Constitutional Question - FLDS Church Raid

According to: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/18/polygamy.custody/index.html

In court Thursday, Texas state officials presented records they said show 10 women were either married or pregnant as minors. The list was found during the raid, locked in a safe at a main ranch office building, the officials said.

So, that's what they have right now?? And it still justifies imprisoning hundreds of children?

If that's it, it seems they should be raiding homes all over america. And why would anyone keep such a list locked in a safe? So those bad polygamists can reward them later?
 
sounds planted to me.

"we searched for hours, and what do you know! it was in the very bottom little back corner of the last place we checked!
-got 'em boys, you can go home."
 
There was an op-ed piece in my weekend paper. The main concerns it brought up were that police took all cellphones from the mothers once they were in custody, and that the men were held in their homes for 24 hours. The equivalent of locking people up without a warrant is the scariest thing to me. I can only assume some huge lawsuits are going to be filed against every agency involved.

I've heard some of the horror stories from past members, so the concern for going into the place can be understood. It would seem like that would be incentive for those in charge to be extra diligent to make sure no legal issues allowed any potential guilty parties to get off on technicalities. Talk about a time to dot every I and cross every T. I don't get the going in willy nilly and doing so many things so wrongly.
 
There was an op-ed piece in my weekend paper. The main concerns it brought up were that police took all cellphones from the mothers once they were in custody, and that the men were held in their homes for 24 hours. The equivalent of locking people up without a warrant is the scariest thing to me. I can only assume some huge lawsuits are going to be filed against every agency involved.

I've heard some of the horror stories from past members, so the concern for going into the place can be understood. It would seem like that would be incentive for those in charge to be extra diligent to make sure no legal issues allowed any potential guilty parties to get off on technicalities. Talk about a time to dot every I and cross every T. I don't get the going in willy nilly and doing so many things so wrongly.

I have heard "horror stories" from "normal" homes and families. I have also heard "horror stories" or children service workers, manipulating children to make a case.
I have also heard that children LIE to get their way.

It seems now that this whole case was based on a lie.
All the emotional responses to polygamy are irrelevant, Their rights were violated on a massive scale.
 
You know what really gets me the most pissed off about the whole mess? It was a set up from the very beginning:



They changed the laws to make the lifestyle of those church members illegal. Lots of people obviously had it out for that church from the start. They just needed an excuse to gain access to the "compound" so they could start rounding them all up. I call shenanigans on the whole thing.

I agree mostly with this statement, though I admit I have not read all 11 pages of this post yet.

This subject came up on another message board. I suspected right away the call was a "hoax" to begin with, though I admit my suspicion was someone particularly busybody like in another church in the area (or group of individuals from the same church or neighborhood).

I have to agree with one of the things Ron Paul constantly reminds us and is well quoted by Thomas Jefferson:

Original Post by Thomas Jefferson
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

There are many cultures, religions, etc. in the world we as individuals will never understand and, as in this case, find to be distasteful or otherwise shameful. However, it is apparent these people believe strongly in their religion and I've yet to see any conclusive evidence of children being "neglected" or "abused". I happened to catch Nancy Grace this very evening where the "former" FLDS woman was talking about how psychologically abused these children were. When asked to give an example of the abuse all of her responses sounded very much like corporal punishment and other various punishments (some I might not agree with, but certainly wouldn't categorize as "abuse", else many parents should be put on trial). If there were more substantial abuse, I know it would have been milked for all it was worth. All they could do was play the same questions over and over and the same intro tape of the supposed "victim" over and over.

If you want to retain the rights you hold dear, you must grant the same rights to those you may not agree with.

Something important to consider, and it may have already been stated, is that given how hard it is today to raise a standard family of four (mom, dad +2 kids) do you think this "sect" would have continued to flourish as they did without additional "income" (yes, welfare) from the government? I think it is a more important point to ponder because had this way of life (polygamy) been sustainable and more beneficial than the more "mainstream" union of a single man to a single woman, wouldn't this practice of "marriage" have won out in the long run? Is this a clear example of "free-market" theory applied to marriage? (ok, that's for a LOL)

Though I am compelled to protect their rights as individuals to "pursue" their brand of happiness and live as they choose, I find considerable hypocrisy in their claims of wanting to be left alone. In the end, however, it is just yet another example of why welfare is such a bad thing. Not to say it is bad because I disagree so much with this particular sect, but rather because I should not be forced to help sustain the lifestyles of individuals with whom I completely disagree. No one should be forced to do that. Wasn't it the purpose of our constitution to guarantee this?
 
What are they going to do next, arrest unmarried men who have multiple girl friends who have babies by them? What is better, a guy who knocks up a bunch of women and just walks away, or a guy who marries a bunch of women and has babies with them and then tries to be a member of the family?
 
The cold reality is that 90% of Americans agree with the governments story and actions in this case. There is virtually no freedom in "the freest country in the world." Amerika is a lost cause.
 
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as the head of a poly household....

