Can Libertarianism take care of the involuntarily poor and vulnerable?

[mczerone]

why bother.. wimpy op hasn't even got the balls to stick around to debate his beliefs

What beliefs? The OP just leveled an accusatory question at "Libertarians" without taking a firm position. Looking at the posting history of the OP, it seems that he is more interested in learning than attacking, but he is coming from Canada and has never been exposed to the comparative economics needed to show that, for what ever the issue is, Liberty works vastly better than the govt system.

This OP doesn't seem to be the "troll" type that comes in every week with a "The free market couldn't handle problem X" post, but seems genuinely curious as to the efficiency and viability of non-governmental aid programs.

 

[Sola_Fide]

^^^Yeah.

Sometimes we forget that some people genuinely want us to give them answers about how freedom works. I remember the last time I voted for a Republican (Dole in 96) I was in an intense debate with some "kooks" (as I saw them) about the need to keep SS around. If these kooks (it turned out they were volunteering for the Constitution Party in Indiana) had not totally destroyed my faith in government, I probably wouldnt be a Libertarian today.

All it took was that little ember of Liberty to set a brushfire in my mind and change my entire worldview. All of us here have that power to change people with our ideas.

 

[LibertyRevolution]

This is the world I live in.


Why Do you think political belief has anything to do with caring?

 

[jtstellar]

This is the world I live in.


Why Do you think political belief has anything to do with caring?

because supporting a national tax on me and forcing me to "do good" definitely does

 

[cindy25]

it will take time, but the churches will take up their traditional role; in the 1800s churches had schools, hospitals, orphan homes, old age homes, cemeteries.
they gradually turned over these functions to the governments.

 

[pcosmar]

And 5 pages later the OP who posted this (obviously leading and questionable) thread, has responded to nothing.

Just like his "banning plastic guns" thread.

 

[Vessol]

This is the world I live in.

Why Do you think political belief has anything to do with caring?

Oh wow you took one example where it took 30 seconds for someone to help, while a few pricks just drove off. I love how the video cuts off just as someone is about to help the man.

Well, I guess you can just attach that whole blanket statement to all of humanity. Everyone is a selfish prick who would slit the throat of their own mother for a few dollars. It's a service to humanity that the only caring people in the world, politicians, would take the property of those selfish individuals in order to get it to those who suffer.

Except you of course, never once do you tell yourself that you're a selfish asshole, that's just everyone else.

 

[oyarde]

^^^Yeah.

Sometimes we forget that some people genuinely want us to give them answers about how freedom works. I remember the last time I voted for a Republican (Dole in 96) I was in an intense debate with some "kooks" (as I saw them) about the need to keep SS around. If these kooks (it turned out they were volunteering for the Constitution Party in Indiana) had not totally destroyed my faith in government, I probably wouldnt be a Libertarian today.

All it took was that little ember of Liberty to set a brushfire in my mind and change my entire worldview. All of us here have that power to change people with our ideas.

Go Hoosiers !

 

[ian_co]

That explains so much.
didn't you also start this thread?
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?276440-Plastic-Guns-does-the-2nd-Amendment-apply



About a vote against banning something that does not even exist. And it upsets you.
(and I don't even like Dick Cheney)

People really need to stop feeding these.

Yes I did make that thread and what's the point of you pointing out the redundant? I won't feel ashamed or discouraged from threads I make for discussion, isn't that the point of these forums?

I make threads so people can talk about the libertarian perspective on the issues. I don't make threads on a libertarian forum to argue why libertarianism is wrong, rather i make these threads so I can further expand my understanding on libertarianism and it's application to issues as a solution through discussion, even if it means I have to speak on a differing perspective. Just because I ask questions about libertarianism does not make me any less legitimate in participating in these forums, in fact I hope people, including me, will become more libertarian from these threads which question libertarianism. If that is a problem with you then you can suck my Canadian dick.

Edit: I didn't reply for so long because I don't visit the forums daily, is that a problem for you with your 14,000 posts? I am sorry for not being as active as you.

