Can We Start Thinking Realistically Now?

[tfelice]

The movement ain't over... what we need now is to replace Congress. There's 80,000 of us on meetup now. We have more voting power to change Congress...

There wasn't enough voting power to win a single county in NH was there? What makes you think you can change Congress?

 

[Gustogus]

What about a PAC?

Someone else can spread the message. That doesn't need Ron Paul. The meetup groups can spread the message. Who ever the third party candidates are can spread the message.

Ron Paul is however needed to fill a valuable congress chair. He is the one with the best chance to win a congress seat. Anyone can spread the message. Not anyone can win a congress seat. Ron Paul running for 3rd party will cause more harm to the movement than good.

Question Bill.

Where I see what your trying to do, I'm curious as to the real mechanics. While I understand the want for getting congressmen elected, why not take Dr. Pauls idea of "changing the Republican party" and running with it.
Forming a republican type PAC in the vein of a Moveon.org could probably make a lot of headway in forming a voting block that forces republicans to shift their voting and their ideologies.

Along with the message,(which being a libertarian I've heard before) it was Ron Pauls honesty and integrity that drew me to the campaign. integrity.org could perhaps make stronger impact as a republican voting block then anywhere else..


as an aside, this is just me brainstorming, As much as I support ron paul and will be driving friends to the polls during my primary, I also would liek to look to the future while we still have a strong presence in the here and now.

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

Let's get ready for a third party run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ron2Win]

Let's get ready for a third party run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With a hand count vote

 

[stevedasbach]

Paulites supposedly will crawl over broken glass, through blizzards, etc. to vote for Paul. But as soon as there some disappointing election results in two states, some are ready to throw in the towel.

Is the job harder? -- Yes. Does the campaign need to make changes? Yes. But I'm certainly not ready to quit and I hope you aren't either.

Whatever happens, this campaign is the foundation for the next stage in the fight to take back our government. The stronger the foundation, the greater the chances of long-tern success.

 

[Gustogus]

Dfa?

A better example may be the DFA (Deans old movement turned into a progressive grassroots movement PAC)

how about the Integrity in Politics PAC (IIP, the Ron Paul movement turned grassroots liberty movement)?

 

[GryphonsClaw]

I believe 3rd party is the best chance for Ron as stated before. Don't give up here though, keep going strong, turn that 8-10 into 15-20%. Get the momentum going, make that news story of what will Ron Paul do. How about that for national media? A week after everything is wrapped up having the question in mainstream media of what is Ron going to do. Maybe we should donate and take out an ad on the big news sites and papers?

I discount any argument that says no one is going to vote 3rd party. I know a lot of people that just vote 3rd party to say no to the other two. You don't think there are independents out there that are not in the polls today and like what Paul has to say. You could be right cause maybe they have never heard it. Let's make them hear it, then see where we are at. You will realize then that we have 20-30% and have a legit shot at the 3rd party. Something like 50% of this nation is independent or doesn't vote. Don't give up here, let's take a big state. We've had 3 of the littlest states go. Let's get the biggest ones.

Paul needs money. Suggest new advertising ideas to his campaign. This man has not let down on us, don't let down on him.

 

[cottonmouth]

He will not win as a 3rd party. He won't even come close. If this election proves on thing it's that Americans are still unwilling to go with the candidate that the media says has no chance. We might be able to do better than Nader did. We might even be able to surprise everyone with double digit numbers. But there are still too many republicans to take over that party and there are too many democrats scared of voting 3rd party and causing another nader. It's just not going to happen for Ron Paul in a 3rd party. America is not ready for it yet.

Paul will lose and he will spend the rest of his life living a civilian life. I'd rather put Paul in a position he can actually win which is his congressional seat. I'd rather Paul continue his fight for freedom. Even if he doesn't have much of a voice in congress.

The best course of action would be to help Paul get a bigger voice by getting him some allies in congress.

Think about what's best for the movement. Not what's best for Ron Paul.

You're a dumbass. In Texas, he can and will run for both offices simultaneously (as an incumbent). It is called the LBJ rule.

 

[stevedasbach]

Fantasy land isn't thinking that a 3rd party isn't the best option. Will he win as a third party, no, but it is the best way to continue getting the message out over the next ten months. It is also the best way to get enough votes to guarantee ballot access to a third party, access debates, and to be eligible for matching funds. It also gives the grass roots a party to support for the next four years and potentially get some people in congress, or at least in state houses and senates over the next four years. If the grass roots following Paul were to nunite behing Paul as a libertarian candidate and continue to support the libertarian party for the next four years, the libertarians could potentially win several congressional seats in 2010 and 2012, it would also force the republicans and democrats to change their platforms if a viable third party movement were to form.

