Constitutional Amendment: Abolishing Copyrights and Patents

Please check ALL that you agree with:

  • No individual has moral right to use force on his neighbor to prevent use of ideas or information.

    Votes: 53 77.9%
  • Since no one has moral right to use such force on his neighbor, he cannot delegate it to govment.

    Votes: 52 76.5%
  • My use of the idea does not prevent your use of the idea, therefore ideas cannot be "stolen."

    Votes: 55 80.9%
  • Owing an idea and knowing an idea are one and the same. My ownership of it does not destroy yours.

    Votes: 43 63.2%
  • Government should use force to prevent people from using information or ideas.

    Votes: 6 8.8%
  • Govment should not use force to prevent use of info since no one could deligate such athority to it

    Votes: 48 70.6%

  • Total voters
    68
OK, well I have to say, I think you guys have convinced me. All of you have made some really good points and I keep thinking this over and the more I do, the more what you're saying makes sense. (And I definitely agree with the Benson Principle, that is a perfect description of what the limitation on government use of force should be.)

I don't think abolishing patent and copyright laws will happen in our lifetimes. Too many entrenched interests there who I think will fight it with big money. (Big Pharma being one of the biggest, but also Hollywood, ASCAP, etc.) But maybe it's possible to get the escalation of the penalties to start going in the other direction.

So now I have somewhat of a moral quandary, and I think I know the answer but let me run this by you because I'd like your thoughts on it.

If I make music, and I find someone else using it without my permission, do you think it would be wrong of me to use a DMCA takedown notice, for example? I haven't ever had to before, and I have given many people on YouTube my permission to use my music in their videos for free, so I don't know if or when this might come up, but let's just say it did. Let's say somebody used my music in a video promoting Mitt Romney or Obama (or racism or anything else I disagree with on moral grounds) and I did not give them permission to use my music in this way. Do you think there is anything morally wrong with me issuing a DMCA notice to YouTube to have that video deleted? Thoughts...?

Even though I think I agree in principle now, I still have "skin in the IP game" as someone put it, and I still want to be able to have some control over my creations, because, well, I still see them as "mine" to an extent. And I certainly don't want my creations used for evil purposes.
 
Last edited:
OK, well I have to say, I think you guys have convinced me. All of you have made some really good points and I keep thinking this over and the more I do, the more what you're saying makes sense. (And I definitely agree with the Benson Principle, that is a perfect description of what the limitation on government use of force should be.)
Bravo! This is why RonPaulForums.com exists! It is always a pleasure to talk to an intellectually honest person!

I don't think abolishing patent and copyright laws will happen in our lifetimes. Too many entrenched interests there who I think will fight it with big money. (Big Pharma being one of the biggest, but also Hollywood, ASCAP, etc.) But maybe it's possible to get the escalation of the penalties to start going in the other direction.
It may happen faster if you started educating your friends.

So now I have somewhat of a moral quandary, and I think I know the answer but let me run this by you because I'd like your thoughts on it.

If I make music, and I find someone else using it without my permission, do you think it would be wrong of me to use a DMCA takedown notice, for example? I haven't ever had to before, and I have given many people on YouTube my permission to use my music in their videos for free, so I don't know if or when this might come up, but let's just say it did. Let's say somebody used my music in a video promoting Mitt Romney or Obama (or racism or anything else I disagree with on moral grounds) and I did not give them permission to use my music in this way. Do you think there is anything morally wrong with me issuing a DMCA notice to YouTube to have that video deleted? Thoughts...?
You can and should request take down, but I wouldn't use DMCA as it is a wicked and evil legislation.

Even though I think I agree in principle now, I still have "skin in the IP game" as someone put it, and I still want to be able to have some control over my creations, because, well, I still see them as "mine" to an extent. And I certainly don't want my creations used for evil purposes.
They are yours, and you should exert your influence in righteous ways that do not violate rights and property of others. Good luck and God bless you!
 
So I, as a full time musician, have no right to protect my own creation and I should hope that I can be as successful as U2 because some kids want to just copy my music instead of buy it? So, in your world, the fruit of my labor really belongs to the community to copy and distribute as each sees fit? Because of my ability, all of those who don't have that ability should be able to freely take my productivity and use it out of their own need? I believe it was Karl Marx who said "Art should be free".

I am mostly disturbed how many people here seem to think this is a good idea.
Nothing of the sort! You should protect your IP, but you have no moral right to violate the property of others to do it. As I said, copyrights and patents violate the rights and property of everyone else to give you your protection, and it is IMMORAL that way.
 
I would also like to add that in terms of copyright violations, it is not the government 'protecting your work by immoral force' as you put it. Most copyright violations are handled in the court system in front of a jury of one's peers or through a mutual agreement between the two parties. (settlement). The government isn't protecting your work through immoral force, but upholding the legal decision of the citizens of this country based on a jury's decision. The citizens, your peers, decided in the case it was your property to protect and you should be compensated for the theft of your property. The government is just protecting the judicial system where contract litigation is either a mutual agreement or enforced through jury.
You are wrong. Since YOU have no moral right to use FORCE upon your neighbor (and ultimately deadly force if he resists) to prevent him from making a copy of a copy of your music in his possession, if he made no contract with you, you cannot authorize the government, jury, or ANYONE ELSE to do it in your behalf, because you cannot delegate an authority YOU do not have. It is called the Benson Principle. Learn it. It is a true principle without which Liberty cannot exist. (And I assure you, you do not want Liberty gone because of your mistake! It is NOT in your best interest!)
 
