Common anti-palestinian arguments

[otherone]

never did a gig for a more respectful bunch of family oriented and dedicated folks.
Rev9

+rep.
Your experience is no match for others' willful ignorance.



Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.
Schopenhauer

 

[JuicyG]

I contract to an Egyptian Muslim. Yer full of shit. There is none of the venom you describe in his comportment. He has no animosity to Israel and neither does his Construction Engineer who is Iranian. His secretary is Jewish.

Rev9

As I was saying earlier, there are some moderates there in Egypt, they form a small minority. And even these kind and friendly moderates believe some extreme stuff as I`ve said earlier. My Egyptian friend is an educated intellectual and investor. The person you do business with seems to be in same category and he`s probably a moderate, supporting the egyptian liberals and not the Muslim Brotherhood which took control of the parliament in a landslide election.

The majority of Egyptians however are pretty much folks doing stuff like this:

http://www.compassdirect.org/english/country/egypt/69546
http://cifwatch.com/2011/05/08/muslim-extremists-burn-down-another-coptic-christian-church-in-egypt/

Kill all the Christians,’ local imam tells villagers.
CAIRO, March 8 (CDN) — A Muslim mob in a village south of Cairo last weekend attacked a church building and burned it down, almost killing the parish priest after an imam issued a call to “Kill all the Christians,” according to local sources.


The attack started on Friday evening (March 4) in the village of Sool, located in the city of Helwan 35 kilometers (22 miles) from Cairo, and lasted through most of Saturday. A local imam, Sheik Ahmed Abu Al-Dahab, issued the call during Friday afternoon prayers, telling area Muslims to kill the Christians because they had “no right” to live in the village. The attack started several hours later.


The Rev. Hoshea Abd Al-Missieh, a parish priest who narrowly escaped death in the fire, said the clamor of the church being torn apart sounded like “hatred.”


“I was in the attack, but I can’t describe it,” he said. “The sound of the church being destroyed that I heard – I can’t describe it, how horrible it was.”


According to villagers, the mob broke into the Church of the Two Martyrs St. George and St. Mina, and as they chanted “Allahu Akbar [God is greater],” looted it, demolished the walls with sledgehammers and set a fire that burned itself out the next morning. Looters removed anything valuable, including several containers holding the remains of venerated Copts – most of whom were killed in other waves of persecution – then stomped and kicked the containers like soccer balls, witnesses said.

Another Church has been attacked and burned down in Egypt by a mob of Muslim extremists on the basis of “a rumour” that the Church was holding captive a Christian woman who, they claim, wanted to convert to Islam.

My guess is that it will pass largely unremarked as Liberal and Left opinion-makers cast an Nelsonian eye in its direction. There is growing evidence that the secular democratic revolution in Egypt will be victim to a Trojan Horse filled with theocrats.

Let’s face it, little fuss was made or concern shown when it happened last time. On News Year’s Day, a bomb killed 22 Coptic Christians attending Midnight Mass. Inevitably – so removed from reality is the political milieu this is happening in – the finger was pointed at Israel by some prominent Egyptian political leaders.

 

[echiang777]

Response to "Common anti-palestinian arguments"

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I recently found this thread while doing some research on Palestine. (Am also PM'ing the OP since it's been so long). I'm fairly neutral on the Israel-Palestine issue but here are my thoughts:

Jews have never killed innocents , at least not like the Muslims and Europeans have

but based on all the propaganda calling Jews heartless and saying they have killed innocents, it makes me wish they do

jews killed millions?!? where and when exactly?! enlighten me please.

Well, in the 6th century AD there was a Jewish king of Yemen (Dhu Nuwas) who massacred thousands of Christians (upper estimates put it around 20,000 - 22,000, which was a lot of people in the 6th century). This shocked the Byzantines and Ethiopians and led to an Ethiopian military response.

Also, the Jews in the Bible certainly did questionable things (by modern standards). Admittedly, life was very vicious in ancient times and wars were extremely brutal back then. As an example, take a look at Simeon and Levi's actions in response to the rape of Dinah in the book of Genesis. Yes, raping Dinah was bad and the perpetrator should have been punished. But viciously killing *all* of the males in the city of Shechem, and then plundering the city and taking the women and children - all for the actions of one man? Talk about collective punishment!

the state of palestine never existed, the palestinians never have been sovereign and the land you call west-bank was taken from Jordan, not from the state of palestine... but that is not the point here.

Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

If anyone should take responsibility for Israel, it is the British. Because they were the ones who created Israel, and it should be their responsibility to solve this mess! Why is it the rest of the world's responsibility to pay for their military state and to die for their land!? We have our own countries to live for!

