Can socialism work in small and well-educated countries?

[Paulitician]

China is more free market than us.....

HAHAHAHAHA......

Doesn't the government own 60% of EVERY corporation in China?

Much as I dislike corporations.....I don't think I have ever seen that in the USA......

Yeah, that's pretty dumb to say China is more free market than the US. I can only think of two places in China that are highly capitalistic and that's Singapore and Hong Kong. But the reason China's growth has been so explosive is because they've been implementing market mechanisms into the economy. They still have a lot of regulations and the state owns many businesses there. A decent discription of China is probably Authoritarian Communists on the civil scale and State Capitalists on the economic scale.

 

[Minestra di pomodoro]

China is more free market than us.....

HAHAHAHAHA......

Doesn't the government own 60% of EVERY corporation in China?

Much as I dislike corporations.....I don't think I have ever seen that in the USA......

No, they don't. Their system has worked very well actually, they have "special economic zones" like Hong Kong, Shenzen and Macau where there is total free-market capitalism so the country prospers without tainting the mainland where socialist ideals are upheld.

 

[Minestra di pomodoro]

The beauty of a free market economy is that people can easily forum voluntary communes within the economy if they like.

No way in hell you can have your own little free market economy under a socialist government.

Wrong. See: China.

 

[[email protected]]

You don't have to convince me.....I understand 1000% that socialism always devolves into a tool of tyranny......

That is why I am a constitutionalist.....

I admire the forefathers of the USA.....(Especially Thomas Jefferson).....they discussed, debated, and lived thru a very politicaly volatile time.....It was soooo long before I was born.....but now I understand why they were so careful to frame the constitution the way they did.....they understood so many failed politics.....yet they still made a constitution that took hundreds of years to put in danger.......

I know our constitutution is in danger....and it is time for all who understand why it was written the way it was.......to stand up for it.....we need everyone on board who understands, to buy us more time to put down the globalists......we are on the cusp of driving them into the background and not being a threat for 15 years.....

We are almost there......lets finish them off and buy us another 15 years......

Yeah, but what you're saying is that the implementation of socialism is benign and just evolves into something bad. What I'm saying is that it is bad from the start and used as a tool of monopolizing power from day 1.

 

[DriftWood]

I think socialism and democracy works less badly in small countries. If a country is small enough all politics is local.

However.. i dont think socialism will work even for small countries in the future.. globalization means the world is more like one big country. With high taxes.. socialist countries will not be able to compete. Without high taxes there is no socialism. Also with relatively open borders and generous benifits, people might be tempted to take advantage. There is a nasty immigration backlash in denmark at the moment.. If they just cut taxes and benifits, immigration would not be a problem, but a good thing for future demographics.

Cheers

 

[yongrel]

Can it be an efficient system on a small scale? Perhaps.

Can it be a just system on any scale? Absolutely not.

 

[winston_blade]

Slaves can be happy too.



Socialism is immoral because it uses force to take from one to give to another.

Exactly. It doesn't work because it detrimental to your freedom as a human being. So even if you are well taken care of, it doesn't work. Anything without freedom is useless.

 

[DriftWood]

Wrong. See: China.

Well, by most accounts China is still a relatively anti-free market economy. Lots of price fixing, regulations on the economy, high tariffs on imports, weak property rights etc. Its like an early version of todays capitalist countries. However its much more capitalist, and less comunist, today than 20 years ago. It will get here eventually.

Probably given its huge size, even this small step towars a free market economy, has had such a big impact on the world.

Ranked 126 of 157, in a list of the freest economies in the world, by heritage foundation..

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=China

I do agree that the free market and socialism are at odds. Socialism means high taxes or tariffs (to pay for a big govt), and a regulated economy (to keep control of prices). A free market economy means the opposite.

Cheers

 

[steve005]

Slaves can be happy too.



Socialism is immoral because it uses force to take from one to give to another.

i like that

 

[Kade]

But isn't socialism a middle ground between capitalism and communism? Denmark still has markets for things, but their health care and education are socialized.

You are correct. They are a free country, and they have a mixed economy. Some things, like medicine and education, are socialized, it does not take away from the innovation that Denmark has shown recently in both, nor has it taken from the market. Thus, common sense prevails, and Denmark is a free, non-totalitarian, European country with happy people. ...and no they are not slaves. In fact, quiet the opposite to our cubicle culture.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Yeah, that's pretty dumb to say China is more free market than the US. I can only think of two places in China that are highly capitalistic and that's Singapore and Hong Kong. But the reason China's growth has been so explosive is because they've been implementing market mechanisms into the economy. They still have a lot of regulations and the state owns many businesses there. A decent discription of China is probably Authoritarian Communists on the civil scale and State Capitalists on the economic scale.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/index/countries.cfm Hong Kong is about 10 percentage points free-er in the marketplace than we are. So next time, check ya facts . I wasn't blowing smoke. I didn't mention the economic zones, but you can't deny they are more free than we are in the marketplace.

And, that's a big "up yours" to buffalokid. Again, he's preaching without anything to back it up. Look at the chart buddy, you owe me an apology for that giant "HAHAHA" you gave me.

I failed to mention the economic zones, but it's what I was aiming at and minestra nailed it.

 

[Kade]

Can it be an efficient system on a small scale? Perhaps.

Can it be a just system on any scale? Absolutely not.

Any system that taxes it's constituents by a disproportionate amount is unjust. When they use that money in a way that is against most of the country, especially in democracy, it is also unjust. When Federal law silences the voices of smaller pockets of people in the jurisdiction of that law, it is also unjust.