You have the right to protect your creation in a number of ways. But it's never going to work perfectly. As I mentioned, even if your song is only heard in live venues or on totally copy-proof CDs, I can sit and write it out on paper and perform it myself if I'm so inclined. If you want to be as famous as U2, just selling records won't cut it. You have to do numerous worldwide tours, performing music that people actually want to hear. I don't like U2's arrogance regarding IP, but they do have a great business model in that they rely more on live performances than record sales.

Like in any other area of production, you can create all you want and still not profit if there's no demand.
Excellent! Thank you!
 
By definition thievery involves the expropriation of property (which is a theory to describe a moral philosophy and human interaction in a world of scarce resources) that one individual or group benefits by removing the ability of the original owner it's use, ownership, possession, etc.

Ergo, by definition you cannot steal an idea, recipe, arrangements, etc. You are not deprived of any property if I copy, reproduce, or otherwise make another of with the use of my own property (CD's, VCR, DVD, Computer, Brain, etc.). Indeed, IP deprives others of the use of their property (CD's, Paper, Brains, etc. etc.) that the author or originator has no right over or to.

Now, we haven't even delved into voluntary contractual agreements which are an entirely separate issue that as any contract only applies to the signers of and no EULA's do not constitute such agreements. State-IP is plain old monopoly grants which destroy economic incentive, productivity, and progress. Commerce would really shut down if folks didn't have 30+ year monopolies /snark /snark
Excellent! Thank you!
 
Fairness is subjective, and besides, it isn't like the creator of a product doesn't have any advantage. There is a massive advantage to being first to market. You become well known, start with a good reputation (as long as your product isn't a POS), etc. that mere copiers do not have. This is enough incentive in the first place to want to create something and trade it, never mind the fact that survival necessitates trade. You can keep your creation to yourself if you want, that is your right, but you have to ask yourself if it is really worth it...what are you gaining if you never trade it? You would rather make zero money instead of hundreds of thousands, or millions, or perhaps even more?

Now, I don't know a better system of JUSTICE (I could care less about 'fairness') than property rights, and property rights being well-defined is a very rigid moral philosophy. It is simply unjust and immoral for State-IP to exist. Life isn't fair, but life should be just. Is it fair I am not born with the mind of Einstein? Is it fair some people are born with natural talents that allow them to make millions and same people are born looking like the Cavemen dudes with little to no natural talents? Your argumentation would seem to necessitate, or at least, provide cover for force to be used to intervene against our natural rights of property and liberty.

I also have no objection for people getting paid when they trade, what I have a problem with is when they believe they have some entitlement to profit, or money, and use force to obtain it, which is what State-IP is. If you have an inferior product why should you have a right to monopoly profit just because you originated the idea? Do you think no one else would have ever come up with the idea you did? Now, every other single person in society is precluded from using this idea in any productive manner, and we all know what happens to prices when monopolies are introduced.

Also, just to answer your question why other folks get paid for the products of their work...perhaps because their work is scarce and thus economic (limited...). When something can be infinitely reproducible it's value becomes closer to zero, indeed, there would be no need for economics or property rights if we lived in a world of non-scarcity. This is the situation when it comes to the electronic world. Computers allow us to almost infinitely reproduce within it's world, and the costs to do so are a product of the scarce resources to create this world (e.g. Rare-Earth Elements, Metal, Silicon, etc.). The same goes with music. Ideas are infinitely reproducible. Why do you argue that people can own particular arrangements of musical notes, but not musical notes themselves? Surely someone, sometime had to invent, or discover this idea first, no? Furthermore, if I own something, it is not limited by time. Why is IP time limited if it is property? Why can I not pass this title down to my progeny? What would be the consequences if IP actually was property?

I suppose I'd have to pay to even speak. Just think for a second what that means for property rights and how contradictory IP is to property rights. IP is not property, never has been, never will be. It has no characteristics of property whatsoever.
Brilliant!
 
If something is "unique" then law of supply and demand says the value goes up, not down. This was the point I was trying to make.



No, I didn't misunderstand the premise. That's why I used a quantity of a million. If you have more supply, price goes down. I was trying to illustrate that identical widgets are not the same as unique ideas. A million of one doesn't equal a million of the other because it's "same thing" vs. "each is unique."



But saying it's an obvious absurdity, and/or saying or implying that there is no good reason for such a legal precedent, is an ad hoc argument. The reason IP laws exist is precisely because it IS possible to copy information (unlike a tangible good) and thereby deprive a creator of the ability to be compensated for the results of their work. When the results of your work can simply be copied, without IP rights, you can work your butt off and someone else can profit from it, or get the fruits of your labor for free without your consent, and to me that is an obviously absurd situation.

If your boss said to you on payday, "Well thanks for all your hard work, and by the way, we decided not to pay you for your efforts any more, but thanks, and see you tomorrow, keep up the good work!" Would you keep working there? I hope you wouldn't, because your work should be rewarded (in a free market system).

