Christofascism

[paulgirl]

"I don't want POTUS to use his poltical power to 'take the nation back for christ.'"

Well, one thing that would need to be fixed is a Christian's eschatology and theology. If one believes that Christ is going to come back when things are "ready" for Him to come back, then there isn't going to be much you can do to thwart their voting decision. These sorts of Christians are going to be called pre-millenialists. I would bet money that Huckabee subscribes, in some fashion, the pre-millenial eschatology. So, he in all likelihood believes that as a follower of Christ it is neccessary to do his part to help bring forth the kingdom of God so that Christ will hurry up and get here. If he does indeed believe in this form of eschatology, then it would make sense that he would want to "take the nation back for Christ". In order to change this position of his, he would need to fix his eschatology. However, any Bible believing Christian wants Christ to return soon.
As a Christian, who is an amillenialist rather than a pre-millenialist, I do have to say at least he is sticking to his principles. I'm no Huckabee supporter, but I can at least understand where he is getting his "take the nation back for Christ" remark.
Only Christ can take the nation back for Himself. He does need to get here, but Scripture clearly states (several times) that nobody can know the day or the hour that He will return. Only the Father knows. The last thing we should do is think we can do something that only God can do. That's called blaspheme and Christians ought not to do such things.

this is one of the only smart things that I have read on this thread. This is definitely one of the main issues (funny enough, post-millenialists want make the nation a kind of theocracy for similarly messed up eschatology)

Please stop trying to "convert" Christians to Dr. Paul when you aren't one and you obviously have no idea what they teach. There is no comparison between Islam and Christianity, and there is no connection between why they want what they want. You will just turn Christians off even more when they hear you espousing the same misinformation that they hear on a daily basis.

 

[adwads]

You will just turn Christians off even more when they hear you espousing the same misinformation that they hear on a daily basis.

I was a Christian for 22 years, so I know what they teach. I read the whole Bible. It was just confirmed by both of you Chrisitans, Huckabee does indeed believe that it is his duty to somehow implement some sort of theocracy in America. This is EXACTLY what Islamofascists preach about Islam. Now, I'm not saying that Christians are committing suicide terrorism, they aren't. All I'm saying is that it is the same line of thinking: making illegal what is considered "sinful" according to some religious text and believing unbelievers to be "lost" and worthless and that they are going to go to hell as punishment for their disbelief.

 

[user]

wait, where do I add hangon? I don't get it

Looks like you did it...twice!

I don't know if they'll like the explanation though.

 

[hard@work]

There is no comparison between Islam and Christianity, and there is no connection between why they want what they want.

Umm... well actually... did you know...


http://www.soundvision.com/info/christmas/10muslimbeliefs.asp

 

[hard@work]

I'm not a Christian, but I was thinking about a strategy to convert Christians (especially away from Huckabee) would be to explain how its not in the tradition of liberty to support a candidate that would legislate Christian morality along the lines of Huckabee or even Romney. Explain how that is what they do in the Muslim world and we call it Islamofascism. You can be Muslim without being an Islamofascist. So, therefore, you can also be Christian without be a Christofascist--without feeling like you need to have all of your Christian morals be federal or consitutitonal laws that apply to everybody just because you think God told you thats the way its supposed to be.

You're not a Christian, so perhaps before you say these things you should speak with a few Christians? Any idea how inflammatory this is? Precisely what would help Huckabee is what you're doing. Ask a Christian and find out why.

 

[adwads]

You're not a Christian, so perhaps before you say these things you should speak with a few Christians? Any idea how inflammatory this is? Precisely what would help Huckabee is what you're doing. Ask a Christian and find out why.

Why does it inflame Christians? So its true then, they actually WANT a candidate that will legislate Chrisitan morality. They want to make it illegal everything they consider sinful???

 

[LibertiORDeth]

That is really good. As I Christian myself, I think that is a good idea.

Ditto.

 

[user]

Why does it inflame Christians? So its true then, they actually WANT a candidate that will legislate Chrisitan morality. They want to make it illegal everything they consider sinful???

Yes, that is essentially true! That's what I was trying to get at earlier.

 

[adwads]

Yes, that is essentially true! That's what I was trying to get at earlier.

Right, it is true...and that is precisly the definition of Christofascism. The best way to have government is to have it based upon maximizing personal liberty--people should have the freedom to act "sinful" as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else.

