Confronting Beltway Libertarianism and the Invasion of Left-Libertarians

[Krzysztof Lesiak]

In my opinion, the real divide in libertarianism is not anarchism versus minarchism, but rather paleolibertarianism versus leftist-libertarianism.

Paleolibertarianism might be on life support in the US (unfortunately Lew Rockwell has abondoned this label, though he and Tom Woods are arguably two of the last bations of paleolibertarianism in the US), but it's thriving in places like Poland (Partia KORWiN, Janusz Korwin Mikke) and Czech Republic (Svobodni). Hopefully, America will move in the direction of Hans Herman Hoppe rather than the "new and improved" Jeffrey Tucker.

 

[Occam's Banana]

Paleolibertarianism might be on life support in the US (unfortunately Lew Rockwell has abondoned this label, though he and Tom Woods are arguably two of the last bations of paleolibertarianism in the US) [...]

What does Tom Woods have to do with paleo-libertarianism - let alone being a "bastion" of such?

I know that he has been critical of left- (or "thick") libertarianism, but that does not make one "paleo" ...

 

[undergroundrr]

In my opinion, the real divide in libertarianism is not anarchism versus minarchism, but rather paleolibertarianism versus leftist-libertarianism.

Paleolibertarianism might be on life support in the US (unfortunately Lew Rockwell has abondoned this label, though he and Tom Woods are arguably two of the last bations of paleolibertarianism in the US), but it's thriving in places like Poland (Partia KORWiN, Janusz Korwin Mikke) and Czech Republic (Svobodni). Hopefully, America will move in the direction of Hans Herman Hoppe rather than the "new and improved" Jeffrey Tucker.

It seems there will always be a divide in libertarianism that adherents see as utterly polarizing.

The left-libertarians are thoughtfully critical and maybe snarky about areas of paleo doctrine with which they differ. Paleos just tend to tell anybody they perceive as being tainted by the left to eat lead. Regardless, as a result there's no coherent liberty movement and probably can never be. At this point, I'm very frustrated with the FOAD aspect of paleo-libertarianism, although I adhere more to its precepts. I remember back when Lew Rockwell used to have thoughtful discussions with Naomi Wolf and Glenn Greenwald.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Half the liberty movement dumped Rand before the first vote was cast because they hate Mexicans and love protectionism...

Half the movement's public figures did the same...

White nationalists have totally infiltrated the online libertarian community...

They troll us daily on RPF, which is now a de facto Trump fan site...

...but it's Gary Johnson and the left-libertarians who are damaging the liberty movement.

 

[RJ Liberty]

Half the liberty movement dumped Rand before the first vote was cast because they hate Mexicans and love protectionism...

Half the movement's public figures did the same...

White nationalists have totally infiltrated the online libertarian community...

They troll us daily on RPF, which is now a de facto Trump fan site...

...but it's Gary Johnson and the left-libertarians who are damaging the liberty movement.

Yep. How quickly people forget. The wise Ron Paul warned us against voting for candidates who propose building walls.

Ron Paul: How practical do you think this would be to round up 15 million people without any consideration for due process?


Daniel McAdams: You’d essentially need a police state because you’d practically have to be going to go door to door almost, because they don’t keep track of these people.


Ron Paul: I think it’s impossible.

​

Daniel McAdams: When we worked on immigration in your office, you were generally friendly with people who wanted some controls on the border. But we ran into terrible troubles with the extreme on [the conservative] side which wanted an authoritarian state here. They wanted "E-Verify" which means every American would have to prove he has a right to work in his own country. And then there's the wall they want.


Ron Paul: You’ll need a really efficient wall and a coast guard that goes up and down the coast blowing boats out of the water…The idea of building walls around the country, I think it’s a joke. I could never take a position that we need more barbed wire to solve this problem.

​

 

[Natural Citizen]

Half the liberty movement dumped Rand before the first vote was cast because they hate Mexicans and love protectionism...

Half the movement's public figures did the same...

White nationalists have totally infiltrated the online libertarian community...

They troll us daily on RPF, which is now a de facto Trump fan site...

...but it's Gary Johnson and the left-libertarians who are damaging the liberty movement.