Now, the hearing a song on the radio example might get ridiculous. If someone says I can't sing a song I just heard on the radio for my own enjoyment, that's ridiculous. It isn't depriving anyone of any income opportunity, obviously. But--if I hear a song on the radio and now I sing that song to an audience and make money doing it, then I should pay a portion of that income to the person who wrote the song. Because, without their creation, I would not be making that money by performing my copy. I don't see anything sinister about that; it's common courtesy and common sense to me.



I agree, it is subjective, and some ideas have more value to some people than other ideas. But again, I was trying to explain my original point, that you cannot say intellectual property is worth zero simply because so much of it exists. Because each piece of it is unique. When you have only one of a unique thing, it has more value, not less.

Through copying something as many times as you want, then yes you can create a near infinite supply of that IP; it's no longer unique. That reduces it's value to zero. If that's what you were saying, then I agree. But that is why IP rights exist, because again, people should be able to profit from the results of their work. Without any concept of IP, then people whose work yields a valuable result that is intangible and able to be copied, may find themselves shortchanged for their work.

I don't see why people are willing to pay a painter to do work to paint their house, and they're willing to pay for the food they eat, and they will pay for a car, they will pay for a shirt or a new pair of shoes, they will pay for all the other products of someone's work, but they think musicians or authors or other creators should not get paid for their work. I don't understand why one person's work should be compensated while another person's shouldn't. If someone chooses to work for free, that is their decision, but they're the only one with the right to decide that, not me. If they want to make money on their creation, they should also have that choice. (Libertarianism is the concept that I don't own other people.)

There is a difference between a free market and anarchy. If you had two supermarkets next to one another, and either owner is free to walk into the other and take anything they want, without paying for it, and go back to their own store and then sell it for a profit, that is not a free market. That is anarchy. A free market does have to have some basic property rights in order to function. This applies equally to work that results in intangible valuable products too, not just work that results in tangible valuable products. That's why the concept of IP exists.
I'm an artist, and I can tell you that it is reasonable for me to expect a profit for work. Someone copying my work is no more "stealing" than me reciting a poem you just read to me. Your profit as an artist is related to how much labor you put out. If you produce 100 CDs, you are entitled to the profits from the sale of those CDs. Some kid copying your CDs doesn't interfere with your profit in any way. Just because you feel entitled to profit from other people using your work does not make it so. If you want to make a living in a creative field, adopt the philosophy of scholars-"publish or perish". That is, don't expect to be able to rest on your laurels and make royalties. Work for your money. Paint, perform, write, whatever it is you do. Human culture will be much richer for it.
 
If after first use contract with the printer/publisher your book is not good enough to elicit donations from grateful readers, than maybe you should not write for profit at all, because you are not good enough!

Whatever it is, it does not justify the immoral use of government force, which ultimately leads to censorship, destruction of liberty, and consequently to the destruction of the country itself. Too high a price to pay for one's fascination with copyrights, a.k.a. immoral use of government force, -- because it violates the Benson Principle. Do you see my point?

Thanks.

No, I don't see your point because it makes no sense. Why should someone who produces something be forced to rely on the charity of others for maintenance of their livelihood instead of enjoying the fruits of their labor in the market? This whole idea that everyone has a right to own a work I make without paying me, the producer for it, seems pretty collectivist/socialist to me. If you have no paid the producer (i.e. me) for my work, but take it anyway, then that is thievery. And while no one can own an idea, a book is NOT an idea. It is a physical work, produced by the labor of a writer or writers. You can hold it, feel it, smell it, see it, hear it on audio, and if you really want, taste it. It is the writer's physical property. To take that property without said writer's permission, either by consent or purchase, is morally wrong. You talk about the Benson Principle but I'm pretty sure President Benson believed the government had the moral authority to prevent thievery. In fact the protection of property is one of the three legitimate reasons he gave for the existence of government all together.

And obviously you have no idea how anything other than mass produced fiction works. Most of the important books, journals, scholarly papers, medical papers, scientific papers, works of art, literature, and science, are all niche works. They do not appeal to the masses, but only to their specific small groups. Yet shouldn't their work be protected so they can reap the just rewards for their works? That they should rely on donations instead of reaping the fruits of their labors seems immoral to me.
 
So? If I copy your piece of IP, I combined my labor with the materials and own the copies. I can do what I want with them. Even now it's possible for a talented woodworker (for example) to copy a chair and make a profit that the original designer won't get. So?

A book is not intellectual property. It is not an "Idea". It is an actual physical property. and if you take that property without paying for it, then it is stealing, a violation of my property rights no more wrong than if I walked into your house and took your television.
 
A book is not intellectual property. It is not an "Idea". It is an actual physical property. and if you take that property without paying for it, then it is stealing, a violation of my property rights no more wrong than if I walked into your house and took your television.

Do you strawman enough? Lol. No one said that someone depriving one the use of a scarce resource that they justly acquired is not stealing. Do you even read our arguments? From the looks of your response it seems you haven't. How about you address our argument's and my posts specifically?