The British mandate:

The Palastinians were promised the land by the British if they rose up and fought the Turks of The Ottoman Empire, which they did.

The Balfour Declaration:

The British De Facto heads of states acting on behalf of The Crown also declared the land a Jewish homeland.

Things are complicated because the concept of sovereign states is a relatively modern idea (and some might argue that it is already obsolete).

The Brits (and other powers) certainly had their own designs for the region, as can be seen from the failed Treaty of Sevres and the preceding secret Tripartite Agreement. But, as if often the case, things didn't go quite the way they had planned. There had also been the intention of creating Kurdistan for the Kurds but that never materialized. So I'm not sure how valid you can rely on British promises from 1915.

Also a lot of the problems in the region were simply the result of the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire (not really the British's "fault"). You have similar problems whenever other empires dissolve (Austrian-Hungarian, Holy Roman Empire, Rome). The Balkans were also a mess after World War I and II.

The Brits were in this position because it was the Ottomans who had previously conquered the Palestine region. And before then it was in the hands of the Mongols, Arabs, Byzantines (Eastern Rome), and Persians. Before then (Western) Rome. Go back farther and you'll have Phoenicians and Canaanites. It's gonna be a mess no matter what way you look at it.

Islam is the greatest killer of all time, worse than Christianity, fascism or communism. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadist conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The Jews similarly annihilated.

Yes, Islam did do many terrible things during this time against Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Jews.

However, a lot of the fault also lies with the Christians who brought much of the trouble on themselves. Western Europe repeatedly failed to help the Byzantine Empire. Oftentimes, Crusaders who took over Muslim-controlled cities would massacre the inhabitants, thinking they were Muslim (when they were actually Byzantine Christians). The Fourth Crusade had the audacity to sack Constantinople, one of the greatest cities of the time. The Byzantine Empire never really recovered after that. Western Europe also failed to help Constantinople when it was finally besieged by the Ottomans (partly due to Venetian greed and rivalry).

Even with the Christians in the Middle East, many of them initially welcomed the Muslim conquerors, seeing them as better than the "heretical" Eastern Orthodox Byzantines (those in the region were largely Oriental Orthodox). Only too late did they realize that things were worse under these new rulers.

A lot of the destruction of Christianity was done to itself. Catholicism destroyed Constantinople (during the aforementioned Fourth Crusade). You had the European wars of religion following the Protestant Reformation (with the notable Thirty Years War). Christianity also destroyed much of its own history through iconoclasm (there were two major Byzantine iconoclasms and also the Reformation iconoclasm).

You can also think of some interesting parallels between Sunni/Shiite wars, conflicts with Sufism, and several cases of iconoclasm - both within Islam (such as the recent destruction of Sufi shrines in Timbuktu) and to other religions (the Taliban's destruction of the giant Buddhas).

And note that while Islam was quite brutal to Zoroastrianism by destroying many of its sacred sites and persecuting its worshipers, also note that Christianity wasn't that nice to Zoroastrianism either. Byzantine emperor Heraclius destroyed the great fire temple of Taxte Soleymān in the 7th century (though that was partly provoked by Persia's capture of Jerusalem and the massacre and enslavement of many of its inhabitants).



---------------------


Getting back to the Israel-Palestine issue.

The motivations of many Middle Eastern countries is suspect since many (like Jordan and Egypt) originally wanted to annex Palestine itself (rather than allow it to be an independent state). It's also interesting that while Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria are so quick to focus on the plight of the Palestinians, they conveniently neglect the situation of the Kurds and wouldn't be quite so eager to support the creation of Kurdistan. Of course this sort of hypocrisy exists in most nations (including Western, industrialized ones). I *really* wished that, in response to the recent U.N. referendum on recognizing Palestine, either the U.S. or Israel had introduced a similar bill to recognize Kurdistan (probably would have to be Israel, since the U.S. wouldn't want to risk angering Turkey).

While romantics might like to view the world through rose-colored lens consisting of ideal rules of law, I'm more resigned that the world works through political realism, realpolitik, and ultimately the right of conquest (or who has the power to hold the land).

So the fate of Israel *and* Palestine rests on who has the power to control it (and right now it just happens to be Israel).

What happens next depends on who has the power and if anyone can effectively challenge it. (Just like China with Tibet and Taiwan, Russia and Georgia with South Ossetia, U.K. and Argentina with the Falkland Islands, and Serbia and Kosovo in the Balkans).