...this scares the shit out of me. I do not have children yet, and that is a specific goal of mine. In addition, there is a woman with children who may join my relationship in the near future, and there have has been a woman with children in my household in the past. CPS is an agency that is rightly feared, not only by those in poly relationships, but by anyone who has children. These people have way too much power, much of it extra-Constitutional. Anyone can say anything, true or not, and CPS can enter your home and take your children with no probable cause or oversight whatsoever. They can use anything from your religion to a sinkfull of dirty dishes as an excuse for kidnapping your children and charging you with a crime. I would be very interested to hear from those who have successfully fought off the CPS, especially those who homeschool or are in poly families / nontraditional relationships....is there any defense against these thugs that will hold up in court? Anything that can be done to keep them out of your home and life in the first place? As for those interested in the AOC issue (and the related issue of "sex offense" laws), I offer the following links:

http://www.moraloutrage.net/

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_marriage

http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm

http://cursor.eprci.com/

Note that NH and MA have the lowest ages for marriage with parental consent. Most states have raised this age within the last 15 years, along with the age at which one could withdraw from school. Gatto makes an excellent argument that our government is increasingly extending the adolescence of our population. Remember that George Washington was 20 years old when he led the crossing of the Delaware - nowadays he wouldn't even be able to legally drink a beer. Biologically speaking, what has changed in the last 100 years? Why are we no longer considered consenting adults at age 13 or 14, as we used to be? Why is our country so out of step with the rest of the world on this issue? This is not an issue of "protecting children" (which is the job of the parents, not the government), it is an issue of freedom that we once had that is now lost.
 
Laws are laws. It isn't anti-libertarian to protect children. And at least they didn't go in guns a-blazing as in Waco.

Wish I could attribute the quote, but I don't know who first said it: Civilization's purpose is to protect preagnant women and children. Everything else is just window dressing (or words to that effect).

Robert Anson Heinlein - Time Enough for Love
All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or folly, which can — and must — be dumped in emergency to preserve this prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other basic is possible. Attempts to formulate a "perfect society" on any foundation other than "Women and children first!" is not only witless, it is automatically genocidal. Nevertheless, starry-eyed idealists (all of them male) have tried endlessly — and no doubt will keep on trying.

On edit: I forgot I'd already addressed this at post 36. If you haven't read any Heinlein, RUN to the library, get everything they have, from his early juvenile books to his last, very adult-themed work. RAH is first on my very short list of people that I admire.
 
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I thank all of you excellent Ron Paul supporters for not falling for the "Sandra" garbage, I only wish a Texas sheriff and judge had done the same. All I can say is if this was a few years ago, and I lived in Texas, I wouldn't know where my mother was right now. I have been a big Ron Paul supporter, donated all I could in November and December and I wrote several articles at theconservativevoice.com in support of him.

I almost had hope for America.

I have a blog called fldsview.blogspot.com to help people understand our goofy religion.

O God help us!
 
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I thank all of you excellent Ron Paul supporters for not falling for the "Sandra" garbage, I only wish a Texas sheriff and judge had done the same. All I can say is if this was a few years ago, and I lived in Texas, I wouldn't know where my mother was right now. I have been a big Ron Paul supporter, donated all I could in November and December and I wrote several articles at theconservativevoice.com in support of him.

I almost had hope for America.

I have a blog called fldsview.blogspot.com to help people understand our goofy religion.

O God help us!

interesting.


did you read the piece at lewrockwell.com talking about the welfare scam the flds had running?

just curious as to what your thoughts are on that.
 
If you haven't read any Heinlein, RUN to the library, get everything they have, from his early juvenile books to his last, very adult-themed work. RAH is first on my very short list of people that I admire.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

From the notebooks of Lazarus Long (1966-4272)

I've got everything except 'plan an invasion' and 'die gallantly' checked off already. God help me if I ever need to execute that last item ;)
 
interesting.


did you read the piece at lewrockwell.com talking about the welfare scam the flds had running?

just curious as to what your thoughts are on that.

I have not read the Lewrockwell piece that you refer to. I have heard this allegation. I have not seen any wide spread prosecutions or convictions for welfare fraud. From what I know and have seen most Mormons are financially responsible, and their church teaches that. The folks in Texas had backing from very wealthy business men, and there has been NO evidence of welfare fraud.
If you don't like welfare fraud END WELFARE. Prosecute Individuals that abuse the system.
Don't use it as an excuse to attack a group of people for their religious beliefs.
 
Not only did I read it, I had an email conversation with Rick Fisk about his article. My two points were:

"It is true that more boys leave than girls, but many girls also leave the FLDS and not one was ever expelled for the rediculous reason you mentioned as obvious."
"You did state that the states actions are bogus, but you also perpetuated the myth that the FLDS would cease to exist without the state. "

I have a question for you. Does the fact that I came on this blog help my cause or hurt it in your eyes? Sometimes I wonder if defending my cooky beliefs creates a negative backlash rather than a positive one. Does it?
 
Not only did I read it, I had an email conversation with Rick Fisk about his article. My two points were:

"It is true that more boys leave than girls, but many girls also leave the FLDS and not one was ever expelled for the rediculous reason you mentioned as obvious."
"You did state that the states actions are bogus, but you also perpetuated the myth that the FLDS would cease to exist without the state. "

I have a question for you. Does the fact that I came on this blog help my cause or hurt it in your eyes? Sometimes I wonder if defending my cooky beliefs creates a negative backlash rather than a positive one. Does it?

There are many here that support Liberty. There are some that do not and promote a
"party line", or an "accepted" belief system.
The Civil Liberties sub-forum is just the place for these discussions.
 
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