Now, let's imagine someone bought your book from you, and then decided he wanted to sell reproduced works of the book. Under our current State-IP monopolization system he would be DEPRIVED the DISPOSITION of his property. It is a monopoly precisely for that reason that the State intervenes in the business of commerce to eliminate competition on the behalf of one individual or group. That is immoral, that is what we object to.
 
Do you strawman enough? Lol. No one said that someone depriving one the use of a scarce resource that they justly acquired is not stealing. Do you even read our arguments? From the looks of your response it seems you haven't. How about you address our argument's and my posts specifically?

Now, let's imagine someone bought your book from you, and then decided he wanted to sell reproduced works of the book. Under our current State-IP monopolization system he would be DEPRIVED the DISPOSITION of his property. It is a monopoly precisely for that reason that the State intervenes in the business of commerce to eliminate competition on the behalf of one individual or group. That is immoral, that is what we object to.

It is obvious to me you did not read any of my other posts either. Or the post my response was to.

If a person is making copies of someone elses work without their permission then it is thievery. When you pay for a book you pay for the right to own a copy of it, i.e. that specific copy of that work. If you want more copies, you have to pay for them. To take, or make, more copies without permission is to steal the profits the creator has a right to as the producer of said product. Now with your copy, the original you made, you have a right to enjoy, resale, or destroy that copy. But not to produce more unpaid for copies. It is not your right to steal.

Also it is not tyranny for the state to protect the property rights of the producer of said product. And why shouldn't I have a monopoly on the thing I created? I created it! Unless you buy it, it is mine! Just because I authorize someone else to act and sale it for me, and they put it on a store shelf does not mean it ceases to be mine. You have no right to it. And just because you bought a copy of it doesn't mean you have the right to reproduce it. you didn't buy the rights to the work, you bought the rights to own a copy of my work, not the work itself. This idea that I don't have a right to own what is my creation is collectivist/communistic bullcrap.
 
Last edited:
It is obvious to me you did not read any of my other posts either. Or the post my response was to.

If a person is making copies of someone elses work without their permission then it is thievery. When you pay for a book you pay for the right to own a copy of it, i.e. that specific copy of that work. If you want more copies, you have to pay for them. To take, or make, more copies without permission is to steal the profits the creator has a right to as the producer of said product. Now with your copy, the original you made, you have a right to enjoy, resale, or destroy that copy. But not to produce more unpaid for copies. It is not your right to steal.

You can't steal if the the person you are presupposing has been stolen from has not been deprived of any possession, ownership, or use of what is said to be stolen. In other words, using my own property to copy, emulate, reproduce, or otherwise make another of has not deprived you of the same of your own property. To say you own an idea or recipe is to say you own the bodies of every other individual in society who is now under threat of violence, precluded from the use of their faculties and property to make the same. In other words, a monopoly is created and enforced through the State.

If you are arguing for contractual IP, then the sell of my book I bought from you does not in any way bind the party I am selling to because he never agreed to your terms. Ergo, he has no obligation to abide by whatever contract was between you and who you sold it to (me). In other words, he is free to reproduce the work as much as he wants limited only by his ownership of scarce resources (e.g. computer, paper, etc.).

You are arguing for artificial rents backed by violent monopolization through the State. Everything antithetical to liberty and property rights. Never mind the fact no one has the right to profit, only the right of profit, which means, you can trade your property titles for more than what you paid to obtain them in the first place. In other words, individuals are free to transact in whatever mutually agreed upon prices they decide fit their subjective valuations. You have no authority to deprive my disposition of property. In any event, I've said before that the proponents of IP argue for a rentership society where we are all serfs. If you were logically consistent then you would apply the same principles of property to IP, but you don't because even ardent IP proponents realize what that means and how absurd and tyrannical it would be and is.

You should be paying royalties for even speaking, to the folks who invented the English Language. How free you would be!
 
Last edited:
You can't steal if the the person you are presupposing has been stolen from has not been deprived of any possession, ownership, or use of what is said to be stolen. In other words, using my own property to copy, emulate, reproduce, or otherwise make another of has not deprived you of the same of your own property. To say you own an idea or recipe is to say you own the bodies of every other individual in society who is now under threat of violence, precluded from the use of their faculties and property to make the same. In other words, a monopoly is created and enforced through the State.

If you are arguing for contractual IP, then the sell of my book I bought from you does not in any way bind the party I am selling to because he never agreed to your terms. Ergo, he has no obligation to abide by whatever contract was between you and who you sold it to (me). In other words, he is free to reproduce the work as much as he wants limited only by his ownership of scarce resources (e.g. computer, paper, etc.).

You are arguing for artificial rents backed by violent monopolization through the State. Everything antithetical to liberty and property rights. Never mind the fact no one has the right to profit, only the right of profit, which means, you can trade your property titles for more than what you paid to obtain them in the first place. In other words, individuals are free to transact in whatever mutually agreed upon prices they decide fit their subjective valuations. You have no authority to deprive my disposition of property. In any event, I've said before that the proponents of IP argue for a rentership society where we are all serfs. If you were logically consistent then you would apply the same principles of property to IP, but you don't because even ardent IP proponents realize what that means and how absurd and tyrannical it would be and is.

You should be paying royalties for even speaking, to the folks who invented the English Language. How free you would be!