There is no line between pragmatism and idealism. There is a maximizing of freedom, and maximizing of justice, and they have zeitgeist style reality to them.

 

[Kade]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/index/countries.cfm Hong Kong is about 10 percentage points free-er in the marketplace than we are. So next time, check ya facts . I wasn't blowing smoke.

And, that's a big "up yours" to buffalokid. Again, he's preaching without anything to back it up. Look at the chart buddy, you owe me an apology for that giant "HAHAHA" you gave me.

I failed to mention the economic zones, but it's what I was aiming at and minestra nailed it.

I'm glad to see the strong push recently in these forums, with the more intellectual. This forum is becoming much more interesting.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

I'm glad to see the strong push recently in these forums, with the more intellectual. This forum is becoming much more interesting.

How do you mean? I'm not trying to be the "I'm better than you guy," but I'd rather rely on fact than an opinion. I think it's pretty shameful that China has areas that are more economically free than we are. The first step to rehabilitation is admitting the problem.

 

[Kade]

How do you mean? I'm not trying to be the "I'm better than you guy," but I'd rather rely on fact than an opinion. I think it's pretty shameful that China has areas that are more economically free than we are. The first step to rehabilitation is admitting the problem.

I think you are right, and I'm pointing out that I like the new trend in the forums; towards more intellectual discourse.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Another angle...

I saw the story, and it occured to me that there is a factor that is usually left out: how a culture views excess and greed. Leaving aside all of the other factors about socialism, Denmark seems to be a country where the culture frowns upon excess wealth, and has a tendency to favor fairness. I would theorize that such a society would survive socialist tendencies better than others.

For instance, in our society, it is kill or be killed, screw over anyone and everyone for a buck. That is our current cultural norm. Socialism usually results in collective money. In a culture of "fairness", there would be a tendency to use that money as efficiently and fairly as possible.

But here, a big pot of money (socialism) is something just waiting to be grabbed by the "best capitalist". And don't doubt for a second that those who get more than their fair share of the socialist pot want to expand that pot.

Just an observation.

 

[Paulitician]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/features/index/countries.cfm Hong Kong is about 10 percentage points free-er in the marketplace than we are. So next time, check ya facts . I wasn't blowing smoke. I didn't mention the economic zones, but you can't deny they are more free than we are in the marketplace.

And, that's a big "up yours" to buffalokid. Again, he's preaching without anything to back it up. Look at the chart buddy, you owe me an apology for that giant "HAHAHA" you gave me.

I failed to mention the economic zones, but it's what I was aiming at and minestra nailed it.

Well, we're on the same page because I singled out Hong Kong, as well as Singapore. But to say that China, which we all know is a huge place, has a freer market than the US is pretty false.

 

[SeanEdwards]

I lived in Switzerland for awhile, and the people there seemed pretty content. They are not as insanely socialist as some of their European neighbors, but probably a lot more socialist than the anarchic ideal society imagined by the folks on RPforums. For instance, they have compulsory national service for all Swiss citizens. They either serve in the military and remain de-facto militia members for their entire adult life, or they serve in some non-combatant civil service type of role if they are conscientous objectors. They mandate by law that everyone have medical insurance, and the state will bill you if you don't get it privately. They even mandate the equivalent of renters insurance for everyone.

So, in some ways it was very socialist, but it seemed to work pretty well for them. Obviously it's also a small well-educated country. However, it's linguistically and culturally diverse, which in other countries can be a source of social tension. I think the Swiss method of letting individual cantons have a great deal of autonomy over their affairs helped to keep people content. I lived in a French speaking state, that was kind of on the conservative side socially. But 30 minutes away was a German speaking Canton, with storefronts in the downtown shopping district openly selling marijuana, and weird German biker/sex clubs all over the place.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

Well, we're on the same page because I singled out Hong Kong, as well as Singapore. But to say that China, which we all know is a huge place, has a freer market than the US is pretty false.

But China's special economic zones are specifically meant to have different regulations than the rest of the country. The country may be communist, but they know how business should be done and HK and Singapore reflect it. Regardless, it's still an absolute shame a Communist nation can have special economic zones that have more of a free market economy than we do. I know China is a huge place and we all know they are Communist so of course they are going to restrict their people and their freedoms, but the fact of the matter is when China wants real business done they know a free market environment is the way to do it. Sadly, I think our government could currently take a lesson from China, as disappointing and heart wrenching as it sounds .

In short, the places there actually set up to do business are more free than us. China is still communist and does oppress their people, so you can't expect everything to be fine and dandy, but the places that they need to do business do it well and are more free than us.

 

[DriftWood]

I grew up in Finland.. a relatively socialist country. People never really give much though to politics.. people are pretty contempt. I never voted, as whoever got elected did a pretty good job of keeping things the same. The thing that really got me thinking was when i had to do my military service. Its just something everyone has to do, and people try not complaining to much. It really drove home the point that i did not own my own own life, the state did. The military has a completely separate law system than the civilians have. People in military service don't have rights, they are pretty much slaves. You have to ask permission to eat, drink, sleep, shit, talk, think, rest. You don't have a right to your own body, the body does not respond to your own thought only to orders from outside. If someone did something wrong the whole group would be punished. Often the group would punish the individual that screwed up without being ordered to do so. It really brought about the worst in people. Even prisoners get more rights than soldiers. Some people even refuse the military service so that they will be thrown in jail. Not many people choose to do so because of the shame. Anyways military service by force.. is a lot like slavery. Its a wonder it is still practiced in western countries. US military service by choice is much better.

Cheers