Absolutely, it's Gary Johnson and the left-libertarians who are damaging the liberty movement. They're the only ones organizing against its fundamental principles in its name. Never in a million years did I ever think that we'd see people who call themselves liberty lovers actively organizing for a leader who said that it would be his contention to send men from the government with guns to force Individuals to relinquish their right to property (Individual Liberty's principal support, btw) under the banner of "Liberty", no less. Never in a million years did I ever think we'd have libert lovers organizing for a leader who's open claim is that he'd consider dsigning off on a patently illegal transfer of power from the people to the President solely. But here we are. Hollllyyyy sht. Used to be Liberty meant just the opposite until the Johnson leftists chimed in. No the leftists within it are trying to redifine to a more culturally Marxist (and in some cases, patently communist) set of principles.

How's your Monarchy is the best form of government thread going, btw? Have you managed to sell the idea of Kings and servitude to anyone yet around here yet? Heh. I actually thought about you when I added that first quote in my sig line today.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

In order to co-opt a movement, one must discredit its founders; make the movement rootless so that its stated goals ("liberty") can be subtly redefined in such a way that they eventually come to mean the exact opposite of what they originally meant, without anyone noticing the change. Ron's legacy is an obstacle to the white nationalists currently co-opting the liberty movement. Rand they've openly slandered, labelled a "cuck," insulted as a loser, and already effectively marginalized. Doing the same to Ron is much more difficult; they have to tip-toe around the issue, since Ron's still extraordinarily beloved as a personality even by those who have totally rejected (or more likely never really understood) his ideology. So, instead of attacking him directly, they just slowly remove him from the conversation, start implying that he's no longer relevant, that his was the old liberty, but times have changed and now we need a new liberty, etc. Given enough time, people will forget why they loved Ron and he too will become an object of ridicule. And then they'll have won and the liberty movement as we know it will end.

I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's been heading that way for quite some time.

On the bright side, Trump's impending defeat should knock them down a peg or two.

 

[Natural Citizen]

In order to co-opt a movement, one must discredit its founders; make the movement rootless so that its stated goals ("liberty") can be subtly redefined in such a way that they eventually come to mean the exact opposite of what they originally meant, without anyone noticing the change.

Which is exactly what Johnsons positions do. Thank You.

Johnsons openly admitted contention is one that patently rejects the concept of Individual fully because it's an open rejectin of Individual Liberty's principal support for the right to Life and Liberty itself. Actyually, it's a patently communist principle. Buy, hey, who's counting, right? Yaaaaaaay

Liberty

.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

This whole threads calls to mind the old dictum:

Deny Everything, Admit Nothing, Make Counter-Accusations

 

[Natural Citizen]

This whole threads calls to mind the old dictum

I refer to it as calling a spade a spade. Saves time.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

The liberty movement doesn't need to be co-opted by anyone; it was never politically effective in the first place. Libertarians have a chronic misunderstanding of democracy and have no idea how to sell libertarianism or how to manipulate the masses (and yes, that is necessary in a demotic state). I've seen so many libertarians who talk about the necessity of having good arguments and convincing people through evidence and logic. That's fine in a formal debate but completely useless in politics.

Libertarianism needs a heavy dose of realpolitik, but the lessons from Rand's 2016 run have yet to sink in. Maybe they never will.

 

[Natural Citizen]

We need the principles and moral foundation in tact. I dont give a damn about mainstream politics. Policy doesn't define Liberty anyway. Fundamental principles do. And that's what is primarily at the receiving end of aggression. And (L)ibertarians making libertarianism political fodder is exactly how it's happening.

 

[The Rebel Poet]

In order to co-opt a movement, one must discredit its founders; make the movement rootless so that its stated goals ("liberty") can be subtly redefined in such a way that they eventually come to mean the exact opposite of what they originally meant, without anyone noticing the change. Ron's legacy is an obstacle to the white nationalists currently co-opting the liberty movement. Rand they've openly slandered, labelled a "cuck," insulted as a loser, and already effectively marginalized. Doing the same to Ron is much more difficult; they have to tip-toe around the issue, since Ron's still extraordinarily beloved as a personality even by those who have totally rejected (or more likely never really understood) his ideology. So, instead of attacking him directly, they just slowly remove him from the conversation, start implying that he's no longer relevant, that his was the old liberty, but times have changed and now we need a new liberty, etc. Given enough time, people will forget why they loved Ron and he too will become an object of ridicule. And then they'll have won and the liberty movement as we know it will end.

