Civil disobedience cannot be discussed on RPF...

[ChristianAnarchist]

NOBODY IS SUPPOSED TO GET HURT !!! (yes, I'm yelling...)

It's not the intent to get caught...
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?490272-Break-a-law-today!!
The whole idea of the "exercise" is to get people used to the idea that they can, and do, break stupid laws everyday and there is NO consequence to doing so. The law picked for that day's "exercise" would be something they could easily get away with and not worry about so much as getting a citation. Things like running a stop sign when there's no oncoming traffic and no goons around, or doing someone's manicure and getting paid for it. Even a "pay for sex day" where you could simply pay your wife or significant other for sex that day. No one is getting "caught" or risking any danger in these things. It's simply a mass demonstration that shows how the goons have very little influence on your behavior if you simply change your perception of who and what they are. Supposedly they are "servants". Supposedly "we the people" are supposed to be the masters. This exercise is simply to demonstrate to "the people" that as "masters" they don't have to do what the goons tell them...

 

[osan]

This is true. Let me clarify: if the risk:benefit ratio of any civil disobedience is in one's favor, it is likely to be a worthwhile endeavour and should be considered.

I understand your position but maintain that inherent there is one of the core elements of the greater problem.

Consider the Minutemen and all the others who risked everything to fight the Brits. Odds were decidedly against them, yet they proceeded. That is courage. We as a nation and speaking on the whole, lack courage for such things precisely because we do not want to act when odds are against us. Until that attitude changes, we will continue on this path toward the ultimate annihilation of human freedom.

High reward invariably involves high stakes.

One either wants freedom, or does not. There is no middle ground. As I have written elsewhere, there are NO degrees of freedom. One is either free, or is subservient. There are degrees of subservience. Freedom is all-or-nothing.

If you want it... REALLY want it, then you must be willing to pay its price. Otherwise, as Madison (?)*** is [para]quoted, go from us in peace and may history forget you were ever our countrymen. Not YOU personally, may I clarify.

There is nothing wrong with calculation where great risk is concerned, but there is a point where one must make the FUNDAMENTAL choice, which either accepts the possibly grave risks entailed, or flees to the safety of the status quo of the standing state of servitude.

The only question that remains is, "which will it be?"



ETA:

*** it was, of course, Samuel Adams. I knew I'd get that one wrong. I do it every time. Perhaps I will remember next time. Perhaps not.

Here is a cool update on that quote:

If you love the redistribution of wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of welfare than the animated pursuit of success, go from us in peace. We seek not your counsel or aid. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon your children, and may history forget that you were ever our countrymen!

from: https://www.reddit.com/r/Republican/comments/1cdy14/what_sam_adams_would_say_were_he_here_today/

 

[wmmonk]

Well, I, for one, am not, in any circumstances, actively trying to get beaten up or go to jail.

But to answer your question... there are maybe a half-dozen people on this site I'd be willing to help out in a situation where I'd get beaten up or go to jail.
For fuck's sake, most of the people here still think it was a good idea for Rand to endorse Romney. I'm not carrying a thimbleful of water for any of those fuckwits.

So, you don't think it was a good idea for Rand to endorse Romney I take it? Explain? Rand did basic Civil Disobedience to the liberty movement when he did that. Maybe that's what this thread is about. POLITICAL civil disobedience? Breaking the norm, while expanding our influence as is more than evidenced with Rand's 2016 campaign.

It's why I'm supporting Vermin Supreme now. His name says it all really. The media hates the guy so much, they won't even cover him. When was the last time you saw Vermin Supreme talked about on Fox News? CNN? NBC?

I think we know who the GOP and DNC really hate, and especially the media.

Now, join me in my political civil disobedience, and vote for VERMIN SUPREME!

 

[pcosmar]

Civil disobedience is often been discussed.
And practiced.

Ist amendment is mostly supported.

What CAN NOT be discussed,, involves the true purpose of the 2nd Amendment.

And I do not advocate violence,, That will come.. (accept that fact)
I advocate defense from and effective response to violence.

dissent will no longer be tolerated.

What people do about it is yet to be seen.

 

[Athan]

Frankly, after LaVoy, fuck the government. If people break the law, and I find it to be victimless then I ain't saying shit.
We all now know what happens when you cooperate, comply, and surrender to law enforcement after LaVoy's political assassination.

 

[Schifference]

Will Apple stick to their principle and not comply with the FBI? Is that a form of Civil Disobedience? Is Apple even committing a crime? Will Apples refusal to open the IPhone be considered a crime?