 

[echiang777]

Well, in the 6th century AD there was a Jewish king of Yemen (Dhu Nuwas) who massacred thousands of Christians (upper estimates put it around 20,000 - 22,000, which was a lot of people in the 6th century). This shocked the Byzantines and Ethiopians and led to an Ethiopian military response.

Also, the Jews in the Bible certainly did questionable things (by modern standards). Admittedly, life was very vicious in ancient times and wars were extremely brutal back then. As an example, take a look at Simeon and Levi's actions in response to the rape of Dinah in the book of Genesis. Yes, raping Dinah was bad and the perpetrator should have been punished. But viciously killing *all* of the males in the city of Shechem, and then plundering the city and taking the women and children - all for the actions of one man? Talk about collective punishment!

Oh, and additional atrocities (supposedly) committed by Jews include:

- The genocide of Canaanites by Moses and the Israelis in the Old Testament.

- Christians (and some Muslims) who believe in the New Testament might also point out that the Jewish King Herod slaughtered all of the male infants in Bethlelem (the Massacre of the Innocents).

Yes, Islam did do many terrible things during this time against Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Jews.

However, a lot of the fault also lies with the Christians who brought much of the trouble on themselves. Western Europe repeatedly failed to help the Byzantine Empire. Oftentimes, Crusaders who took over Muslim-controlled cities would massacre the inhabitants, thinking they were Muslim (when they were actually Byzantine Christians). The Fourth Crusade had the audacity to sack Constantinople, one of the greatest cities of the time. The Byzantine Empire never really recovered after that. Western Europe also failed to help Constantinople when it was finally besieged by the Ottomans (partly due to Venetian greed and rivalry).

Even with the Christians in the Middle East, many of them initially welcomed the Muslim conquerors, seeing them as better than the "heretical" Eastern Orthodox Byzantines (those in the region were largely Oriental Orthodox). Only too late did they realize that things were worse under these new rulers.

A lot of the destruction of Christianity was done to itself. Catholicism destroyed Constantinople (during the aforementioned Fourth Crusade). You had the European wars of religion following the Protestant Reformation (with the notable Thirty Years War). Christianity also destroyed much of its own history through iconoclasm (there were two major Byzantine iconoclasms and also the Reformation iconoclasm).

You can also think of some interesting parallels between Sunni/Shiite wars, conflicts with Sufism, and several cases of iconoclasm - both within Islam (such as the recent destruction of Sufi shrines in Timbuktu) and to other religions (the Taliban's destruction of the giant Buddhas).

And note that while Islam was quite brutal to Zoroastrianism by destroying many of its sacred sites and persecuting its worshipers, also note that Christianity wasn't that nice to Zoroastrianism either. Byzantine emperor Heraclius destroyed the great fire temple of Taxte Soleymān in the 7th century (though that was partly provoked by Persia's capture of Jerusalem and the massacre and enslavement of many of its inhabitants).

And note that one of the main reasons that the Arabs were able to conquer so much territory in its early years, was because the Byzantine Empire (Christians) and Sassanid Persians (Zoroastrians) had exhausted themselves with ruinous wars against each other, so they were each too weak to effectively repel the Arab invaders.

 

[HigherVision]

"jews killed millions?!? where and when exactly?! enlighten me please."

In the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia early last century:

 

[JCDenton0451]

The Palestinians won't be allowed to become Israelis as the birthrate differential would rapidly make today's Israelis and their descendants a minority in their own country.

White people will become a minority in their own country, if the demographers are to be believed. Should we fight against it? What would the media call a person who fights to preserve white majority in America? (rhetorical question)

It seems that the different moral standards are applied to Israel? Aren't we supposed to share values with Israel?

I say more "diversity" in Israel can only be a good thing.

 

[JCDenton0451]

It seems pretty obvious to me that the Jewish State is the underlying cause of conflict in the Middle East. A One-state Solution, involving Israeli Jews, Palestinians and Palestinian refugees living in the single state, would eliminate the basis for conflict.

Those who wonder what would become of the Jews, living as a minority in the Palestinian state, just need to look to South Africa for an example.

 

[willwash]

You can condemn the violence of Palestinian extremists, but still put forth legimitae anti-Zionist arguments.

It's exactly what we do when we defend against people like Ghouliani who twist Ron's words.

 

[willwash]

It seems pretty obvious to me that the Jewish State is the underlying cause of conflict in the Middle East. A One-state Solution, involving Israeli Jews, Palestinians and Palestinian refugees living in the single state, would eliminate the basis for conflict.

Those who wonder what would become of the Jews, living as a minority in the Palestinian state, just need to look to South Africa for an example.

This. And to those who say that two nations within a single state can't work, I say look at our Indian tribes here.