When you buy a book you buy that copy of that book. You do not buy the entirety of the work itself. You do not buy the right to that work. You simply buy a copy of it. What you do with that copy is up to you, as long as you do not try and steal that work by making copies of the book. It has nothing to do with owning an idea. A book, a story, is a specific work. You do not buy the right to own my work when you buy a copy of my book. You buy the right to own a copy. Nothing more. To say you can do whatever you want in reproduction of my work is false. Because you do not own my work, but merely a copy of it, you do not have the right to do with it as you please in the area of reproduction form the book you bought. Now if you want to own the full rights to my work, well contact me and I might sale that to you for a price. But the assumption that you automatically own the rights to my work simply because you bought a copy is collectivist garbage. It is not capitalism. It is not part of the contract of buying a work.

The state is monopolizing nothing. I am. It is mine. Do you think you have a right to my work? Because if you do then I'm not the one arguing for the rape of property rights here. And if you don't believe that, then you have no just claim to the entirety of my work simply because you buy a copy of it. Unless you specifically and contractually purchase from me all rights to my property then you don't own them, and therefore cannot reproduce my work as if it were your right to do so.

I cannot stop you from reading, preserving, or destroying your copy. That is true. It is yours. But you cannot make copies of it and distribute those because you do not own the rights to the original work. You merely own a copy of said work. It is my property. For you to steal my work by making immoral copies and distributing them is well immoral. It is the antithesis of free market capitalism which says I have a right of ownership to my work and a right to sale it and try and make a profit from it. The only way you can gain the right of ownership (i.e. the right of production and reproduction) is by buying that right form me. You do not do so when you buy a copy of my work. You only do so when you specifically buy those rights from me.
 
When you buy a book you buy that copy of that book. You do not buy the entirety of the work itself. You do not buy the right to that work. You simply buy a copy of it. What you do with that copy is up to you, as long as you do not try and steal that work by making copies of the book. It has nothing to do with owning an idea. A book, a story, is a specific work. You do not buy the right to own my work when you buy a copy of my book. You buy the right to own a copy. Nothing more. To say you can do whatever you want in reproduction of my work is false. Because you do not own my work, but merely a copy of it, you do not have the right to do with it as you please in the area of reproduction form the book you bought. Now if you want to own the full rights to my work, well contact me and I might sale that to you for a price. But the assumption that you automatically own the rights to my work simply because you bought a copy is collectivist garbage. It is not capitalism. It is not part of the contract of buying a work.

The state is monopolizing nothing. I am. It is mine. Do you think you have a right to my work? Because if you do then I'm not the one arguing for the rape of property rights here. And if you don't believe that, then you have no just claim to the entirety of my work simply because you buy a copy of it. Unless you specifically and contractually purchase from me all rights to my property then you don't own them, and therefore cannot reproduce my work as if it were your right to do so.

I cannot stop you from reading, preserving, or destroying your copy. That is true. It is yours. But you cannot make copies of it and distribute those because you do not own the rights to the original work. You merely own a copy of said work. It is my property. For you to steal my work by making immoral copies and distributing them is well immoral. It is the antithesis of free market capitalism which says I have a right of ownership to my work and a right to sale it and try and make a profit from it. The only way you can gain the right of ownership (i.e. the right of production and reproduction) is by buying that right form me. You do not do so when you buy a copy of my work. You only do so when you specifically buy those rights from me.

I can tell you really haven't thought this one through considering you repeated yourself fifteen times and said the same things over and over. You could have condensed this entire post to one or two sentences, which again, never even addressed any points I made, wherein I specifically addressed yours. You more than likely even have no understanding of the history of IP, and you failed to produce the same principles of property to IP. In other words, estate and title, never mind the fact if IP is property why is it time-limited? You cannot own any specific arrangement of English language, and if you did, then you would own the faculties of every individual who ever exercised their own self-propriety (e.g. speech).

There's that great line: Has anyone ever told you, you have a great deal of trouble coming to the point? You say that I cannot dispose of the good I've bought from you in such a manner as my choosing. Can you say then, I own what I have purchased?

No one has yet still addressed independent or simultaneous discovery. Anyways, carry on. I've no more use of this discussion because really...you are just talking to yourself.
 
No, I don't see your point because it makes no sense. Why should someone who produces something be forced to rely on the charity of others for maintenance of their livelihood instead of enjoying the fruits of their labor in the market?
Most of IP can be benefited by through contracts of first use. Some IP can be benefited from every time, like software that requires a paid key to work. And there are ways to benefit by IP without violating the rights and property of others. Some IP, like books, though still having the benefit of a contract of first use, may rely more on donations than other forms of IP, because of the nature of the medium. Is it fair? It is more fair than immoral use of government force that no one could have delegated to it. It is more fair than the destruction of Liberty and of the society itself. Is it fair that the parents must rely on good will of their children to make something of their lives? Yes. Because if you deny them freedom of choice you deny the purpose of existence. My point is that YOU do not want the society you are arguing for, because you will not like it. It leads to immoral use of government force, then to destruction of Liberty, and then to the destruction of the society itself. When this happens, YOU will not like it. Therefore, you must stand upon a true principle, or forever slide into tyranny and destruction.