 

[Zippyjuan]

Well I'm not one of them. I still haven't forgiven Rand for that endorsement; nor for the endorsement of Mitch McConnell.

Our heros ultimately disappoint us in one way or another. They are, unfortunately, only human like the rest of us. Even if we don't want them to be.

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

Burn your bra anytime you like dude.

 

[CPUd]

This isn't quite accurate. We can talk about civil disobedience such as in historical cases of it, it just can't be promoted for people to engage in it.

Could anyone explain how the FBI deals with people who organize civil disobedience?

ChristianAnarchist:

Bryan:

 

[osan]

Well, I, for one, am not, in any circumstances, actively trying to get beaten up or go to jail.

ANY circumstance? Then I must infer that civil disobedience is out of the question for you.

OK, but then what are YOUR options? It would seem that you would then be completely reliant upon your so-called "representatives" for the preservation, or in this case restoration, of your fundamental rights. Obviously, if you are actively avoiding the consequences of defiance, you must not expect others to assume such exposure. It would also seem that it would somehow follow that your representatives must be in some way immune to such exposure, for would they not also otherwise be risking it if they were to act against some element of so-called "representation" that was in its own turn acting against your rights?

Or is it your (albeit tacit) posit that you have no rights and are obliged to do as you are told no matter that the mandate?

Here, "in any circumstance" implies many possibilities when placed under close, careful, and competent scrutiny. Are you absolutely certain that you mean what you wrote?

But to answer your question... there are maybe a half-dozen people on this site I'd be willing to help out in a situation where I'd get beaten up or go to jail.

What what? Did you not in the line just previous write that under no circumstance would you expose yourself to such a risk, or am I misreading your intent? I'm serious here - have I lapsed in my ability to parse what you wrote?

For fuck's sake, most of the people here still think it was a good idea for Rand to endorse Romney. I'm not carrying a thimbleful of water for any of those fuckwits.

Rand has proven rather disappointing, I am so very sad to say. Firstly, I believe a so-called "politician" should be loathe to endorse any other politician at any time, for any reason. It should not take so much as any mean feat of mental prowess to dope out why. Endorsing a man like Romney... the hell? And what of McConnell? Two big hints as to the "why" of the previous sentence.

Now, let us consider "civil disobedience" a mite more closely. What are the metes and bounds of it? Does speaking out constitute such an act? Why? Why not? If a "law" is passed banning some subset of speech, it flies in the face of the 1A, implying that either it or the 1A is invalid. If you remain silent in compliance of "law", have you not in effect conceded your 1A right in toto?

We could go on like this for page after page with these sorts of thin-slice questions, but perhaps the point has been made that all this devilishness in language comes out to play the moment you start gaming the basic rights of men. The moment you fail to bring upon the trespasser devastating harm for even the slightest incursion upon your sacred birthright territory, you have in effect conceded all of your sovereignty as null and void. Never fool yourself into the false belief that rights can be partitioned in such ways that these bits over here are unconditional, but those over there require permission or are otherwise subject to the whim of your fellows' mood.

The fact is, we all of us concede the whole of the body of our rights when we comply with "law" that trespasses against us in the least measurable manner. Everyone here and everywhere else needs to sit their asses back in their comfy chairs with their artisan beers, whiskies, joints, netporn, or what have you, and think about that for as many weeks, months, or decades as it takes to get the head straight on this point. It is logically UNAVOIDBLE that for one to concede the least epsilon of his rights to the whim of another, he concedes in principle every square inch of his sovereign territory in all considerations, aspects, dimensions, and ways, for the precedent has been set that his rights are, in fact, a sham.

That is why, in principle, it is a man's right, nay practical DUTY, to bring some harm to one who so much as steals from him a piece of chewing gum. Few people are serious about their rights, and most of those end up dead.

Let us be plain here. Let us be honest to a fault. Let us be unwaveringly so for this once: nobody here is truly serious about his rights, all indignation to the contrary notwithstanding. Were we, there would have been civil insurrection long, long ago. Police would be dead by the thousands, as would so vastly many others, whether elements of "government", street punks thinking they had a right to violate you even in the most commonly committed ways, or anyone else ignorant, lazy, or otherwise corrupt enough to think that they were entitled to dance upon even the most remote corner of your God-given acre.

