Christians praying for Mandela’s recovery

[Vanilluxe]

It would mean that, if the assumption that the government killed a lot of blacks were true.

In reality, most estimates come in at around at around 2000 blacks killed by the government over the course of 50 years. Meanwhile, nearly 10,000 violent black deaths were at the hands of other blacks just in the last 6 years of apartheid. Regular murders and such were separated out, and these refer only to political killings.

These numbers are taken from a book by Max Coleman - A Crime against Humanity: Analysing Repression of the Apartheid State. This was an official publication of the Human Rights Committee of South Africa, and Coleman was its head (written after apartheid).

That source beats the pants off of wikipedia, which is especially unreliable on the biographies of sacred political cows.

Well, colonialism and the apartheid regime smacked tribes together to form South Africa and just like how the Belgians made the Hutus jealous of the Tutsi's status causing a horrible genocide.

 

[Vanilluxe]

I wish him well, but a little to commie for me to ever admire.

True, he is a communist and I do not admire him much, but as he is a Christian trying his best, I wish him well too.

 

[Danke]

93, not bad.

 

[Zippyjuan]

I'm struck with the irony of all these Paul people defending the Establishment myth about Mandela.

Kind of ironic to be critical of somebody who wanted to get rid of an opressive government which denied freedom and rights to a majority of its own citizens which had people thrown in jail or killed for no real reaons and used police force to impose their will.

If he was hateful, he had the opportunity for vengence when he became the first black leader of South Africa but he urged people to not be vengeful. He promoted unity via the Truth and Reconciliation Committee. http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/

The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) was set up by the Government of National Unity to help deal with what happened under apartheid. The conflict during this period resulted in violence and human rights abuses from all sides. No section of society escaped these abuses.

The TRC was based on the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, No 34 of 1995 (pdf)

"... a commission is a necessary exercise to enable South Africans to come to terms with their past on a morally accepted basis and to advance the cause of reconciliation."
Mr Dullah Omar, former Minister of Justice

The TRC effected its mandate through 3 committees: the Amnesty Committee, Reparation and Rehabilitation (R&R) Committee and Human Rights Violations (HRV) Committee....more

The Register of Reconciliation gave members of the public a chance to express their regret at failing to prevent human rights violations and to demonstrate their commitment to reconciliation...more

It would have been difficult for him to have done some of the things he is accused of here when he was in prison for 27 years. If Ron Paul was a black South African he would be forced to use different tactics than he can in the freer United States to try to create change in government. When you are not allowed to be a part of the system, you need different tactics than when you can operate within it. There were certainly much more militant members of the ANC than Mandela.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgcTvoWjZJU

 

[smhbbag]

which had people thrown in jail or killed for no real reaons and used police force to impose their will.

SA security forces were responsible for the death of 2000 people over the course of 42 years. Remove those who were actively engaging in terrorism and murder that they were right to kill, and the number is even less. Apartheid was wrong, but it was also....pretty much nothing on the scale of evil-governments-of-the-world.

Of course I'm not going to defend forced segregation, but in the face of the savagery of the opposition to the South African government, they showed remarkable and repeated restraint in the face of people who were much worse than them.

The black population nearly tripled over those 42 years. That shows a government not nearly so hostile as many suppose. Life expectancy among blacks in South Africa was nearly approaching that of Western Europe by the end of apartheid.

Now that those evil bastards are gone, South Africa is the rape capital of the world.

Since Mandela came to power, more than 3000 white farmers have been murdered by black vigilantes, which exceeds the total number of blacks killed by SA security forces in 42 years of apartheid.

Every year, polling shows more and more South Africans (both white and black in roughly equal percentages) are saying they preferred the less corrupt, more socially stable, cheaper government, and safer society, that they had under apartheid.

 

[Vanilluxe]

SA security forces were responsible for the death of 2000 people over the course of 42 years. Remove those who were actively engaging in terrorism and murder that they were right to kill, and the number is even less. Apartheid was wrong, but it was also....pretty much nothing on the scale of evil-governments-of-the-world.

Of course I'm not going to defend forced segregation, but in the face of the savagery of the opposition to the South African government, they showed remarkable and repeated restraint in the face of people who were much worse than them.