I cannot believe my absence makes upsets so many people, or the hypothetical or real questions I ask. This thread at least has never been about me trying to debate with people yet people froth at the mouth at the fact that I swayed a little and asked a question which provoked a debate. It has never been about my beliefs, I was really happy to see I got 5 pages of responses when I checked just a few minutes ago, but now that I'm reading some posts i am facepalming so hard. I wanted people to disagree with me and I wanted people to tell me why libertarianism is the solution not the problem. Christ, I even get called a wimpy OP for not checking this thread daily.

 

[1000-points-of-fright]

I didn't reply for so long because I don't visit the forums daily, is that a problem for you with your 14,000 posts? I am sorry for not being as active as you..... Christ, I even get called a wimpy OP for not checking this thread daily.

Don't worry about it. These are the same types of people who start a topic and then get upset when nobody replies within 5 minutes. Then they post something passive aggressive like "I guess nobody cares about (insert topic here)"

 

[pcosmar]

Yes I did make that thread and what's the point of you pointing out the redundant? I won't feel ashamed or discouraged from threads I make for discussion, isn't that the point of these forums?

A discussion is only possible when there is Conversation. A give and take. Rebuttal, or expansion on the issue.
Posting and then leaving, or not responding is not a conversation.

I make threads so people can talk about the libertarian perspective on the issues. I don't make threads on a libertarian forum to argue why libertarianism is wrong, rather i make these threads so I can further expand my understanding on libertarianism and it's application to issues as a solution through discussion, even if it means I have to speak on a differing perspective. Just because I ask questions about libertarianism does not make me any less legitimate in participating in these forums, in fact I hope people, including me, will become more libertarian from these threads which question libertarianism

The Forum is a discussion of many ideas. Many subjects and how they affect Liberty.
There are several socialists and other collectivists that post to denigrate the ideas of liberty. They love the state and try to prove that the state and it's power is better than individual liberty. This thread is only one more of a great many just like it.

. If that is a problem with you then you can suck my Canadian dick.

Edit: I didn't reply for so long because I don't visit the forums daily, is that a problem for you with your 14,000 posts? I am sorry for not being as active as you.

The only reason I have that many posts is because I have been a part of this conversation for several years.
In the beginning I was rather quiet and read (listened) before jumping in to the conversation.

I cannot believe my absence makes upsets so many people, or the hypothetical or real questions I ask. This thread at least has never been about me trying to debate with people yet people froth at the mouth at the fact that I swayed a little and asked a question which provoked a debate. It has never been about my beliefs, I was really happy to see I got 5 pages of responses when I checked just a few minutes ago, but now that I'm reading some posts i am facepalming so hard. I wanted people to disagree with me and I wanted people to tell me why libertarianism is the solution not the problem. Christ, I even get called a wimpy OP for not checking this thread daily.

It is because posting and then leaving is like yelling through the door (where folks are conversing) and then running off.
Stick around, join the conversation. If you have a point, make it. rather than asking a leading and often repeated question and then not paying attention to the answers.

 

[MelissaWV]

Don't worry about it. These are the same types of people who start a topic and then get upset when nobody replies within 5 minutes. Then they post something passive aggressive like "I guess nobody cares about (insert topic here)"

Yes, but on the flipside, is it really pointful to show up only rarely, only to go on for several paragraphs about how you can't be bothered to address concerns? Wouldn't it have been much shorter to address the issue at hand?

Food for thought.

 

[Cdn_for_liberty]

Canada used to have a limited government past like the U.S. It's ironic that it was the Conservatives who wanted to start the welfare state and the Liberals jumped along.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/cust3.html

There's an article recently that says that the OECD evaluated the Canadian healthcare system and they say that health care cost inflation is up and the price controls are not sustainable. Of course, our Prime Minister wouldn't have a serious conversation about this issue because it is a third rail in Canadian politics and he pretty much threw away his Austrian economist title in the trash.

 

[pcosmar]

Canada used to have a limited government past like the U.S. It's ironic that it was the Conservatives who wanted to start the welfare state and the Liberals jumped along.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/cust3.html

There's an article recently that says that the OECD evaluated the Canadian healthcare system and they say that health care cost inflation is up and the price controls are not sustainable. Of course, our Prime Minister wouldn't have a serious conversation about this issue because it is a third rail in Canadian politics and he pretty much threw away his Austrian economist title in the trash.

