CO2 emissions in US drop to 20-year low

The real reason CO2 emissions have been dropping is that the economy is swirling the toilet. Energy use is the single best measure of the amount of activity in the economy, and given our present-day fuel sources, CO2 emissions is a very good proxy measure for energy use.

I have been saying for nearly 20 years that the only realistic way to substantially reduce CO2 across the economy is to destroy the economy, and we are seeing that unfold in real time.
 
So there's predictability....ok.

CO2 has to do with the weather, or else you wouldn't be bringing up volcanoes.

Carbon Dioxide is exhaled by animals and consumed by plants. I bring up volcanos because one volcanic explosion has more impact on the environment in one year than 6 billion humans, and their industries, have on the environment in 100 years.
 
Carbon Dioxide is exhaled by animals and consumed by plants.

And?

I bring up volcanos because one volcanic explosion has more impact on the environment in one year than 6 billion humans, and their industries, have on the environment in 100 years.

How does that impact? Just by ashes and dust? Or are there gases that promote ......wait, I wasn't talking about the environment. I was talking about CLIMATE. I'm not some anti-pollution treehugging hippie if that's what you thought.
 
I don't think that the vast majority of people comprehend exactly what human contribution actually means. They take it so personal as if the individual is in question but that's not the case. As such the discussion turns toward feel good dialogue which removes the tue nature of the matter.
 
I don't think that the vast majority of people comprehend exactly what human contribution actually means. They take it so personal as if the individual is in question but that's not the case. As such the discussion turns toward feel good dialogue which removes the tue nature of the matter.

What does this mean? What is your carbon footprint?
 
What does this mean? What is your carbon footprint?

If he can't give you a PRECISE, SHORT, UNDERSTANDABLE answer RIGHT NOW to YOUR satisfaction, you get to yell "AHA, see? You don't have any carbon footprint!"
 
If he can't give you a PRECISE, SHORT, UNDERSTANDABLE answer RIGHT NOW to YOUR satisfaction, you get to yell "AHA, see? You don't have any carbon footprint!"

Ha... ha. We all have a carbon footprint. Al Gore's carbon footprint is much bigger than mine, but his dick is small. He must compensate for equality.
 
I hate counter propaganda like this for one reason: If you use the story in argument you automatically fall for the greens trap by buying into their framing of the debate. Carbon emissions are what again? They are not even calculable in any accurate way. Simply an arbitrary accounting method from which to arbitrarily peg a new method of taxation. And guess who gets to decide...? The EPA: an un elected department of revenue collectors flouting "science" as their divine reason to loot.

Carbon can not be accurately measured from all sources, let alone fairly assess who or what is releasing how much and where.
 
Last edited:
CO2 is healthy? Or just for plants?

Get a grip. I exhale CO2 everyday all the time. Plants love us. I love plants because they convert CO2 into Oxygen... It is a nice synergistic relationship ... God Bless Their Souls.

I thought we were talking about volcanoes
Yeah. I'm not sure you are following the conversation... at all... or reading anything posted accurately. My claim is that one volcano can produce more pollution in the atmosphere in 1 year, as proven by the "year without a summer" than all of humanity can conjure up in 100 years with all their evil machines. What do you think?
 
Last edited:
I hate counter propaganda like this for one reason: If you use the story in argument you automatically fall for the greens trap by buying into their framing of the debate. Carbon emissions are what again? They are not even calculable in any accurate way. Simply an arbitrary accounting method from which to arbitrarily peg a new method of taxation. And guess who gets to decide...? The EPA: an un elected department of revenue collectors flouting "science" as their divine reason to loot.

Carbon can not be accurately measured from all sources, let alone fairly assess who or what is releasing how much and where.

It's worse than that. Back up to the fact that the only thing that is established as fact is that carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere have increased since the industrial revolution. Not its putative causal effects. Those are inferred, deduced, implied. It's Salem all over again, as "mountains of growing evidence" (mostly unrelated to climate science) are piled onto a funeral pyre, as anything and everything that appears out of the ordinary, but remains unexplained, is met with a :::: blink blink::: "What else could it be?" Bee hives failing? Climate change. A dingo ate a polar bear's baby? Climate change.