This will likely earn me no friends, but we are all full of shit until such time as we become willing to bring what harm, which the propriety of our divine sovereignties demands, to those vampires who presume their right to feed upon us, regardless of how lightly they may seem to tread on our claims. That is the only truth that stands up in my eyes. The rest is all builshittery designed to mitigate and deflect the clear onus of responsibility that rests upon the shoulders of each man toward himself and his fellows to do the right, but very risky things that divine righteousness demands of us as individual men.

Almost literally everything is against us. If a man steals from me and I break his hands in demonstration to him that he has done grave wrong to another, does the law stand with me? No. It prosecutes me for "excessive force". Bull. Shit. This is why we are a nation destroyed. All perspective and proportion are gone with the political wind. It is gone so long and so completely that even the seemingly wisest among us here fail to see it. That is the degree and nature of the devastation of the perceptual landscape, which has been bombed to saturation with insanity for endless decades such that people no longer see truth as such, but rather as a horror from which to flee in terror and with uncompromising hatred.

We are literally destroyed and I mean that with the serious tone of a fatal heart attack. Freedom will not be making a come-back here or anywhere else any time soon because I know of virtually no man who understands what the word even means. True freedom is feared by all, for they conflate it with "chaos" and other things that strike terror into their selves such that there is no possible chance that they would ever turn toward it, save to excise it from the earth for all time. We are all of us so divorced from the reality of true freedom that nary a one of us would even consider it as a lifestyle. It is too terrifying in its least measure; it demands too much of us; too much integrity and faith does it require to survive among us for even one minute. True freedom would slow this world WAY down and nobody really wants that, all protest aside.

The sad, sad truth is that we actually want the low-rent, petty drama of our enslavement, only now it is gone too far and we grow fearful of the trend that appears to show no hint of slowing, much less stopping. We, the people, have bitten off far more than we can chew, having thought we could have our cake and eat it, too. We were content with the illusion of our pretty slavery, that nicely appointed and spacious gilt cage which we, with willful naïveté, gave the false label of "freedom". But then the cage became piecemeal shorter, narrower, and not quite as tall. We rationalized away this crime against all decency, calling it "necessary" as matters of the rights of others, of "national security", and all manner of other bullshit. And now the trappings and the gilding itself are slowing being stripped away to show the dark, dank cell that our "freedom" has been since long before any of us were born. We are literally being unplugged from the matrix, left to experience the bleak reality of the world that we once thought so cozy and lovely. The chickens are coming home to roost and the henhouse is in a ghastly state.

And the juggernaut we once welcomed is now seemingly unstoppable. It is heading toward the trestle that spans a broad chasm that falls away into an endless, black abyss. The trestle, however, is breached beyond crossing and when the mighty beast enters upon its shaky foundation, down will it all go crashing into the depths of eternal damnation, each of us with it. And now that we are closing well upon that horror, we begin so see the fate that awaits us, and yet still do we hesitate to jump away for fear of the frightful speed and our impact upon the earth's only safe possibility for us. That is why we are doomed, my friends. We fear our only chance at salvation, using every dog-shit excuse in the book and going so far as to ban the mere speak of it.

There is nothing more to be said, really. Not until some brave soul stands up, risking life itself, to show the example of the righteous man in the face of all perdition and doom. Then must we see a second, a third, and so on. But I remain absent in confidence that this will ever happen, for a race of frightened mice have we become, the vast plurality of us, and without critical mass, hope remains on its back, fast asleep.

So think on these things. If you don't want real freedom, at least do yourself the honor of admitting it and comforting yourself with resignation. Otherwise, I say speak boldly, even of killing those whose boot rests so rudely upon your neck, for this is an all-or-nothing proposition. Half-measures and excuseful mitigations will avail you nothing but the guarantee of your destruction. The fact is, you actually have NOTHING to lose by coming clean with the truth, getting right with "God", and swinging for the bleachers because your doom is sealed in any event. That hail-Mary pass is the ONLY hope you have. Of that, I am quite assuredly confident.

In the end, the decision is yours and yours alone.

 

[DamianTV]

There are 3 Stages of Revolution

#1 - Spread of Information
#2 - Civil Disobedience
#3 - Violence

This site has already heavily participated in the first stage of revolution. We all recognize there are very serious problems around the planet in nearly every way that it applies to life. In order for anyone to resolve any problem, the problem needs to be identified, then discussed.