The threshold for general election debates is 15%. We won't get there with 4% national support. We need to start national TV advertising if we want those numbers to go up.

 

[DrNoZone]

Might I remind the OP that the polls ALL predicted Obama with a double digit lead over Clinton today? And look what happened, she won with at least a 3 point lead. The polls are NOT always right.

 

[Uggamugg]

Regardless of a win, that mentality would be beneficial. We need to put ourselves in a position where we can stand together without one centralized figure acting as a tornado. Attracting major attention but disappearing within moments. Spreading our message and political might would be the obvious, and crucial, endeavor we should all seek. Putting those with relentless loyalty in power could bring about the changes we desire. It would be a flanking procedure on our enemies and obstacles alike.

 

[tarabyte]

I agree and disagree with the original poster.

I agree we need to get out there and start getting libertarian/constitutionalists in congress.

I disagree that the campaign is over already. It ain't over til it's over.

3/50 is not enough to start giving up.

 

[The Tao Of Bill]

Question Bill.

Where I see what your trying to do, I'm curious as to the real mechanics. While I understand the want for getting congressmen elected, why not take Dr. Pauls idea of "changing the Republican party" and running with it.
Forming a republican type PAC in the vein of a Moveon.org could probably make a lot of headway in forming a voting block that forces republicans to shift their voting and their ideologies.

Along with the message,(which being a libertarian I've heard before) it was Ron Pauls honesty and integrity that drew me to the campaign. integrity.org could perhaps make stronger impact as a republican voting block then anywhere else..


as an aside, this is just me brainstorming, As much as I support ron paul and will be driving friends to the polls during my primary, I also would liek to look to the future while we still have a strong presence in the here and now.

This is also a good idea. Which is why I really would advice against a 3rd party run. The change the republican party method seems to suit us pretty well. And we kinda lose that appearance by running as a 3rd party. We will not gain support we will lose it.

I also like your idea of starting a moveon.org type of group. But we need to learn the lesson of that group and the lesson of the way we've been portraying ourselves. We need to tune down the aggressive dooms day talk a bit. And we need to stop calling people names and running a negative campaign. It's obvious that the biggest turn off for people on Ron Paul is the supporters. And heck I don't blame them. We're loud. We're obnoxious. In a lot of ways this has brought us success. But I think we got everyone we can with this type of philosophy and we need to start acting like Ron Paul who refuses to personally attack anyone.

The reason I say this is because moveon.org is becoming more and more of a liability than anything that is helping any sort of movement. And it's because of their agressive tactics. It's kind of like blowback.

So we as a group need to be a bit less angry and look at ourselves as educators and not purgers or soldiers. People will take us more seriously if we can handle ourselves in a mature manner.

On digg I have been a regular Ron Paul supporter. And yet I have gotten good compliments from anti Paul people. They say I make sense and that I truly know how to speak the message without coming off as an asshole trying to force his views. Though I still get many haters regardless I think I've seen more success in convincing people through less aggressive tones.

Drop the conspiracy theories. Drop the political labels and name calling. Just talk about freedom and following the constitution.

Might I remind the OP that the polls ALL predicted Obama with a double digit lead over Clinton today? And look what happened, she won with at least a 3 point lead. The polls are NOT always right.

Clinton also has us beat in 2nd choice votes by 10s of thousands of votes. So she has plenty of room to swing around like that. We don't.

You're a dumbass. In Texas, he can and will run for both offices simultaneously (as an incumbent). It is called the LBJ rule.

Why do you feel the need to call a fellow supporter names. Is your life really that angry? Thanks for pointing out something I already knew quite well from an interview I saw that said Ron Paul was simultaneously running for president and congress. But it's kinda hard to win votes in your district when you are trying to focus on a nation wide campaign at the same time. It will only decrease his chances of winning in congress because he won't be able to focus 100% on his congressional campaign. I suggest you leave the name calling for the playground. Because when you start calling people dumbasses who are only trying to help you wind up doing nothing but proving that you are in fact the dumbass because you just scared someone away who was trying to help your ass. I suggest you learn some manners if you want to be someone who actually helps to bring this movement forward. Otherwise you should probably keep quiet because you're probably causing more harm than good.