This whole idea that everyone has a right to own a work I make without paying me, the producer for it, seems pretty collectivist/socialist to me. If you have no paid the producer (i.e. me) for my work, but take it anyway, then that is thievery.
No one has "taken it away!" You still have it. Do you get it? If you did not protect yourself with a contract of the first use, it is your fault, just as if you made a beautiful vase for sale and then dropped and broke it just before the buyer showed up. Everyone has a right to own, and indeed does own, the information in their possession, just as much as they own their minds, their computers, their paper, their cameras, etc. And if they made no contract with you, you cannot force them not to use it. And since you have no moral right to use such force, neither does the government, because the only legitimate authority it has is what you delegated to it, and you cannot delegate an authority YOU do not have. Incidentally, immoral use of government force seems pretty collectivist/socialist to me. That’s what socialism and collectivism are by definition.

And while no one can own an idea, a book is NOT an idea. It is a physical work, produced by the labor of a writer or writers. You can hold it, feel it, smell it, see it, hear it on audio, and if you really want, taste it. It is the writer's physical property. To take that property without said writer's permission, either by consent or purchase, is morally wrong.
You are contradicting yourself.

First of all, you can own and idea, just as much as you can own your mind. And remember, to know an idea IS to own it, just as much as you own your mind.

Secondly, you are talking about a tangible embodiment of an idea, i.e. a tangible copy of a book. If someone stall a copy of a book from you, you have a case: they removed property from your possession. If they made a copy of it without REMOVING property from your possession, and made no contract with you, than you cannot claim a theft of property. You may claim a loss of sales opportunity, but not theft of your property. And even though they have diminished your sales opportunity you have no moral right to use force upon them, because they did not violate your property and made no contract with you, and they have a right to do with their own as they please. It might be immoral on their part, but you cannot use force against them and neither does the government because of the Benson Principle. Again: not everything that is immoral is right to forbid by government force, and not everything that is morally right is right to force to perform. What is the principle here? The Benson Principle. If you have no moral right to use force upon your neighbor (and deadly force if he resists), neither does the government. You have no right to use such force. Therefore neither does the government. Get it?

You talk about the Benson Principle but I'm pretty sure President Benson believed the government had the moral authority to prevent thievery. In fact the protection of property is one of the three legitimate reasons he gave for the existence of government all together.
For thievery to occur property must be REMOVED from your possession. NOTHING has been removed from your possession, therefore no thievery has occurred. An opportunity for sale has been removed from you, but you have no right to use force upon them because they did NOT violate your property and made no contract with you. It might be immoral, but not enforceable by government force. (Benson Principle).

You And obviously you have no idea how anything other than mass produced fiction works. Most of the important books, journals, scholarly papers, medical papers, scientific papers, works of art, literature, and science, are all niche works. They do not appeal to the masses, but only to their specific small groups. Yet shouldn't their work be protected so they can reap the just rewards for their works? That they should rely on donations instead of reaping the fruits of their labors seems immoral to me.
They can secure rewards to themselves through contracts of first use with the publisher, and yes, they can ask for donations too. Whatever seems immoral to you (it may or may not be), ask yourself, Do I, INDIVIDUALLY, have a moral right to use force upon my neighbor, and lethal force if he resists, to force him to do or not to do something? If the answer is No, neither does the government, because YOU cannot delegate an authority you do not have. Get it?
 
Last edited:
You can't steal if the the person you are presupposing has been stolen from has not been deprived of any possession, ownership, or use of what is said to be stolen. In other words, using my own property to copy, emulate, reproduce, or otherwise make another of has not deprived you of the same of your own property. To say you own an idea or recipe is to say you own the bodies of every other individual in society who is now under threat of violence, precluded from the use of their faculties and property to make the same. In other words, a monopoly is created and enforced through the State.

If you are arguing for contractual IP, then the sell of my book I bought from you does not in any way bind the party I am selling to because he never agreed to your terms. Ergo, he has no obligation to abide by whatever contract was between you and who you sold it to (me). In other words, he is free to reproduce the work as much as he wants limited only by his ownership of scarce resources (e.g. computer, paper, etc.).

You are arguing for artificial rents backed by violent monopolization through the State. Everything antithetical to liberty and property rights. Never mind the fact no one has the right to profit, only the right of profit, which means, you can trade your property titles for more than what you paid to obtain them in the first place. In other words, individuals are free to transact in whatever mutually agreed upon prices they decide fit their subjective valuations. You have no authority to deprive my disposition of property. In any event, I've said before that the proponents of IP argue for a rentership society where we are all serfs. If you were logically consistent then you would apply the same principles of property to IP, but you don't because even ardent IP proponents realize what that means and how absurd and tyrannical it would be and is.

You should be paying royalties for even speaking, to the folks who invented the English Language. How free you would be!
Brilliant!
 
When you buy a book you buy that copy of that book. You do not buy the entirety of the work itself.
That is false. The “work” here is information. To own a copy of information is to own the information. This is an undeniable fact.

You do not buy the right to that work.
That depends on whether or not I made a contract with you that limits my rights. If I made no contract with you, I can do whatever I want with that information because it is mine just as much as I own my mind, my paper, etc, and you have no right to use force against me, because I did not violate your property and made no contract with you.

