Can socialism work in small and well-educated countries?

Smaller government work better then bigger governments no all over the world. The potential for corruption is lower. Hong Kong works better then America. Denmark works better then France.

Many of the socialist countries survive by living on non-renewable resources:

1) Oil (Scandanavia)

2) Children. They don't have any and thier societies are dying. They maintain thier standard of living because they don't have to pay to raise children.

3) Culture. A history of protestant work ethic has been slowly eroded. More and more youngsters living on the state dole.
 
Work? Statism is evil. So it just won't work. Besides, the socialism you're advocating for is involuntary, so it's pretty...communism. That's what you want, right? You should do some research on the USSR. It doesn't matter if your country is small, you are still imposing your political will on other people via statism. The socialism you want just makes matters worse. Why not just leave people the fuck alone? People can learn to live without government by impoving their own lives, not by spewing radical ideologies that turns people off whose livelihood benefits from the status quo. That's pretty much why libertarianism (even though CORRECT) has been stuck in its first five minutes since the days of Adam Smith, people just don't want it. The government is just a mafia. That's all it is. I hope you'll learn to access that, one day.

I'm just saying that socialism can work within certain conditions, like Denmark. I'm talking about perceived "happiness" as an index of how well a country is doing. GDP and other economic factors can give light to how well libertarianism does. Denmark's success is probably due to their culture and overall acceptance of the system.

However, innovation is the key to overall prosperity and Denmark may just be freeloading on the world's technological advancements.
 
No, it can't.

They are currently riding the coattails of the market economy. There is no way for a price of a good to be determined in the absence of a market to set the price. How much should a #3 spring coil cost? You don't know, and neither does anyone else...until the market demonstrates the price through its allocation of capital and production / consumption processes. You may drastically over or under-value it, simply because you can't foresee every possible alternative use of it within industry.

Right now, they're seeing the prices of goods and capital that other markets are setting, and are able to model their system after it to some extent.

Now, it *may* be possible for a small-sized commune to get along well-enough, but once you get into the complexity of a modern economy, all bets are off. There's no way for all of the economic transactions to be predictable and manageable. A human does not have the capacity, nor does any supercomputer, even in theory.

Imagine the market as a naturally "controlled" chaotic environment consisting of literally trillions of individual decisions by the people every day. Now imagine trying to figure all that out by committee :rolleyes:

We can't even figure out how to stick to the Constitution in the committee known as the U.S. Government...

^^^There's the reason, once again.

I disagree with socialism (communism, fascism, totalitarianism, whatever you want to call it) on moral grounds, too, but that wasn't the question.

It cannot actually work without relying on capitalism as its guiding light. If one were to assume a hypothetical world socialist state, it would fail, as it would be unable to appropriately allocate production goods, since there'd be no pricing mechanism, since no free market would be around to produce it.

It's nigh impossible to wrap one's head around the complexity and interconnectedness of a market economy. It's STAGGERINGLY complex. There are quite literally billions of separate products in New York city alone, as evidenced by the number of distinct SKU #'s there. Every SINGLE ONE of those has a production process that involves countless resources from many different sources.

As a wild, off-the-wall example of potential pitfalls in complete market planning:
Imagine food rotting on a farm because the train couldn't get there on time to pick it up.
The train was late because the engine failed.
The engine failed because of a broken #3 spring, which could not be replaced
It could not be replaced because the springs were all mis-allocated by a bureaucrat to make pistols for the military.
Now you've lost quite a lot of food.

Yes, that's a crazy and contrived, and over-simplified example, but it's a start in explaining the chaotic, "butterfly effect" of central planning. I'll update it if I can think of a better one.

Size isn't the issue either, as some suggested that Denmark might work because it's small. If you were to imagine this world socialist nation to only have a population of 10,000 people, instead of 6 billion, the same problem is still there: the problem of prices and economic calculation.

There may be a very small commune sized limit where people can limit their production to necessities, which might work without pricing. Barter would work without pricing, but it's a highly limited economic system. Modern economies cannot operate without a free market pricing mechanism to guide them.

If you can prove otherwise, let me know. I'll give you 60% of the book's proceeds ;)... no one's ever done it.
 
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Von Mises and Hayek said it would never work no how and that settles it. The problem is in relying on a planning board to allocate resources rather than letting the market do it. No planning board no matter how smart and virtuous they may be can make those decisions as well as Mr Market and the result is always shortages of some products and overproduction of others.
 
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The beauty of a free market economy is that people can easily forum voluntary communes within the economy if they like.

No way in hell you can have your own little free market economy under a socialist government.
 
I'm just saying that socialism can work within certain conditions, like Denmark. I'm talking about perceived "happiness" as an index of how well a country is doing. GDP and other economic factors can give light to how well libertarianism does.

