much the war on Iraq and terrorism has cost us and contributed to the national debt, but I'm not sure where to find them and doubt it would do any good anyway. Some of these neocons are so far gone I think it will take a major catastrophe/event to actually wake them up.
 
My father is The same way. Honestly I think giving him Libert Defined really helped me. And getting him to understand that we will be forced to change foriegn policy either way due to money, it's better to do it voluntarily.
 
I also find it interesting that the neocons tend to agree with Obama on the wars.

How weird is that?
 
moreliberty said:
My father is The same way. Honestly I think giving him Libert Defined really helped me. And getting him to understand that we will be forced to change foriegn policy either way due to money, it's better to do it voluntarily.
Click to expand...

I too gave my parents a copy of Liberty Defined. I don't think my father has even cracked it open, I had to beg my mother to even open it, I think she got a few chapters in and stopped. So frustrating
 
Alright, point this out:

Prior to WWII the United States was not at ALL hated in the Middle East or Asia. It was the European powers that were. The countries of Europe were overwhelmingly despised by the Middle East. Now, after 50 years of military involvement over there, using the CIA to topple stable and sometimes democratic governments, we are indeed hated. However, the Europeans are not. Sure, sometimes there's a small flare up in tensions, but no one in the Middle East calls Sweden 'the Great Satan'.

What are the commonalities between these circumstances? Military 'assistance'. When the Europeans had troops 'keeping order' over there, they were hated. As soon as we did that, we were also hated. Any cause-effect analysis of history clearly shows a consistent and rational correlation where those that militarily disrupt their societies become hated. These are humans, not animals, and they act like humans do, no matter what their ideology, and one things humans hate is seeing the people that are like them killed and oppressed by people not like them.

Which brings me to point number two: we asked France for help in our war of independence, and then when it was over, we asked them to leave, and they did. We have not been asked by these countries for help, and moreover, the fact that we have removed democratic governments there to install oppressive regimes really makes the idea that we are there to help the little guys, just we needed during the revolution, silly. How is destroying a government which is democratically elected to install a military dictatorship helping the people of that country achieve... anything?
 
He always counters that groups in the Middle East have Always hated us, and that they would try attacking us no matter what.
Click to expand...

They have not always hated us. Specifically, Iran has not attacked a country in over 100 years. They have only defended themselves against us, or against a militant dictatorship that we have created. I would use specifics here about our history in the middle east in the last 60 years.

Iraq and Iran History with US
1953 - We overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran and put into power the Shah.
1979 - The Iranian communist revolution overthrew the Shah.
1982 - We made public our support of Iraq and Hussein (who was then and earlier viewed as a CIA asset).
1987 - We were planning the bombings for Iraq military against Iran.
1990 - Iraq (with it's newly built up military) attempts to invade and annex Kuwait which prompts Dessert Storm. Proving that we only like Iraq being militant as long as it's against our enemies.
2003 - Iraq war over WMD's that we never found but insisted were there because we gave them to Iraq in the late 80's.

Iran/US Relations
US support of Iraq in Iran/Iraq War

Afghanistan/US Relations
1979 - Soviet Russia invades Afghanistan to keep communists in power.
1979-1989 - Operation Cyclone uses foreign aid to fund Mujahideen against the soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the leaders funded by US and trained by Pakistan. We all know what happened there.

The point is that we stick our noses in peoples business and end up with blowback. There are numerous videos that explain these things pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4a__tcfFug
 
These are all awesome, and it'd probably help just bring him to the thread, but that's harder to do. I'll probably read outloud a lot of these while talking to him.

The one problem that remains. And I really have no idea how to argue it, I may have to just get down and dirty and do a little research, but where to start?

My father tells me people in the Middle East have hated us/our type for centuries. Back to the 1600s maybe?

If I mention the part about them not likeing Europe anymore, he'll counter that they just hate us more now because we're stronger than Europe.

I think I'm going to roll a little more with the 'Human Beings' argument.

I've started down the path already with this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY
 
1. We can deploy anywhere in the world within 13 hours, so we don't have to have permanent bases anymore.

2. Tea Party Sen. Tom Davis explains Paul's foreign policy very well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPy_U6k5W-k

3. Overseas is the only place to cut to stop the debt that is destroying our economy.
 
JordanL said:
Alright, point this out:

Prior to WWII the United States was not at ALL hated in the Middle East or Asia. It was the European powers that were. The countries of Europe were overwhelmingly despised by the Middle East. Now, after 50 years of military involvement over there, using the CIA to topple stable and sometimes democratic governments, we are indeed hated. However, the Europeans are not. Sure, sometimes there's a small flare up in tensions, but no one in the Middle East calls Sweden 'the Great Satan'.

What are the commonalities between these circumstances? Military 'assistance'. When the Europeans had troops 'keeping order' over there, they were hated. As soon as we did that, we were also hated. Any cause-effect analysis of history clearly shows a consistent and rational correlation where those that militarily disrupt their societies become hated. These are humans, not animals, and they act like humans do, no matter what their ideology, and one things humans hate is seeing the people that are like them killed and oppressed by people not like them.