The black population nearly tripled over those 42 years. That shows a government not nearly so hostile as many suppose. Life expectancy among blacks in South Africa was nearly approaching that of Western Europe by the end of apartheid.

Now that those evil bastards are gone, South Africa is the rape capital of the world.

Since Mandela came to power, more than 3000 white farmers have been murdered by black vigilantes, which exceeds the total number of blacks killed by SA security forces in 42 years of apartheid.

Every year, polling shows more and more South Africans (both white and black in roughly equal percentages) are saying they preferred the less corrupt, more socially stable, cheaper government, and safer society, that they had under apartheid.

Most of the times there are no answers to problems in our society. Things get thrown at us in life, and we must make lemonade with what we have, especially given that the GOP succeeded in not letting Ron Paul win a state.

 

[robert68]

Then it would be an inconvenient truth to learn that blacks killed each other 10 times more often than whites killed them during the 'years of struggle.'

Black tribal violence and power-plays between the ANC and Inkatha Freedom Party accounted for the vast, vast majority of killings in the last decade of apartheid. People like Mandela are the primary reason so many of them died, not the whites.

Countdown to being called a racist....3....2....1.....and GO!

Surprise, suprise!

Fearing an erosion of his power, Buthelezi collaborated with the South African Defence Force and received military training for Zulu militia from SADF special forces starting in the 1980s as part of Operation Marion. IFP members were involved in several massacres in the run-up to South Africa's first democratic elections, including the Trust Feed massacre on December 3rd, 1988 and the Boipatong massacre on June 17th 1992.

Many of the attacks carried out by the Inkatha militants were passively and, at times, actively supported by the South African police force, probably as a result of a coincidence of interest in ensuring that the ANC did not gain political dominance in the coming liberation.

 

[ZenBowman]

I'm struck with the irony of all these Paul people defending the Establishment myth about Mandela.

You my friend, are a total idiot.

Mandela was only violent against the supporters of a state who violently oppressed his people. And once he gained power, he did not exercise the option to oppress his former oppressors.

And you glorify the founding fathers, many of whom oppressed people who had done them no harm.

 

[leonster]

It would mean that, if the assumption that the government killed a lot of blacks were true.

In reality, most estimates come in at around at around 2000 blacks killed by the government over the course of 50 years. Meanwhile, nearly 10,000 violent black deaths were at the hands of other blacks just in the last 6 years of apartheid. Regular murders and such were separated out, and these refer only to political killings.

These numbers are taken from a book by Max Coleman - A Crime against Humanity: Analysing Repression of the Apartheid State. This was an official publication of the Human Rights Committee of South Africa, and Coleman was its head (written after apartheid).

That source beats the pants off of wikipedia, which is especially unreliable on the biographies of sacred political cows.

Assuming your numbers to be correct... sorry, totally unconvinced.

Government killing people is fundamentally different from citizens murdering each other. Obama just ordered a couple of Middle Eastern American citizens murdered by drones... that's irrelevant, right, because those are only two people while thousands of murders happen each year?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. Yeah sometimes people kill each other, etc. Doesn't mean it's ok for the government to do it.

Mandela may have been a flawed man, true. He may have been labeled a terrorist for attacking government institutions--isn't that a good thing, though? Attacking an oppressive government? But sorry, you guys lost me on this one--what he (not single-handedly, of course) accomplished was a huge net win for liberty human rights, in much the same way as the American Revolution (though also imperfect) was.

Edit: I say the last sentence, above, even with the knowledge that he significantly reduced economic freedoms (socialism), etc. However that may be... putting everyone on the same level without regard to stupid distinctions such as skin color is a much bigger issue to me.

 

[ZenBowman]

Assuming your numbers to be correct... sorry, totally unconvinced.

Government killing people is fundamentally different from citizens murdering each other. Obama just ordered a couple of Middle Eastern American citizens murdered by drones... that's irrelevant, right, because those are only two people while thousands of murders happen each year?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. Yeah sometimes people kill each other, etc. Doesn't mean it's ok for the government to do it.