There is absolutely nothing anomalous or statistically significant about any of the actual recent climate warming (or cooling), observed OR MODELED, even if we ignore satellite data for the past thirty years and accept only James Hansen's (et al) "corrected, homogenized and adjusted" values for the Earth, as he gets rid of thousands of working temp stations, mostly rural, and discards mostly rural data as unreliable, such that urban stations are favored. And it is those selective, cherry-picked urban stations that are then used to infer yet more data over wides swashes of the Earth for the past for which there are no data whatsoever. Even then, at its most exaggerated, the net warming is not global or homogenous, nor is it statistically significant.

Enter climate models, the crystal balls of a science in its infancy, with hidden code that is not released to the public, wherein "climate sensitivity" (magnification/multiplication of forcings and feedbacks going into the future) are imposed by the modeler. That modeler becomes the horrific, skeletal Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come, with his scary bony claw pointing at mass graves dug by human generated carbon dioxide. Tsk tsk. It is in those crystal balls only that statistically insignificant climate changes become Scary Tipping Points, analogous to runaway trains that are going to suddenly and violently smash into James Hansen's grandchildren after he steps out of the way -- a thing that will surely make him cry. ::: cue James "Iron Eyes Cody" Hansen's single tear commercial :::

Al Gore, James Hansen, et al, are co-conspirators in the political hijacking of a new and politically expedient branch of science-cum-religion, complete with circular arguments, and a redefinition of science itself. Did they get away with it? Sure they did, even though they have discredited themselves in the eyes of millions of credible scientists from other disciplines who gasp in disbelief at the liberties taken by many climate scientists.

At the annual meeting of Geological Society of America, a paleontologist I know was crying in his beer about a grant proposal of his that fell through. A colleague joked, "Resubmit it. Only this time, end your abstract with the words, '...and to explore its implications on anthropogenic climate change.'" Everyone laughed, as another professor quipped, "If he didn't already do that, I have no sympathy for him."

So yes, they did get away with it. And it's not the first time science and academia have been hijacked for an agenda, to produce a new class of priests and oracles whose authority could be appealed to. It's not because the a priori assumptions and circular conclusions they are advocating for are fundamentally or scientifically sound. They got away with it because they, like Keynesian Economists a hundred years ago, became heavily and politically funded, with departments and whole wings devoted to proving and reaffirming circular questions that had already been asked and answered. All we need now, now that funding is in place, is a fair trial before the inevitable hanging.

The fact that the Epoch we are now living in was recently relabeled the ANTHROPOCENE (starting around 1940, following the Holocene) is proof enough to me that the Salem Climate Witch Trials were a rousing success.
 
Last edited:
The traffic lights are designed to hinder traffic. I can't count the times I have sat for minutes waiting for the light to change when no traffic is coming through on the green light side only to have it change when one finally approaches thus stopping that vehicle.

When I point this out to people I get called a conspiracy nut.

Look ma! No traffic lights!

 
Get a grip. I exhale CO2 everyday all the time. Plants love us. I love plants because they convert CO2 into Oxygen... It is a nice synergistic relationship ... God Bless Their Souls.

Yeah, so CO2 is your waste, not healthy for you. I don't care about plants. I don't hug trees, you can if you want though.

Yeah. I'm not sure you are following the conversation... at all... or reading anything posted accurately.

Really?

My claim is that one volcano can

You never said CAN you said DOES, but its good to see you're backing off.

produce more pollution in the atmosphere in 1 year,

What is the pollution? Ashes? Dust? Or some other gases?

as proven by the "year without a summer" than all of humanity can conjure up in 100 years with all their evil machines. What do you think?

I don't doubt a volcano CAN outdo in a short period what humans do in a long period, but as the even was recorded, it was A YEAR. Human contribution to climate change didn't and doesn't just go away. Again I will ask you, how DOES volcano affect climate? Choose your words carefully. You can't say volcano makes SO2, CO2, and then tell me that doesn't affect climate.

If you want to say CO2 doesn't affect climate, then you have to explain how a volcano can outdo 100 years of human affect on climate. Go ahead, keep talking, you just might trap yourself in a contradiction.
 
Yeah, so CO2 is your waste, not healthy for you. I don't care about plants. I don't hug trees, you can if you want though.

Waste is a truly bad choice of words. CO2 is a byproduct, and part of a cycle that is vital to all life, and is neither waste nor is it wasted.

I don't doubt a volcano CAN outdo in a short period what humans do in a long period, but as the even was recorded, it was A YEAR. Human contribution to climate change didn't and doesn't just go away.