 

[Gustogus]

DFA instead of Moveon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_for_America


I posted this in another thread, but instead of moveon as a model, how about looking to the DFA.

From everything I've read, the DFA grew out of the deaniacs, they formed a PAC and began spending their political capital on pushing cherry picked candidates that fit there agenda within the Democratic party. (only 12 at first)

Obama was one of these candidates.

This is a political model I think we could easily co-opt. Even if Dr. Paul does win the presidency he is going to need a solidified base to start pushing his agenda, we are that base, and I think this model would fit us quite well.

 

[philistineau]

Agreed - we need to plan for the future. There are enough of us who are passionate enough, that we can make a difference - even if it takes a few years for the sheeple to wake up.

 

[CJP]

There wasn't enough voting power to win a single county in NH was there? What makes you think you can change Congress?

A small but dedicated regional or national group of people can have a devestating impact on a congressional race. I've been a part of this kind of thing before, and it is a beautiful thing to behold.

Basically, we pick a few vulnerable congressmen on the opposite side of an important issue -- say HR 1955 -- and basically end their political careers for them, light a bolt from the blue. A sudden, massive grassroots effort originating from outside any campaign, and concentrated on one little district can be the political equivalent of "shock and awe". As a bonus, we automatically elect someone who knows who got them into office -- us!

After that, if our movement gives a friendly call to any congressman over some issue important to us, you can bet they'll take our call (after they change their Depends.)

 

[The Tao Of Bill]

A small but dedicated regional or national group of people can have a devestating impact on a congressional race. I've been a part of this kind of thing before, and it is a beautiful thing to behold.

Basically, we pick a few vulnerable congressmen on the opposite side of an important issue -- say HR 1955 -- and basically end their political careers for them, light a bolt from the blue. A sudden, massive grassroots effort originating from outside any campaign, and concentrated on one little district can be the political equivalent of "shock and awe". As a bonus, we automatically elect someone who knows who got them into office -- us!

After that, if our movement gives a friendly call to any congressman over some issue important to us, you can bet they'll take our call (after they change their Depends.)

Yes. This is something that can be accomplished with the right organization in the right areas. I think we should begin focusing attention on congress. Keep attention on the white house until super tuesday. If super tuesday is a bust I say Ron Paul drops out there and begins focusing on winning back his congress position and we start campaigning for our local Ron Pauls.

 

[scbissler]

I agree completely. If he can pull enough votes as a third party and the grass roots can continue to push with him as the spokesman for the next four years, we could make serious difference in congressional runs and possibly the white house in 2012. Think of the potential of putting libertarians in congress in an off-year election when Ron Paul republicans/libertarians show up in droves, but the rest of the republican party shows up in their typical fashion for an off-year election. I think a third party run and this grass roots movement to stay alive and fight for the party Paul chooses for the next four years is the best possible outcome at this point.

I've always believed that this was the best hope.

 

[CJP]

I've always believed that this was the best hope.

Sorry, but the LP has tried the 3rd-party thing for years and it simply doesn't work. (Ron Paul's 5% to 10% show of support after one year, versus the LP's flat 0.5% after 30 years should be proof enough.)

In all of our history, new parties never succeed unless one of the two existing major parties completely implodes, leaving basically just one party. The mathematics of the simple plurality winner-take-all voting system we have now ensures it.

If this movement is to become a party, we must methodically take over an existing major party, the obvious choice being the Republicans, for a number of reasons.

 

[Electric Church]

Both Iowa and New Hampshire have proven one thing.

The polls are correct.

I repeat. The polls are correct. They might not have been able to project winners a month ago but within a few days of primaries they are nearly dead on.

Though we shouldn't give up on Ron Paul we should start prepareing for how to move forward without the help of the whitehouse.

If there is anyone on this forum who has some decent political qualifications I would like to ask that you consider running for a congressional seat in your district. I have started a thread in the general politics forum called "Plan B" ( you can look it up in my profile) where we can compile a list of congressmen running that will run with a strict constitutionalist platform.


We also need to encourage Ron Paul not to run as an independent. I know this will disappoint some of you but it's important that we put Ron Paul in a position where he can continue the fight. And congress is where he needs to do that. Vote for him for president and if he does not make it then support in any way you can for his congressional re-election. And let's push this movement forward. This time we can hopefully get Ron Paul some allies.

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