 

[covenantgal]

"It's scary to me that instead of thinking about the economy, taxes, foreign policy, liberty, the Constitution, etc., Huckabee might spend his time in office trying to prepare the nation for the return of Christ. Creepy."

Actually, it's the return of Christ that should be driving any Christian's view of economy, policy, liberty, etc. . Scripture is clear that it's loyalty and obedience God/Christ as first priority and everything else should be subserviant.
Also, what other post-ers have said is correct if you compare Christianity to Islam you will lose Christian support. You should leave it up to the Christians that are on Ron Paul's side to "convert" other Christians.
My eschatology is driving my decision in '08 and it's working in your favor. Is it creepy to you now??

 

[adwads]

"It's scary to me that instead of thinking about the economy, taxes, foreign policy, liberty, the Constitution, etc., Huckabee might spend his time in office trying to prepare the nation for the return of Christ. Creepy."

Actually, it's the return of Christ that should be driving any Christian's view of economy, policy, liberty, etc. . Scripture is clear that it's loyalty and obedience God/Christ as first priority and everything else should be subserviant.
Also, what other post-ers have said is correct if you compare Christianity to Islam you will lose Christian support. You should leave it up to the Christians that are on Ron Paul's side to "convert" other Christians.
My eschatology is driving my decision in '08 and it's working in your favor. Is it creepy to you now??

You're not creepy to me. Huckabee is.

 

[JohnM]

"I don't want POTUS to use his poltical power to 'take the nation back for christ.'"

Well, one thing that would need to be fixed is a Christian's eschatology and theology. If one believes that Christ is going to come back when things are "ready" for Him to come back, then there isn't going to be much you can do to thwart their voting decision. These sorts of Christians are going to be called pre-millenialists. I would bet money that Huckabee subscribes, in some fashion, the pre-millenial eschatology. So, he in all likelihood believes that as a follower of Christ it is neccessary to do his part to help bring forth the kingdom of God so that Christ will hurry up and get here. If he does indeed believe in this form of eschatology, then it would make sense that he would want to "take the nation back for Christ". In order to change this position of his, he would need to fix his eschatology. However, any Bible believing Christian wants Christ to return soon.

Covenantgal

I've enjoyed reading your intelligent and thoughtful posts. I am not sure, however, about your comments on eschatology. I suspect that most evangelicals Christians, whether premil, postmil, or amil, do not believe that there is much that Christians can do to hasten the return of Christ - at least not in the political realm. (A lot of evangelical Christians believe that we can hasten the return of Christ by evangelism.) Of course there are some evangelicals who do - but this has, historically, been very much a minority position.

I don't know this for certain, but I don't believe it is likely that Mike Huckabee takes that position. I may be wrong, but he strikes me as theologically pretty middle of the road.

(I'm an amil too, by the way. And strangely enough, my reading of the Book of Revelation is one of the reasons I support Ron Paul - because it tells me to be very, very suspicious of the all-powerful state.)

 

[hard@work]

Why does it inflame Christians? So its true then, they actually WANT a candidate that will legislate Chrisitan morality. They want to make it illegal everything they consider sinful???

I am suggesting that you should have foresight enough to speak with people of faith before making an action based on a faith. This is the intelligent and respectful thing to do. If you did think ahead in respect of others then you would not have to ask these questions.

 

[covenantgal]

"I suspect that most evangelicals Christians, whether premil, postmil, or amil, do not believe that there is much that Christians can do to hasten the return of Christ - at least not in the political realm. (A lot of evangelical Christians believe that we can hasten the return of Christ by evangelism.) Of course there are some evangelicals who do - but this has, historically, been very much a minority position.

I don't know this for certain, but I don't believe it is likely that Mike Huckabee takes that position. I may be wrong, but he strikes me as theologically pretty middle of the road."

John,
Thanks for kind words.
It's my assumption (based on experience and nothing else) that the pre-millenial point of view is the majority opinion among evangelicals. I think it's by the political realm that a good number of evangelicals hope to evangelize and convert. (The popular Christian mentality when I began to vote was pervaded with "We need a Christian in office so Christ can reign through him!") So, while Huckabee may be middle of the road (let's say "median"), it seems like the majority of Christians seem to subscribe to the pre-millenialist view, therefore leaving Huckabee in the "median" place with a pre-millenial stint to his approach to politics.