Socialism can appear to work for a while. I would be very surprised if Denmark's current system lasts more than another generation before it implodes, destroying whatever wealth is left in the country in the process. Legalized wealth redistribution (theft) in the near term and the inevitable destruction of all or most of the wealth in a country is criminal and immoral, no matter how "happy" the population appears to be happy in the near term (though I'm not convinced that part is even true in Denmark).
 
I completely disagree. Libertarianism and socialism are completely incompatible. I don't see any distinction between political and social beliefs. If you and your friends join a kibbutz or a commune under a libertarian system, that's like saying "it's OK for me to steal from one neighbor, as long as my other neighbor doesn't steal from me". It's hypocritical and immoral.
Perhaps I should have been more clear on what I meant by "socialism". As the OP was, I was referring to socialism as a voluntary agreement among a number of people to share their property among themselves. If we're talking about Soviet-style government, then the "stealing from your neighbor" analogy is fitting, but there is nothing inherently immoral about choosing a socialist lifestyle for yourself.

Disagree. Libertarianism's vision for society is one of laissez-faire capitalism.
Laissez-faire yes, but would you force somebody to participate in the capitalist economy if they didn't want to? I'm not saying that socialism would work in practice (at least when more than a dozen or so people are involved); I'm only saying that libertarianism in itself does not require its adherents to be capitalists, as long as there is no coercion involved.

The beauty of a free market economy is that people can easily forum voluntary communes within the economy if they like.

No way in hell you can have your own little free market economy under a socialist government.
This is the essence of what I'm saying.
 
I saw on yahoo and youtube a piece on how Denmark rated to be the world's most happy country. The country is completely socialist and most of the people enjoy high standard of living.

Discuss

Fascinating post, Armand -- I thought about this news story as well.

And as much as I believe in Libertarian principles, I have this discussion with myself when I think of living in Japan's collectivist society.

I know there are other people, born into such a society, who are being forced to live a certain way.

But to willfully enter such a society is an internal paradox that only each individual person has the answer to.
 
True socialism cannot work on a large scale (this is based on economic theory that we can't get into now--just read Mises). Denmark is more of a welfare state. I wouldn't really like to live there, but I dont' know. It's cultrural. As I see it, even if I were extremely collectivistic, I don't need government to make me happy. I never understood why collectivism seems to imply statism to some collectivists. Ugh.
 
But isn't socialism a middle ground between capitalism and communism?

No it is not. You should watch this 1/2 hour video to learn about the different types of political and economic systems:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=81&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

It's the best explanation of exactly what communism, socialism, capitalism, etc. are all about. Everyone is a capitalist. Capital is the means of production. The question is who owns and controls the capital. Socialism is merely a government enforced monopoly.
 
No, it can't.

They are currently riding the coattails of the market economy. There is no way for a price of a good to be determined in the absence of a market to set the price. How much should a #3 spring coil cost? You don't know, and neither does anyone else...until the market demonstrates the price through its allocation of capital and production / consumption processes. You may drastically over or under-value it, simply because you can't foresee every possible alternative use of it within industry.

Right now, they're seeing the prices of goods and capital that other markets are setting, and are able to model their system after it to some extent.

Now, it *may* be possible for a small-sized commune to get along well-enough, but once you get into the complexity of a modern economy, all bets are off. There's no way for all of the economic transactions to be predictable and manageable. A human does not have the capacity, nor does any supercomputer, even in theory.

Imagine the market as a naturally "controlled" chaotic environment consisting of literally trillions of individual decisions by the people every day. Now imagine trying to figure all that out by committee :rolleyes:

We can't even figure out how to stick to the Constitution in the committee known as the U.S. Government...

That was the first thing that came to my mind...the effects of socialism have hardly begun to set in. It will always fail eventually. Why do you think China is growing at the rate it is? The nation is only communist in name...they don't have a lot of restrictions and regulations....they have more of a free market than we do.

I think it's only a matter of time before Denmark has some trouble.
 
imagine socialism with elites only

imagine for just a second if these no good shitbags (bush, perle, bolton, rockefeller, etc...) were the last ones on earth. they wouldnt last anytime cause they're to used to all of us underlings doing all the grunt work for them while they steal our money. Ill bet none of them have put forth any intensive daily physical labor for any longer than a couple of years. could you imagine them cutting down trees, sawing the wood, making nails, making wire, building houses, feeding cows, etc.. for any length of time. NAH never they are parasites and we are the host. they would eat each other up as they are nothing more than cannibalists.

Socialism is a doomed ideology. The dictionary ought to present it as Socialism =Death because eventually that is what it will always come to because humans cannot control everything and when they try to that is when things start to degrade. True Free market capitalism is a lack of control and that is why people do better in it because as a consumer neither i nor the government control anything only the things I wish to purchase and the government doesnt control what I do, can or cannot purchase.

Sorry to get off topic on the first paragraph.
 
I saw on yahoo and youtube a piece on how Denmark rated to be the world's most happy country. The country is completely socialist and most of the people enjoy high standard of living.