You simply buy a copy of it. What you do with that copy is up to you, as long as you do not try and steal that work by making copies of the book.
To own a copy of information is to own the information. You cannot steal information, unless you destroy the copy in someone else’s possession. You can “steal” a sales opportunity, but you have no moral right to use force against that, and therefore, neither does the government.

It has nothing to do with owning an idea. A book, a story, is a specific work.
You seem to make distinction between concept of “idea” and “information.” The “work” you referring to is information. There is no distinction, logically or functionally, between “idea” and “work” in this context,— it is all information. A fundamental property of information is that to have it IS to own it, just as much as you own your mind, your paper, etc.

You do not buy the right to own my work when you buy a copy of my book. You buy the right to own a copy. Nothing more.
Repeating it does not make it true.

To own a copy of information is to own the information, just as much as you own your mind, paper, etc.

But the assumption that you automatically own the rights to my work simply because you bought a copy is collectivist garbage. It is not capitalism.
Immoral use of government force is collectivist garbage. It is not free market capitalism.

It is not part of the contract of buying a work.
What contract? There was NO contract. That is the whole point. If there was a contract you would be right, but there was NO CONTRACT.

The state is monopolizing nothing. I am. It is mine.
You have no monopoly right over the property of others. The information in your possession is your property, but the information in their possession, even if it is the same information, is THERE property, just as much as they own their minds, their papers, etc. You have no right to use force against their property, therefore there is no monopoly, only perhaps aggression on your part which can (and should) be met with force.

Do you think you have a right to my work?
Repeating? Ok, lets repeat.

If “work” is information, then if I have it in my possession, I own it, just as much as I own my mind, etc. And if I came into the possession of it without violating (removing or altering) your property and made no contract with you, you have no moral right to use force upon me. It may or may not be immoral of me to use that information contrary to your wishes, but it is IMMORAL for you to use force against me.

you have no just claim to the entirety of my work simply because you buy a copy of it.
You do not understand the properties of information. To have a copy of it is to have ALL of it. To pretend otherwise is foolish, and contradicts observable reality. This is a very dangerous and irrational delusion that denies the facts and reality of what information is. Therefore, unsurprisingly, you arrive at wrong conclusions.

Unless you specifically and contractually purchase from me all rights to my property then you don't own them,
This is what you don’t seem to understand: The information in your possession is YOUR property. The information in MY possession is my property (even if it is the same information). I own it just as much as I own my mind. There is nothing you can do about it, and if I made no contract with you, and did not violate your property, you have no right to use force against me. To possess information IS to own it, just as much as you own your mind, your papers, your camera etc. This is the nature of information. You denying the very nature of the thing you are arguing about! No wonder your conclusions are wrong and self-contradictory!

I cannot stop you from reading, preserving, or destroying your copy. That is true. It is yours. But you cannot make copies of it and distribute those because you do not own the rights to the original work. You merely own a copy of said work.
To own a copy of information, is to own the information. This is the very NATURE of information. To deny this FACT is irrational and foolish.

It is my property.
Yes it is. It is your property. But the moment I have a copy of it, it becomes MY property as well, just as much as I own my mind, my paper, my tape recorder, etc. I own it independently of you, and without violating your property. You still have yours perfectly intact. This is the nature of information. I may have deprived you of a sales opportunity by possessing the information, and it might or might not be immoral, but you have no MORAL right to use force against me, because I did not violate your property and I made no contract with you.

For you to steal my work by making immoral copies and distributing them is well immoral.
Not everything that is immoral is right to forbid by government force. Learn that much. This is key to the survival of Liberty and of society itself. It is actually IMMORAL to do what you are proposing, because it requires an immoral use of government force. Therefore, it violates the rights and property of others and leads to destruction of Liberty, and consequently, to the destruction of the society itself.

It is the antithesis of free market capitalism
Immoral use of government force is the antithesis of free market capitalism.

The only way you can gain the right of ownership (i.e. the right of production and reproduction) is by buying that right form me.
It is only true if you can keep a secret and secure from me a contract of first use. Otherwise it is simply not true.

You do not do so when you buy a copy of my work.
To own a copy of information IS to own the information. This is the very nature of information. To deny it is to deny reality.
 
Last edited:
Quick Summary of Correct Principles of IP


On intellectual property:

This is a very important subject directly connected to the survival and prosperity of this nation, because it is directly connected to Liberty (without which any nation will inevitably self-destruct), which is directly connected to free speech, especially on the internet.

Here are the main points:

Intellectual property has a few major misconceptions in our society:

1) “Information can be stolen even though the author still has his copy.”

That is false because to steal something you must deprive the owner of the use of the thing. To violate a property you must either:

a) alter it,

b) remove it from the possession of the owner, or

c) materially endanger a) or b)


None of this takes place, when information is copied. What can be “stolen” is perhaps i) a secret, or ii) the ability to profit by having exclusive/controlled access to the information. Neither one of these, however, constitute a violation of the authors property if neither (a), (b), nor (c) occurred with regards to the author’s tangible and intellectual property.

The natural reality of any and all information is this:

TO HAVE INFORMATION IS TO OWN IT, just as much as you own your mind, your papers or you computer, etc.