 

[adwads]

"The pervading popular Christian mentality when I began to vote was pervaded with "We need a Christian in office so Christ can reign through him!"

Yes, I'm glad that you admitted what the problem actually is. When we try to convert "Huckabee-style" Christians, we have to remember that they don't actually understand liberty--they want a Christian fascist type government. We have to explain to them how wrong this is, not pander to them and pretend that RP will institute that sort of government.

 

[paulgirl]

I was a Christian for 22 years, so I know what they teach. I read the whole Bible. It was just confirmed by both of you Chrisitans, Huckabee does indeed believe that it is his duty to somehow implement some sort of theocracy in America. This is EXACTLY what Islamofascists preach about Islam. Now, I'm not saying that Christians are committing suicide terrorism, they aren't. All I'm saying is that it is the same line of thinking: making illegal what is considered "sinful" according to some religious text and believing unbelievers to be "lost" and worthless and that they are going to go to hell as punishment for their disbelief.

You have misunderstood.

We are saying that this ISN'T what (historic) Christianity or the Bible teaches, but that some Christians teach this. This is because of poor biblical interpretation or ignoring the Bible altogether, and only other Christians can set them straight. Obviously someone who holds to totally different presuppositions about the Bible and the world in general would not be very compelling.

The Koran blatantly and specifically teaches Jihad -- that is the difference. They argue about who it should be done against, and in what circumstances, but the bottom line is that Muslims who kill infidels are following their text. The Koran teaches that if you cannot win them through conversion, it is appropriate to subdue them through force.

The Bible teaches that converts can only be made in the heart, and that no man can bind another's conscience. Thus, those who make religious war are NOT following the Bible. The Roman Catholic Church has done over and over again throughout history.

 

[paulgirl]

Umm... well actually... did you know...


http://www.soundvision.com/info/christmas/10muslimbeliefs.asp

I know you are trying to be funny, but this is irrelevant. You can come up with 10 facts about many religions that they believe in common, and it doesn't make them the same religion. I am sure that I can think of 10 superficial commonalities between Christianity and Mormonism, or Buddhism and Hinduism, or Judaism and Islam but it doesn't make them the same.

There are no commonalities in what they believe about salvation. The relevant questions would be "what is my status before God" and "what must I do (or not do) about it?" Here there is no commonality.

 

[covenantgal]

Yes, I'm glad that you admitted what the problem actually is. When we try to convert "Huckabee-style" Christians, we have to remember that they don't actually understand liberty--they want a Christian fascist type government. We have to explain to them how wrong this is, not pander to them and pretend that RP will institute that sort of government.

Not so fast . . . people that I know who support Huckabee don't want to an end to freedom. I would say call it short-sightedness on their part.
Let's face it, Ron Paul's positions are pretty extreme and it takes a great deal of research to even begin to think that they could work. The only reason I've had the time to do the research is because I have a boring desk job. I can't really "blame" my Huckabee supporting friends for throwing their support towards Huckabee. I'd do it too if I hadn't spent so much time mulling over my decision to support Ron Paul.

 

[RonPaulFTFW]

Huckabees supporters only support him because they

1. don't understand the meaning behind the issues... what makes a real christian vs the idea of a social christian. Real christians don't go to war for no reason.

2. They don't know much about huckabee and gravitate toward anything that looks safe and familiar.

It's a simple fact of using their own bible and teachings to show them the truth.

 

[hard@work]

I know you are trying to be funny, but this is irrelevant. You can come up with 10 facts about many religions that they believe in common, and it doesn't make them the same religion. I am sure that I can think of 10 superficial commonalities between Christianity and Mormonism, or Buddhism and Hinduism, or Judaism and Islam but it doesn't make them the same.

There are no commonalities in what they believe about salvation. The relevant questions would be "what is my status before God" and "what must I do (or not do) about it?" Here there is no commonality.

I am not trying to be funny, just friendly. I could have posted a much longer interpretation of Christ in the Muslim world, ten points is simply easier to digest. The idea that any "superficial commonalities" would make them "the same" is preposterous, why you would make that analogy I don't know. That does not change that there is a lot of history between the two religions. Perhaps I hold a different view on the connections but one should understand that the history of Islam does indeed have roots within the Christian religion (and not the other way around). It is irrelevant only if you decide it is irrelevant based on your personal criteria. The recognitions of Christ contained within the Quran are hardly superficial in nature.

edit: sorry for the OT