Mandela may have been a flawed man, true. He may have been labeled a terrorist for attacking government institutions--isn't that a good thing, though? Attacking an oppressive government? But sorry, you guys lost me on this one--what he (not single-handedly, of course) accomplished was a huge net win for liberty and human rights, in much the same way as the American Revolution (though also imperfect) was.

Exactly.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Mandela, and his wife for him when he was in prison, murdered countless other Africans and many of them through necklacing.

He was a Communist and far from a hero.

My how this forum has gone downhill.

 

[smhbbag]

Assuming your numbers to be correct... sorry, totally unconvinced.

They aren't my numbers. They are the numbers of the Human Rights Committee of South Africa in their official report. Given who created them, and why, they have every incentive to inflate, not deflate, the number killed by the apartheid government.

 

[Stupified]

He may have been labeled a terrorist for attacking government institutions--isn't that a good thing, though? Attacking an oppressive government?

Apparently not if the usurper is a communist. That seems to be the argument here.


"V" from V For Vendetta killed hundreds of government workers and blew up a building (just like Mandela) in order to overthrow an oppressive government, but I see quotes from that movie all over this forum.

 

[Vanilluxe]

Mandela, and his wife for him when he was in prison, murdered countless other Africans and many of them through necklacing.

He was a Communist and far from a hero.

My how this forum has gone downhill.

Uh, Mandela was in prison and his wife was acting independent of him, and she also had an affair with another person which then Mandela divorced her after he was released. Mandela is actually considered a national hero in South Africa; I personally don't think Mandela is a hero, but he is not a Hitler either, and this forum is not going downhill, people simply disagree with you, so we can have a discussion.

 

[Zap!]

Mandela, and his wife for him when he was in prison, murdered countless other Africans and many of them through necklacing.

He was a Communist and far from a hero.

My how this forum has gone downhill.

Exactly. Try being a white farmer in South Africa today. It is very dangerous.

 

[leonster]

They aren't my numbers. They are the numbers of the Human Rights Committee of South Africa in their official report. Given who created them, and why, they have every incentive to inflate, not deflate, the number killed by the apartheid government.

Like I said... I'm assuming they're correct, and not challenging them.

My point was, even if the numbers were ten times worse than they are, it still doesn't change the fact that gov'ts killing people is fundamentally different from citizens murdering each other. Unless everyone suddenly believes in utilitarianism...

 

[Zippyjuan]

Under Aparteid 80% of the population was restricted to less than 20% of the land- and that land was poor to begin with- not good for growing or much of anything else. Most of the jobs available were basically as servants to the rich white folks who controlled the other 80% of the country. Yeah- they were better off under aparteid and Mandella was somehow evil for trying to change that?

 

[ZenBowman]

Under Aparteid 80% of the population was restricted to less than 20% of the land- and that land was poor to begin with- not good for growing or much of anything else. Most of the jobs available were basically as servants to the rich white folks who controlled the other 80% of the country. Yeah- they were better off under aparteid and Mandella was somehow evil for trying to change that?

People here are morons, they claim the American people are sheep for not revolting against the government, yet despise actual revolutionaries.

At least Rothbard was clear, regardless of political views, resistance, even violent resistance against oppression was justified.

http://mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_3/3_3_1.pdf

Che is dead, and we all mourn him. Why? How is it that
so many libertarians mourn this man; how is it that we
just received a letter from a briIIiant young libertarian,
a former objectivist and Birchite, which said, in part:
"if they did finally get Che . . . I am sure that his memory
will live to haunt both Latin America and the U. S. for
decades to come. Long live Che!. How come? Surely
not because Che was a Communist. Precious few people
in this country or anywhere else will mourn the passing,
for example, of Brezhnev, Kosygin, or Ulbricht, Com-
munist leaders all. No, it is certainly not Che's Com-
munist goals which made his name a byword and a legend
throughout the world, and throughout the New Left in
this country.
What made Che such an heroic figure for our time is
that he, more than any man of our epoch or even of our
century, was the living embodiment of the principle of
Revolution.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

White people in South Africa are treated worse than Ron Paul delegates at a Nevada GOP convention.

 

[ZenBowman]

White people in South Africa are treated worse than Ron Paul delegates at a Nevada GOP convention.

The difference is that Ron Paul delegates don't have a century long history of oppressing the GOP.