The author owns it, but so does anyone who has a copy of the information. The author owns HIS copy, and the copier owns HIS copy. They are separate copies, and constitute TWO separate instances of intellectual property, even if it is the exact copy of the other. They are TWO properties, not one. This is the very nature of information. Each one who has a copy owns it just as much as he owns the medium on which it is recorded; he owns the information just as much as he owns his mind, his papers, his camera, or his computer.

TO HAVE IT IS TO OWN IT.

2) “The creator of information cannot profit by his work without government forced monopoly on the use of the information he created.”

That is false, because there are multiple ways for the author to profit by his work without the immoral use of government force to impose a monopoly. They are (in part):

a) Secure a contract of first use with a publisher, performer or manufacturer. Example: a movies studio may contract with a theater chain to show their movie first, etc.

b) In case of an invention, keep the secret as long as you can and be first to market and thus gain economic advantage. (Generally it buys the inventor 6 month to 2 years of natural monopoly, before others can figure out how it was done and swing into production).

c) In case of software, a paid key may be required to unlock the code.

d) In case of a performer use your recordings as an advertisement for your live performances. Most famous artists make most of their money in live performances. People come to see them in concert even though they already own all of their CD’s. Also original paintings may cost millions, even though photographic copies of them are readily available for free. etc.

e) Reap the benefits of using it yourself.

f) Rely on donations of grateful users. For example, even if Stephanie Myers did not have a contract of first use with her publisher (which she does have), but even if she didn’t, most of her grateful fans would have gladly donated $1 each or more if she asked for it, which would probably amount to millions of dollars!


The point here is that such a government monopoly is immoral, because no author has a moral right to use FORCE upon his neighbors to prevent them from using information in their possession, even if it is the exact copy of the information he created. And since he has no moral right to use such violence, he cannot delegate it to the government to do it in his behalf.

3) “The author worked hard to create the information, he deserves remuneration if other people use it, and it will be immoral if they use it without compensating him, therefore force can be used to extract the payment.”

First of all, the author can and should benefit by his work. The proper ways to do so without violating the rights and property of others are listed in section (2).

Secondly, and this is key: Not everything that is immoral is right to forbid by government force, and not everything that is morally right is right to FORCE to perform. Giving money to the poor if you can is certainly morally right and good, but it is WRONG to take this money by force, for that would be theft and plunder. It maybe morally right and desirable to give flowers to one’s mother or wife on her birthday, but it is wrong to force such performance by violence. Also it may be morally bad to waste ones talents and to live below ones abilities, but it is WRONG to use violence against such a person, as long as he does not violate the property of others. What is the principle here? I call it The Benson Principle which is also equivalent to the Second Fundamental Principle of Liberty: If you INDIVIDUALLY have no moral right to use FORCE upon your neighbor or to violate his property, you cannot delegate such violence to any third party, including government. If you have no right to violate your neighbor’s property, you cannot rightly ask the government to do it for you either.

4) “Implied contracts, i.e. contracts that do not require an explicit agreement, exist all over in the society; therefore copyrights are implied contracts, and thus can be enforced by government.”

That is false, because by their nature, implied contracts, i.e. contracts that do not have an explicit agreement from all the parties involved, can only be properly imposed upon things that you own, and nothing else. This is because with regards to YOUR own property you do not need an agreement from anyone as to what to do with it. Thus if you own a parking lot you can post a sign “No parking after 10 pm” and you have a right to enforce it without the car owner’s explicit agreement, because you OWN the lot, and you can impose any rules you want UPON IT, and a car owner would be violating YOUR property if he did not use the property as you prescribed. However, if you posted a sign saying: “No parking after 10 pm, but if you do, it will signify that you agree that I own your house, and that you are my slave for 50 years,” and someone leaves his car on your lot after 10pm, can you take his house and make him a slave for 50 years? No! Why? Because you do not own either him nor his house, therefore for such a contract to be binding you have to have an EXPLICIT agreement from him before you can enforce it. Without an explicit agreement, the best you can do is to tow his car, and perhaps charge a fee for your trouble to offset/rectify the violation of your property, and nothing more. Implied contracts do not require explicit agreements precisely because they apply only to the things you own and nothing else.

Copyrights cannot be enforced as an implied contract because you do not own the people who copy your work. You do not own their minds, you do not own their copy machines, you do not own their papers or their computers. Therefore, you cannot impose an implied contract upon these things because you have exactly zero authority/ownership over them. You can only impose an implied contract upon your copy of the information and limit or condition access to IT, because you own THAT COPY; but you have no right or say over the copies owned by others. This is the nature of information. To deny this is to deny reality and to violate both intellectual and tangible property of others, because they own that information no less than you, the author, do, and no less than they own their minds, their papers or their computers. That’s what information is: TO HAVE IT IS TO OWN IT.



This is a brief summary of correct principles of IP.
 
Last edited:
Modified the following paragraphs:

The fundamental principle of Intellectual Property is this:

To possess information IS to own it,
because, by its very nature, every copy of information is a separate intellectual property, that is independently owned by each one who has it, nor less than he owns his mind, his body, or the medium upon which the information is recorded.

This is the very nature of information that can be easily verified by simple observation.
 
Back
Top