My Mother was born Canadian, and is now a naturalized citizen. Half my relatives are Canadian.
I live a few miles from the border. Our clinics and hospital parking lots are full of cars with Canadian Tags.
I have spoken to many about Canadian Health care. I sure don't want to import it.

 

[Fox McCloud]

My Mother was born Canadian, and is now a naturalized citizen. Half my relatives are Canadian.
I live a few miles from the border. Our clinics and hospital parking lots are full of cars with Canadian Tags.
I have spoken to many about Canadian Health care. I sure don't want to import it.

care to elaborate some of the things they stated?

 

[pcosmar]

care to elaborate some of the things they stated?

One lady (cancer patient) was told to set her affairs in order, nothing could be done for her.
Her kids brought her to the US and got her treatment. She lived 15 more years,

My Aunt was waiting for treatment that wasn't coming, and had to have her leg amputated. She was a tough old bird though.
Several are on lists for treatment "someday". others are denied treatment because there is either no money,no doctors or the bureaucracy has determined that they don't need it.

Many come here to get treatment rather than wait and gamble on their system.

 

[osan]

So the question that sticks out in my mind is, can the adoption of libertarianism in the government take care of people like her who are the most vulnerable in society?

The question presupposes the need, which in turn is used as the justification for robbing the one to support the other. I accept neither the assumption nor the justification. They are each false.

 

[ian_co]

A discussion is only possible when there is Conversation. A give and take. Rebuttal, or expansion on the issue.
Posting and then leaving, or not responding is not a conversation.

The Forum is a discussion of many ideas. Many subjects and how they affect Liberty.
There are several socialists and other collectivists that post to denigrate the ideas of liberty. They love the state and try to prove that the state and it's power is better than individual liberty. This thread is only one more of a great many just like it.

The only reason I have that many posts is because I have been a part of this conversation for several years.
In the beginning I was rather quiet and read (listened) before jumping in to the conversation.

It is because posting and then leaving is like yelling through the door (where folks are conversing) and then running off.
Stick around, join the conversation. If you have a point, make it. rather than asking a leading and often repeated question and then not paying attention to the answers.

1) Just because I don't check my threads daily doesn't mean I do not want to participate. I didn't expect making a thread meant I had to converse everyday and explain myself. I'm just asking for opinions which I would review. Threads are open I don't need to respond to every post, this thread got to 5 pages and had people discussing many issues without my involvement. And No, i read every single post so don't assume I'm not looking for answers just because I don't reply.

2) I made these threads so I can understand libertarianism more so I can hear the libertarian perspectives so I may be educated, don't label me as an enemy of this board and a socialist or a collectivist. The best way to see one's own perspective debate with the other side. That is no reason to be immature imply I'm one of these socialists trying to undermine this community. What am I a jew?

 

[pcosmar]

1) What am I a jew?

Curious.

Would that matter?

If you wish to learn, I would suggest a very good Video series. It explains that basics in simple and clear language.



Collectivism is widespread and commonly accepted.
Understanding Individualism is a basic step if freeing yourself of preconceived notions.

 

[susano]

I was trying to play the devil's advocate but it didn't work well. I'm not at all scared. I live a more free life than most of the people I've ever met, and I've been a limited government advocate longer than most of the RPF members have been alive. I'm trying to find ways to promote liberty, peace and prosperity. My point was that we are not getting anywhere by telling people that we are going to remove Social Security, Medicare, and Government pensions and replace it with nothing. Do you want the liberty movement to grow, or do you want to keep beating your head against the wall because nobody understands your philosophy? As AED pointed out, it is a marketing issue, not a philosophical one.

I endorse this post ^^

Most people will never get into the finer points of the Constitution and the writings of the founders, let alone the many libertarian thinkers. Ideas that lead to policy have to be sold, like any other product. We have generations of Americans who know nothing but the way things are, or even the way they were a few decades ago. Look how long we've had the New Deal. That's a LOT to be undone.

I often think of this very issue regarding the Department of Mind Control Education. While I would LOVE to see govt schools abolished, I know we have to reverse engineer from where we are, now. The first step is getting rid of that abomination. Most of the sheeple don't even know it hasn't been around that long. Any talk about getting rid of it has failed to sell the benefits. In this case it must be sold as "community based education" with local control and decision making. You "sell" people back their POWER.

The issue of income security is more complicated but I have no doubt it could be sold.