Collectivist RP supporters, good or bad?
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Have I offended you in some way?
Alex Libman
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I don't know - I've never met a collectivist Ron Paul supporter!
FreeTraveler
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The more votes the better. I put up a poll earlier and found they're only about 15%, so the long-term impact on the freedom movement will be minimal. For now they are fellow travelers, no reason to make them mad.
Do you mean the tax poll? I'm not sure that's exactly the same question, but I can see how they're related.
Enzo
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The point of this forum is to get Ron Paul elected. I'm not a fan of collectivism in the "mob" sense. But it has been very powerful, and very useful at times on this forum.
The more people we have donating and voting and campaigning the better.
FreeTraveler
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Yep, the tax poll is the one "litmus test" that I believe separates true freedom-fighters from the rest. (Although L. Neil Smith's Second Amendment test is almost as good)
The tax poll does a good job of measuring a person's support for individual liberty. I'm asking more about how each person views others, and how this affects the movement. Do they view humans as members of groups rather than as individuals, and is this good or bad?
Oh. Can you give some examples that clearly illustrate the distinction?
How do you know when you're doing one rather than the other?
Isn't the movement a group?
Don't people who view others as individuals constitute a group?
MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2
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I have, kinda. There are people who believe in collectivist ideas, but don't believe they're very effective or desired on a national level.
You don't always have to convince people that Ron Paul is right about everything. You have to convince them that they can have a greater effect at a local level, when local voices are heard and local people are held accountable.
WilliamC
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Remember the preamble?
"We the people, of the United States..."
I am not a citizen of the world, I am a citizen of the United States. If that meets your criteria of being a "collectivist" then I am.
Sergeant Brother
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How can you define a collective? Somebody who looks at people in terms of groups - like us good Ron Paul supporters vs those evil collectivists? Patriotism is collectivism. How many of us value our western cultural traditions? How many of us have our hobbies or interests or values that set us apart? How many of us feel a bit closer to those who share our religion than to those who don't? How many mothers think that their baby is the prettiest baby ever? How many of us view the neo-cons and socialists as enemies in this battle to get Ron Paul elected?
We're all collectivists in our own individual ways. And thats OK, that's life, that is something that people have to deal with.
By going around pointing fingers at these "evil collectivists" you are just becoming what you would claim to oppose. If you really don't like collectivism, then start by trying not to be one - though that's easier said than done isn't it?
We're all collectivists in our own individual ways. And thats OK, that's life, that is something that people have to deal with.
By going around pointing fingers at these "evil collectivists" you are just becoming what you would claim to oppose. If you really don't like collectivism, then start by trying not to be one - though that's easier said than done isn't it?
Dave Pedersen
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United We Stand. Divided We Fall. Am I missing something? Was collectivism useful during the Revolutionary War? Or how about when certain people gathered to draft a constitution? I don't know how anyone can ask such a question unless I don't understand what is meant by the term "collectivism".
We today have for a brief window of time the internet to unite for real change. Nothing would please our enemies more than for us to refuse this chance on the basis of there being something inherently wrong with collective action.
We today have for a brief window of time the internet to unite for real change. Nothing would please our enemies more than for us to refuse this chance on the basis of there being something inherently wrong with collective action.
Truth Warrior
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There are only individuals! The "collective" is merely an non-existent abstraction, in reality.<IMHO>
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstraction
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abstraction
If you want to put it that way, then an "individual" is merely a non-existent abstraction.
Gunpartsguy
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If the word "collectivist" is used to describe socialism/communism...bad.
When "collectivism" is used to describe banding together to accomplish a noble goal.........Different story!
Collectivism could be construed as meaning a collection of people with a viewpoint that are fighting for the same goal. Sounds like a political "party" to me. In the last 20 years the word "party" has become a bad thing to me. Like "Nazi Party" or "Communist Party", etc...the party being more important than the country and it's people! It seems that many folks do think that way. The goals of the party are what's important. Follow along! Get with the program! Your either one of "us" or not! Kind of mindsets.
The fact that so many folks from all different views can come together for an important and noble goal such as restoring the constitution...is heart lifting. We have people in this movement from left, right and center. THAT is a beautiful thing!
If there are folks that are collectivists as in "socialists" in this movement. They will be sorely disappointed by the outcome of getting RP into office. Real freedom and liberty is a messy and chaotic thing. And it's great!
Some folks need to feel that things are always in somebodies control so they feel safe. They give the responsibility to the power in control. Giving up that responsibility is loss of liberty. They give it up to the "collective". Ie: Socialism, communism, despotism.....all kinds of "isms". Liberty and freedom can't be said or written as an "ism"!
When "collectivism" is used to describe banding together to accomplish a noble goal.........Different story!
Collectivism could be construed as meaning a collection of people with a viewpoint that are fighting for the same goal. Sounds like a political "party" to me. In the last 20 years the word "party" has become a bad thing to me. Like "Nazi Party" or "Communist Party", etc...the party being more important than the country and it's people! It seems that many folks do think that way. The goals of the party are what's important. Follow along! Get with the program! Your either one of "us" or not! Kind of mindsets.
The fact that so many folks from all different views can come together for an important and noble goal such as restoring the constitution...is heart lifting. We have people in this movement from left, right and center. THAT is a beautiful thing!
If there are folks that are collectivists as in "socialists" in this movement. They will be sorely disappointed by the outcome of getting RP into office. Real freedom and liberty is a messy and chaotic thing. And it's great!
Some folks need to feel that things are always in somebodies control so they feel safe. They give the responsibility to the power in control. Giving up that responsibility is loss of liberty. They give it up to the "collective". Ie: Socialism, communism, despotism.....all kinds of "isms". Liberty and freedom can't be said or written as an "ism"!
Truth Warrior
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How do you come to that conclusion, please? What definition of "abstraction" are you using?
Thanks!
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