Cantor, Brat, and the immigration issue....

[RandallFan]

The massive increase in legal immigration is probably more opposed than amnesty.

Most of the discussion will be opposition to what Big Business and Obama wants.

Dave Brat hit Cantor on high skill and low skilled workers.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Move your ass down here and then we'll chat.

Chicago is the murder capital of the country. I grew up in the south side, near Cicero and 20 minutes from Englewood. I'm very familiar with what gang environments look and feel like.

 

[rpfocus]

In regards to taxation, Mexico is much more free than the US. The majority of Mexicans do not pay a cent in income tax nor do they declare anything. Also, Mexico's tax revenues as a percentage of GDP is much smaller than the US's.

And how much do they pay out via corruption?

VIVA LOS FEDERALES!

 

[Tywysog Cymru]

Pretty sure the same argument was used against the Chinese, Irish, Italians, and Polish during the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Yes, and they came from countries with much worse governments than that of modern Mexico.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security. For some of you who don't live in border states, who don't live in large cities where cartel members are relocating to, who don't live in large cities where every crime you can think of is through the roof, for those who don't have to feed, clothe and jail these criminals when they do get caught committing crime, I say you don't know wtf it's about. I bet if criminals were pouring into your state by the thousands and you were told tough doo doo, if you could no longer feel safe going to the grocery store, etc., we would hear a different story. There comes a point when you either protect your own borders or just have a frickin free for all. What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point? Oh yeah...I guess I can arm myself with an AR15 when I need to go get gas but I would probably get shot by the cops.

Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you? How about we just opened up the 3rd Air Force base to house all these illegal kids? Think that's free?

Where do I even start.

#1 - "I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security." Yes, you are advocating for walls because you are denying human beings the freedom to move. It may not be a physical wall but you are forcibly blocking people out one way or the other.

#2 - "For some of you who don't live in border states [...] I say you don't know wtf it's about." I don't need to live in a border state to know that immigration is not the root of the problems there. End drug prohibition and you strike a blow to the cartels. It's the same problems I'm familiar with in Chicago.

#3 - "What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point?" Rudy Giulianni, is that you? Guess we better trade in the rest of our freedoms for security according to your logic.

#4 - "Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you?" - Um, how about you not steal my tax dollars and just allow people to freely interact with one another on their private property?

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

You're out of touch just like Rand.

Black youth unemployment is 30 percent. Hispanic is over 20 percent, but Rand wants to import millions of new unskilled uneducated people so big business and big agriculture can have cheap labor.

Immigration will doom Rand. He's out of touch with working class people.

If you lose your job to an "unskilled uneducated people", you are a loser. Plain and simple.

 

[Carlybee]

Chicago is the murder capital of the country. I grew up in the south side, near Cicero and 20 minutes from Englewood. I'm very familiar with what gang environments look and feel like.

Well sorry then, but we will just have to agree to disagree. It would be one thing if we were allowed to protect ourselves but nowadays you are likely to be the one jailed for that so all bets are off. I can't do anything about criminals who already live here but I don't have to like the current open door policy. Border patrol agents are on record saying the majority of the ones coming in are criminal elements. Do our tax dollars not pay for national security ? Why do we even bother with legal immigration? My husband had to jump through hoops to immigrate from Canada. I guess I should've marred a vato..my bad.

 

[Carlybee]

Where do I even start.

#1 - "I'm not advocating for walls. I'm advocating for security." Yes, you are advocating for walls because you are denying human beings the freedom to move. It may not be a physical wall but you are forcibly blocking people out one way or the other.

#2 - "For some of you who don't live in border states [...] I say you don't know wtf it's about." I don't need to live in a border state to know that immigration is not the root of the problems there. End drug prohibition and you strike a blow to the cartels. It's the same problems I'm familiar with in Chicago.

#3 - "What's more important to you? Your family's safety or making an ideological point?" Rudy Giulianni, is that you? Guess we better trade in the rest of our freedoms for security according to your logic.

#4 - "Do I need to point out our tax dollars are paying for border patrol agents to sit on their butts and look the other way? How's that waste of tax dollars sitting with you?" - Um, how about you not steal my tax dollars and just allow people to freely interact with one another on their private property?

I could give a damn if cartel members have freedom. My taxes pay for Texas property. Juan Gonzalez of the Acme Cartel does not pay taxes for Texas property. He just comes here to traffic drugs, traffic people, and commit other various and sundry crimes. Therefore he is treading on me and on my state's sovereignty. It's easy to say end the drug war but that's not happening is it? So in the meantime we have cops turning on citizens and ignoring illegal alien criminals. At one time it may have been mostly just people coming here for work but that is not necessarily the case any longer.

Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

 

[RandallFan]

If you lose your job to an "unskilled uneducated people", you are a loser. Plain and simple.

That does not work politically. That's the most potent part of the debate that the open borders people are heartless.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

That does not work politically. That's the most potent part of the debate that the open borders people are heartless.

I wasn't talking about politics, I was calling out bullshit emotional tactics that are used by anti-immigration proponents.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

Do I gotta wear a clan hat to join this conversation?

 

[Southron]

If you lose your job to an "unskilled uneducated people", you are a loser. Plain and simple.

If the American citizen is a casuality on the road to libertopia, so be it, eh?

 

[Giuliani was there on 911]

There's something seriously wrong with you if you want to continue to steal my money and tell me who I can and can't interact with on my own property.

What , I'm stealing your money ? First off I don't think you even own any property but your property doesn't exist independent of all other properties . You can't do anything you want on your property if it harms others . Whether you like it or not the USA is a nation and we're all apart of it. It's not some no man's land where anyone can just come set up shop

You mean like the same freedom loving white people that got behind Mitt Romney, John McCain, and George W. Bush? White Power!

Well actually yeah , all those guys may be lying scum but they all campaigned on conservative principles . The sheep had no choice but to vote for them. I'm pretty sure if the media treated Ron Paul with the same respect they treated Romney and them that all those whites would have voted for him instead

Bullshit. It's the Mexicans I see in Chicago fighting the alderman over food cart licensing and permits.

But no, you're right, they're lazy tyrannical leaches.

lol stop being so naive

Pretty sure the same argument was used against the Chinese, Irish, Italians, and Polish during the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Do you seriously believe in egalitarianism ?

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

Illegal "immigration" - and I would contest that the word immigration is appropriate here - is a basic Rule of Law issue. It is one thing to argue that the laws should be changed; it is quite another to discard entirely the idea of it, along with ideas like national sovereignty and self-governance.

What has been happening in the mass movement of people from Central America in particular is not immigration, but colonization. Immigration implies an intent to assimilate, and that intent is not present.

Why does it imply the intent of assimilation? Can someone not enjoy freedom and the opportunity freedom presents to practice their own beliefs/practices/way of life? A Constitution should protect our natural rights, so there should be no need to fear different people under the pretense of being forced to "their kind of different".

Ron Paul noted that while open borders may be the ideal, it is not possible in practice as long as the US maintains a welfare state.

If you are for open borders while a welfare state is in place, you are not helping the cause of liberty. The welfare incentives must go first, then we can open borders. And when that time comes, and we do open borders, we will get a very different kind of immigrant with a completely different set of expectations than the people who are arriving today.

There is no need to pick one to do first and promise to do the other later. Two birds one stone would be the saying for it, if you actually believed in open borders.

 

[RandallFan]

Which liberty candidates ran and won on supporting immigration reform or expanding it? Flake had to oppose rewarding illegals to win the primary and not spill enough third party votes. Flake is the most hated Senator after McCain. Kelly Ayotte is number 3 because she is a neocon and for amnesty.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

The "browner" this country gets the less liberty there will be. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but for the most part the only people who care about liberty and limited gov are white people

I wish more anti immigrant advocates were this honest.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

It shouldn't be. Without the Rule of Law we are in a Hobbesian state of nature where there are no rights you cannot guarantee yourself by force.

Speaking of Hobbes, I strongly recommend reading Leviathan as one of the most significant works of libertarian literature ever created, and one that has deeply informed me of the foundation upon which liberty rests.

No Rule of Law = no liberty. In this, opposing illegal immigration is a vital interest of all libertarians - even if they support open borders in principle.

This is the furthest thing from liberty. This is saying we should violate people's rights because it is written to a piece of paper. This is saying we should sacrifice our own rights because it is written to a piece of paper. And we're doing so in the name of preserving our rights?

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

Bad laws should be changed - the existence of bad laws does not imply that the Rule of Law itself is also bad. Illegal immigration - and official government acceptance and even encouragement thereof - strikes not against a bad law, but the very concept of being ruled by laws rather than men.

It is one thing for citizens to defy laws, quite another when the government itself does it. The latter case is called despotism.

So we should be more worried about the government not persecuting innocent individuals, than those innocent individuals not being persecuted?

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

Unbridled immigration keeps wages down and destroys the middle class.

Not true.

And even if it were, it would be no reason to abridge freedom. There is no right to a high wage or middle class lifestyle.

 

[P3ter_Griffin]

I have never heard Rand say he wants to import any unskilled labour. What Rand has said is that those inside the US should be given temporary work visas. They're here anyway, they aren't going to be deported, so let's give them temporary work visas.

Now that is just kickin the can while straddling the crap out of the fence.