Could it be because the population is small, tightly-knit, more or less homogenus in ethnicity, and progressive-minded (regarding civil liberties, religious freedom, etc.) and well-educated (because of their free education)? I also read that Denmark has little political corruption and special interest. Basically, the whole country is a big community that works together.

Also, the taxes they probably incur apparently don't affect their standard of living and they have a trust in their government and vice versa.

Of course this means that they live in an extremely collective society in terms of economic worth and resources, but, they are, on average, supposedly the happiest people on earth

I lean libertarian, but does socialism work at this level? Is socialism just another style of society that can work just as much as libertarianism can, so long as the right ingredients are there?

Discuss

The biggest problem with socialism.....

Is when people who mean well run the government.....things can go well......

But what always happens with socialism.....is eventually people who seek to profit and have NO scruples become leaders.....and that is when socialism goes to hell.....once corrupt powers take control of government positions in socialism.....it becomes a tool of tyranny.......and a means for enrichment for those who run the show......
 
That was the first thing that came to my mind...the effects of socialism have hardly begun to set in. It will always fail eventually. Why do you think China is growing at the rate it is? The nation is only communist in name...they don't have a lot of restrictions and regulations....they have more of a free market than we do.

I think it's only a matter of time before Denmark has some trouble.

China is more free market than us.....

HAHAHAHAHA......

Doesn't the government own 60% of EVERY corporation in China?

Much as I dislike corporations.....I don't think I have ever seen that in the USA......
 
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The biggest problem with socialism.....

Is when people who mean well run the government.....things can go well......

But what always happens with socialism.....is eventually people who seek to profit and have NO scruples become leaders.....and that is when socialism goes to hell.....once corrupt powers take control of government positions in socialism.....it becomes a tool of tyranny.......and a means for enrichment for those who run the show......

It is those corrupt powers who install socialism as a means of monopolizing control.
 
It is those corrupt powers who install socialism as a means of monopolizing control.


I won't disagree with you.....

The evil ones use socialism as a tool.....they let well meaning ones start it.....their is a brief time of prosperity......once it is established.....they begin to replace the well meaning ones with those who wish to enrich themselves....and then they turn it into a tool of tyranny.......
 
I won't disagree with you.....

The evil ones use socialism as a tool.....they let well meaning ones start it.....their is a brief time of prosperity......once it is established.....they begin to replace the well meaning ones with those who wish to enrich themselves....and then they turn it into a tool of tyranny.......

The evil ones implement socialism by using the well meaning ones. Socialism isn't a good idea gone bad, socialism is a tool of the financial elite for consolidating control. It's always sold to the average people as something it isn't. The same people who rule Denmark have been ruling it for a long time. They throw puppet politicians into the limelight the same way it's done here. The government itself is nothing more than a tool of the elite for enforcing a monopoly on a duped populace and convincing them it's in their best interests.

In regards to the Danes being happy, Goethe said it best: "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." 63% income tax, 25% VAT. I'm glad I'm not that happy yet.
 
The evil ones implement socialism by using the well meaning ones. Socialism isn't a good idea gone bad, socialism is a tool of the financial elite for consolidating control. It's always sold to the average people as something it isn't. The same people who rule Denmark have been ruling it for a long time. They throw puppet politicians into the limelight the same way it's done here. The government itself is nothing more than a tool of the elite for enforcing a monopoly on a duped populace and convincing them it's in their best interests.

In regards to the Danes being happy, Goethe said it best: "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." 63% income tax, 25% VAT. I'm glad I'm not that happy yet.

You don't have to convince me.....I understand 1000% that socialism always devolves into a tool of tyranny......

That is why I am a constitutionalist.....

I admire the forefathers of the USA.....(Especially Thomas Jefferson).....they discussed, debated, and lived thru a very politicaly volatile time.....It was soooo long before I was born.....but now I understand why they were so careful to frame the constitution the way they did.....they understood so many failed politics.....yet they still made a constitution that took hundreds of years to put in danger.......

I know our constitutution is in danger....and it is time for all who understand why it was written the way it was.......to stand up for it.....we need everyone on board who understands, to buy us more time to put down the globalists......we are on the cusp of driving them into the background and not being a threat for 15 years.....

We are almost there......lets finish them off and buy us another 15 years......
 
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The main thing wrong with socialism is that if everyone owns an equal share of everything, why work hard.

It seems socialism is being introduced on a global scale at the moment.

Our government is no longer in control of this country, just as many of the other nations of the world. Have you noticed that the rules we have made for ourselves regarding immigration are not being enforced? It is the same in many countries of the world.

I believe the globalist bankers, like the Federal Reserve, are backing this New World Order. Who else has a motive or the means?

Just for our national debt alone we sent around $380,000,000,000 out of the country and put it in the hands of those outside of our government. That would be the interest on 9,000,000,000,000 at a 4% interest rate. That is just on the national debt. That doesn't count all of the money from other banking our nations businesses have done with them.

And we are just one nation... or are we?
 
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