The second stage of revolution is the refusal to follow laws that are intended to promote tyranny. There is a major disconnect between following the laws and morality. During the stage of civil disobedience, moral people, which is mostly what I hope the members of this forum are, will no longer follow the immoral laws and instead try to behave as governed by their own morals. A good example is that it is illegal to give a homeless person food. The claim is that the food that is provided to a homeless person needs to be regulated by the FDA and meet Federal Nutritional Guidelines, when its real intent is to "get rid of the nuisance" because it makes the powers that be look bad.

There are always two forms of anything. What something is, and what it is not. What the second stage of revolution is NOT is about promoting violence. Purposefully breaking any law that causes harm to any other human being is what we must all refrain from engaging in. The laws that we will disobey are the Brown Shirt Laws. See something, say something. Self incrimination. Do not feed the homeless. I will not promote "breaking the law" to allow for people to cause any form of harm to another human life, period.

The third stage of revolution is violence, and although most of us believe it will be visited upon us, this is where the real decimation occurs, and what we have all been actively trying to avoid. I actually think that pockets of violence by the people are being heavily encouraged and incentivized so that the "misbehavior" of people can be used as an excuse to fully suspend the Constitution and apply the Police State in full force. We are not there yet, and until that time comes, I will not advocate calling for violence against the Police or anyone else. Police are human beings too, but they are just as much victims as we are as they have become tools of enslavement. They are also quite aware of this themselves. This is why we have organizations such as the Oathkeepers, and still do hear stories that Sheriffs will refuse to confiscate guns from people should such an order ever be demanded of them. There are good cops out there.

This is not a war that will be won by violence. For Freedom to win what is soon coming, we must hold ourselves to the highest standard possible, raising the bar be damned. We must be reflections that Freedom and Liberty are the best way for humanity to survive. That is how we win over the minds and hearts of those who truly and actively support the status quo. There are just as many factions who would replace our current form of Authoritarianism with their own brand of Authoritarianism, and actually think that will bring about meaningful change. Those are the people who are far more dangerous than any Militarized Police or Military or Bankster because they are the Enablers, yet, they are also just as much victims of the real rulers and planners of the destruction of our society. There is a very strong reason why Propaganda is directed at the people 24 / 7 and that is because it is effective. In order to undo the Brainwashing that is so pervasive and destructive to the foundations of liberty and freedom, we must show people that the greatest threat to our very survival is not in overcoming these victimized authoritarian groups with our own form of authoritarianism, but instead show others that not only can we survive with freedom and liberty, but that is the only possible way humanity will survive. If we do not achieve in this as a common goal, then our species may very well survive what is about to come, but the very spirit of humanity will be lost forever.

Set an example of what it means for the spirit of humanity to thrive, and others will be inspired by what you achieve. This is how we win the war on humanity.

 

[HVACTech]

I got a seat belt ticket today..

state trooper. he is on the passenger side and he asks me. why I am not wearing my seat belt... my response was that Liberty dies when it is not defended.
(after explaining of course that I was not arguing with him) and that in my opinion, Liberty and freedom are two different things. Liberty includes the ability to do things that might not be good for you...
there was a bit more conversation and he said that it burdens the public at the hospital. (drug use)
pregnant pause...
he then explained that it had only recently become a primary offense.
I responded that I considered it a form of tyranny and oppression.. (the trooper was black, I am white)
another pregnant pause.. (oh shit!)
he then said that for the past 7 years he has been hearing that. so much so that it makes him want to vomit..
he then complimented the condition of my truck... I responded that it has 435K miles on it and I have been driving it in this same town for over 11 years.
he then asked how many engines it has had. I said two. (1989 dodge ram)

all in all. he was a decent guy.
I was also in a position to press my luck. small town, well known truck, no beer cans or drugs in the truck. ()
there is a time and a place for everything.

 

[idiom]

Non-violent civil disobedience has a range of absolute must-haves in order to be successful. These are well studied and tested.

* maintain respect for the rule of law even while disobeying the specific law that you perceive as unjust
* do not seek to undermine the rule of law, but only the repeal of unjust laws
* plead guilty to any violation of the law
* attempt to convert your opponent by demonstrating the justice of your cause

It is critical that the injustice is seen by everyone. This requires:

* Targeting government personalities that are likely to over react
* Sufficient numbers of well disciplined people will to not retaliate

The idea is to embarrass the government or coerce to through weight of numbers a return to justice.