In the great climate debate, the word contributions has two meanings, melded into one on the pro-AGW theory side. One is merely the fact of a contributed/generated amount, in PPM. Take the current estimate PPM, then erase humans from the face of the Earth, along with all the PPM contributions they've made, and if you can do that accurately, you can get a baseline for non-anthropogenic levels of CO2.

The second meaning for "contributions" is the circular argument part. This is where the leap of logic is made, as we don't merely say "human contributions to atmospheric CO2", but go one step further to "human contributions to climate change". Not just CO2.

Well, that's not that much of a leap, is it? Indisputably even a SINGLE EXTRA C02 molecule, added to or taken away from the atmosphere, "affects" climate, no differently than the fact that the tiniest particle of dust orbiting the earth affects the entire orbit of the earth, however negligibly. So to make the statement that "humans contribute to climate change" is entirely accurate. So do ants. So do microbes. So does every living thing on the planet. In fact, if only ONE human existed on the Earth, that one human could be said to affect climate change.

Political advocates for anthropogenic climate change theory can make it appear that science is "on their side" (of their entire theory that humans contribute SUBSTANTIALLY to climate change, primarily via CO2 emissions) by getting people to "deny" or "be deniers" that humans do in fact affect climate change at all. Once you can get that denial, you've won! Because they really are wrong. It's not a question of whether CO2 plays a part in climate variability. As a question of basic physics, that question really is not controversial, as it was settled LONG before (and with no thanks whatsoever to), those involved on any side of the anthropogenic climate change controversy. The only question that is controversial is to what extent; how substantial is that human contribution, and how "sensitive" is the climate to that contribution? That's where all empirical observations fall apart, into statistical insignificance. It is also where political advocates rely on lay ignorance of basic physics, with meaningless goalposts that most lay people aren't even aware exist. If I say that the kinetic energy of a jumping rat affects the entire heat budget of the Earth, I may sound ridiculous, but I can assure everyone that I am absolutely correct. The kinetic energy imparted to the Earth by jumping rats does, in fact, affect the heat budget of the entire Earth. Pay no attention to the fact that it is so negligible as to be immeasurable.

The focus is on human contributions to climate change, based on human contributions to CO2 in the atmosphere, which is in turn presumed will have a substantial effect on climate change IN THE FUTURE, based on assumptions of HIGH CLIMATE SENSITIVITY, even though no statistically significant climate change has occurred to date, and no empirical observations support such sensitivity claims. All such sensitivities are all imposed by the modelers.

So that's why saying the following is meaningless:

Again I will ask you, how DOES volcano affect climate? Choose your words carefully. You can't say volcano makes SO2, CO2, and then tell me that doesn't affect climate.

The short answer is, It does. Both do.

If you want to say CO2 doesn't affect climate, then you have to explain how a volcano can outdo 100 years of human affect on climate.

That's where the circular assumption comes into play, because what the previous answer (humans and volcanoes both contribute CO2 and other gases which do have an effect on climate variability) does not, and cannot tell you, is THE EXTENT to which all those contributions combined actually does affect climate change, regardless of their relative proportions.

You're saying, "outdo 100 years of human affect on climate", without knowing anything about what that amount is, and completely ignoring the original fact, that no matter how ALL CONTRIBUTIONS COMBINED affect climate, it has not resulted in any variability whatsoever that is statistically significant! So you're splitting hairs in the all-important "attribution" phase. The ONLY PLACE where an actual Climate Change Bogeyman comes into play are in the actual models of the future. Not the ancient past, the recent past, or the present. And that all goes back to unfounded assumptions, theories only which are not supported by empirical data, regarding climate sensitivity. And this is where those scientist who are still advocates of the AGW theory (substantial human contribution to variability), but are at least honest enough to know that this is the only area of real controversy, will resort to the "precautionary principle". Because ultimately, that's really all they have, and the science is NOT on their side where that is concerned.
 
Last edited:
So that's why saying the following is meaningless:

The short answer is, It does. Both do.

That's where the circular assumption comes into play, because what the previous answer (humans and volcanoes both contribute CO2 and other gases which do have an effect on climate variability) does not, and cannot tell you, is THE EXTENT to which all those contributions combined actually does affect climate change, regardless of their relative proportions.

Obviously you can see, this guy has a different answer than you (if he has one at all). Your point is, you don't buy that there is climate change. He's saying volcano does worse, you can't both be right (but you can both be wrong).
 
Back
Top