I'm not saying that's what will happen, but it's been heading that way for quite some time.

On the bright side, Trump's impending defeat should knock them down a peg or two.

Well said. But I must spread some around.

 

[presence]

I think its unfortunate that the term "left libertarian" is being used to describe pro pot, pro civil rights "johnsonism".

The classical left/right divide in libertarian economic theory is over whether property depends upon "life title" (Mises/Hayek ancap-propertarian) or "occupancy and use" (Proudhan/Tucker individualism-mutualism).

To me the distinction between what is private and what is common-usafruct is a much more sublime and noteworthy element of libertarian theory.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Libertarians have a chronic misunderstanding of democracy and have no idea how to sell libertarianism or how to manipulate the masses (and yes, that is necessary in a demotic state). I've seen so many libertarians who talk about the necessity of having good arguments and convincing people through evidence and logic. That's fine in a formal debate but completely useless in politics.

That's very true, but I hope you're not implying that Trump's candidacy is the model for libertarian realpolitik.

He's manipulating the masses, to be sure, but not for the purpose of advancing liberty.

We don't need any old demagogue, we need a libertarian demagogue.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

Which is exactly what Johnsons positions do. Thank You.

Johnsons openly admitted contention is one that patently rejects the concept of Individual fully because it's an open rejectin of Individual Liberty's principal support for the right to Life and Liberty itself. Actyually, it's a patently communist principle. Buy, hey, who's counting, right? Yaaaaaaay

Liberty

.

'You must spread more rep before you can -rep NC again.'

 

[Natural Citizen]

'You must spread more rep before you can -rep NC again.'

That's okay. I gots way more ammo than you do. Way more. I'll just neg you back. Heh. Besides, I probably get about a dozen plus reps for every one of you loons' negs on a single post. True story.

I can drop your rep bar like a mofo, homeboy. And in no time at all. And even if your boys try to recover your rep, they still won't overcome the power of my neg. So think things through. Either way, it won't affect my day in any way.

Thing is, man, that people who go looking for fights are rarely ever as dangerous as those who are actually ready for one. So think about that. It's good advice.

But if you want a rep battle, I'll have one with you. It'll be a hoot.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

That's okay. I gots way more ammo than you do. Way more. I'll just neg you back. Heh. Besides, I probably get about a dozen plus reps for every one of you loons' negs on a single post. True story.

I can drop your rep bar like a mofo, homeboy. And in no time at all. So think things through. Either way, it won't affect my day in any way.

<--- Gives no fucks. What r3v said was absolute truth. The question I am trying to figure out is whether you are intentionally part of the group trying to undermine Ron or if you're just to ------ to realize what is going on.

 

[Natural Citizen]

<--- Gives no $#@!s. What r3v said was absolute truth. The question I am trying to figure out is whether you are intentionally part of the group trying to undermine Ron or if you're just to ------ to realize what is going on.

Rev's a Monarchist. He openly organizes for the concept of Kings and servitude. This is patently anti-Individual Liberty. And he openly rejects The Natural Law that is Individual Liberty's foundation for moral code and establishes its fundamental principles for proper Man-to-Man/Government-to-Man relations.

Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0

Originally Posted by misterx

our rights are not derived from God...

I agree

Monarchy Is the Best Form of Government - r3volution 3.0

Fuck r3volution 3.0 and the stalking horse he rode in on. And I'll tell him that to his face.


The first quote in my sig-line is good reading. It's good reading because it's patently true.



Also. Since you had the stones to mention the statesman...




I'm not even going to bother posting a video of Ron's thoughts on private property being the principal support for Life and Liberty.


End of the day. I'm rather confident that Me and Ron are precisely on the same page.

 

[undergroundrr]

Rev's a Monarchist.

Apparently you haven't read Hoppe. Hoppe is a GREAT libertarian thinker.