The whole idea of the "exercise" is to get people used to the idea that they can, and do, break stupid laws everyday and there is NO consequence to doing so. The law picked for that day's "exercise" would be something they could easily get away with and not worry about so much as getting a citation. Things like running a stop sign when there's no oncoming traffic and no goons around, or doing someone's manicure and getting paid for it. Even a "pay for sex day" where you could simply pay your wife or significant other for sex that day. No one is getting "caught" or risking any danger in these things. It's simply a mass demonstration that shows how the goons have very little influence on your behavior if you simply change your perception of who and what they are. Supposedly they are "servants". Supposedly "we the people" are supposed to be the masters. This exercise is simply to demonstrate to "the people" that as "masters" they don't have to do what the goons tell them...

So this bullshit just reinforces the concept that an unjust society is okay, and its okay to be corrupt.

Instead pick a single stupid and unjust law and get everyone to violate it specifically and flagrantly while keeping all the others until it gets changed. Then rinse and repeat.

It requires situations where you can generate significant leverage, either emotional, economic, or otherwise.

Nobody here is up for this shit.




Hell, half the people here think that righting social injustice through peaceful protest is a form of communism.



Tell you what though, If Rand had lead a march in Ferguson through police lines and gone to jail for it, he would already be the presumptive nominee.

 

[osan]

Frankly, after LaVoy, fuck the government.

That part of me yet to be born probably said that no later than just after Marbury v. Madison. Government in any form or capacity is pure clusterfuckery. It is guaranteed doom, yet we continue to turn to its false promises.

Humans...


I just twigged most disturbingly. This is something of off-topic, though not completely: I am wondering whether it has come to pass or will come to pass that in the selection of people for jury duty, potential candidates' social media posts will be scrutinized either prior to mailing the notices (best case for Themme) or during questioning for selection for a given case.

Anyone?

 

[HVACTech]

ANY circumstance? Then I must infer that civil disobedience is out of the question for you.


So think on these things. If you don't want real freedom, at least do yourself the honor of admitting it and comforting yourself with resignation. Otherwise, I say speak boldly, even of killing those whose boot rests so rudely upon your neck, for this is an all-or-nothing proposition. Half-measures and excuseful mitigations will avail you nothing but the guarantee of your destruction. The fact is, you actually have NOTHING to lose by coming clean with the truth, getting right with "God", and swinging for the bleachers because your doom is sealed in any event.

In the end, the decision is yours and yours alone.

so, uh... how do I "get right with God" Osan? and swing for the bleachers?

 

[HVACTech]

That part of me yet to be born probably said that no later than just after Marbury v. Madison. Government in any form or capacity is pure clusterfuckery. It is guaranteed doom, yet we continue to turn to its false promises.

Humans...


I just twigged most disturbingly. This is something of off-topic, though not completely: I am wondering whether it has come to pass or will come to pass that in the selection of people for jury duty, potential candidates' social media posts will be scrutinized either prior to mailing the notices (best case for Themme) or during questioning for selection for a given case.

Anyone?

how do we turn from the "clusterfuckery." of the State dear Osan?
how do we learn to "twigg" like you do?
is it always disturbing?
I REALLY liked this part...

"That part of me yet to be born probably said "

could it just be flatulence? what did you eat for lunch?

 

[opal]

I think the thread title needs a little more added to it.. Civil disobedience cannot be discussed *until it's after the fact*

 

[HVACTech]

I think the thread title needs a little more added to it.. Civil disobedience cannot be discussed *until it's after the fact*

Osan "twigged" does that count?

 

[Anti Federalist]

I'm still stunned that CA's thread was deleted/closed.

All he was calling for, is what every one of us is doing every single day anyway.

 

[Schifference]

How did you or the liberty movement improve from your citation? The only accomplishment was to enrich the government.

I got a seat belt ticket today..

state trooper. he is on the passenger side and he asks me. why I am not wearing my seat belt... my response was that Liberty dies when it is not defended.
(after explaining of course that I was not arguing with him) and that in my opinion, Liberty and freedom are two different things. Liberty includes the ability to do things that might not be good for you...
there was a bit more conversation and he said that it burdens the public at the hospital. (drug use)
pregnant pause...
he then explained that it had only recently become a primary offense.
I responded that I considered it a form of tyranny and oppression.. (the trooper was black, I am white)
another pregnant pause.. (oh shit!)
he then said that for the past 7 years he has been hearing that. so much so that it makes him want to vomit..
he then complimented the condition of my truck... I responded that it has 435K miles on it and I have been driving it in this same town for over 11 years.
he then asked how many engines it has had. I said two. (1989 dodge ram)

all in all. he was a decent guy.
I was also in a position to press my luck. small town, well known truck, no beer cans or drugs in the truck. ()
there is a time and a place for everything.