Which brings me to point number two: we asked France for help in our war of independence, and then when it was over, we asked them to leave, and they did. We have not been asked by these countries for help, and moreover, the fact that we have removed democratic governments there to install oppressive regimes really makes the idea that we are there to help the little guys, just we needed during the revolution, silly. How is destroying a government which is democratically elected to install a military dictatorship helping the people of that country achieve... anything?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the "they don't hate Europeans" argument doesn't hold water when they counter with examples of radical islamist attacks in European countries
 
Ask him why it is the US's responsibility to cut back on welfare spending so we can afford to pay for the defense of Europe, so Europe can save money and have a more generous welfare state?
 
millercards said:
My father is the man I most respect in my life. He's a solid christian who takes care of his own with all of his heart. He always tries to do the right thing.

He's a Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, and Fox News guy. He's no robot as he is really smart, but I can tell that he gets a lot of his back-up "facts" from the shows he watches and listens to.

I'm close though. I've opened his mind on marijuana over a few years span because I'm a user and I'm out-spoken about the drug war and the silliness of cannibus' prohibition. Paul's drug policy was one of his two issues with Ron Paul, but I've got him to let up on that one.

His other issue with Ron Paul is his foreign policy. I've exhausted my somewhat-small (but growing daily) knowledge, and cannot gain too much ground. I think I've made him think about his position a few times, but as much as he's smart, he's also stubborn (usually rightly so).

I'm hoping with this thread, I can continue the conversation with my Dad that happens once every day or every other day, with some help from some of the more advanced Paulites.

Thanks to any... here's what I'm dealing with now:

1. I've let him know about the costs, about borrowing from China to basically fund both sides of a fight that we later intervene in, about how other countries don't like our meddling and it's why they don't like us. I'm not the greatest with all of this, but I argue pretty well.

He always counters that groups in the Middle East have Always hated us, and that they would try attacking us no matter what.

Any thoughts?

2. He thinks we are doing a good job as World Police and that we are needed. He says we as a country needed help when we were first founded. He says there are other countries that need the same. He believes we need to have a strong force worldwide for protection.

Keep in mind his knowledge and stubborness.

Thanks again to any that help, and I'll keep this thread going to report progress.
Click to expand...

Needed help? The only thing the French did was blockade Yorktown at the end of the war when we had all ready won on our own. The few foreign folks who came over did on their own accord exercising their liberty to assist freedom-fighters in a just cause. No Government involvement otherwise from foreign influence. We defeated the greatest Standing Army to have ever existed with a largely militia-based system, and, if history is any indicator militia's nearly always defeat occupation and invasion forces. In any event, terrorist acts against the US are not motivated by our culture, freedoms, etc., but by our actions in their lands and to their people.

Hand him some Chalmers Johnson books as well as Michael Scheuer, Robert Pape, the Anti-Federalist Papers, William Blum, Smedley Butler, etc. If he is smart and open-minded he'll be persuaded by the argument from truth and facts. You just have to get him motivated to read the works, watch the videos, and have some empathy with fellow human beings.
 
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millercards said:
Oh and I have trouble arguing against his "Ron Paul is an Isolationist" problem.
Click to expand...

If Ron is an isolationist then so is nearly every other country on Earth. Ask him to define isolationism. Surely free-trade, diplomacy, and friendship is not isolationism. Just contrast with places like North Korea or 17th Century Japan. Or you could always use the neighbor argument. Would he call his neighbor an isolationist because he doesn't come over trash his yard, punch him in the face, and then kill his pet, but otherwise is cordial are friends and has a trade partnership?
 
millercards said:
Oh and I have trouble arguing against his "Ron Paul is an Isolationist" problem.
Click to expand...

Try telling him things like this:

1) Ron Paul supports a strong Navy that would continue to sail international waters to protect "the freedom of the seas" and peacefully project power instead of antagonizing other countries. Building a Navy is one of the few clearly defined roles of Congress and Ron Paul supports this.
2) Tell him Paul believes submarines are a "worthwhile weapon". Submarines pack incredible amounts of firepower that few nations can match.
3) Mention that our troops can be deployed anywhere within a matter of hours. This makes foreign occupation obsolete. It also doesn't antagonize nearby countries.
4) Tell him we have hypersonic weapons that can strike anywhere on Earth within an hour. I believe Paul supports investing in these kinds of defensive weapons as well.
5) Ron Paul voted for Reagan's missile defense initiative and would certainly support continued spending on other defensive weapons systems.
6) Paul would still maintain relations with our allies, we just won't be giving them free aid to subsidize their social programs. If Israel needed weapons for instance, Paul would be completely open to the American market arming them. We can help struggling countries by trading with them.
7) Check out dusman's post about Iran and missile shields in the region too.
8) A strong economy with a fiscally responsible government is critical for defense. This is important because enemy nations will get emboldened if they think we no longer can pay the bills . Likewise, a strong economy will deter attacks if we can get everyone hooked on the goods we export and we have a large pool of resources to go to war if needed.

To me, stuff like this completely destroys the myth that Ron Paul is isolationist and weak on defense. The only problem is he rarely mentions these things publicly, so it's difficult to point people to a debate where he mentions these things. But these are all true.

We need to hold the Paul campaign to the fire on this. If he lays out what his specific foreign policy strategy like he has for everything else, he can break through to a lot of conservatives.

If you tell your Dad any of these things please let me know. I'm curious what his response would be.
 
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If he likes to laugh, make sure he sees the Jon Stewart video about how the media treats Ron Paul. As I said before, the media propaganda is key to Ron Paul's perception.

I think the video is stickied at the top of the General Politics forum.
 
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