Can a Christian support torture?

Is it possible for a Christian to support torture?


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I think it would depend on the severity of the torture. I don't think that torture that doesn't have lasting physical consequences would be worse than getting killed, or as bad. But I think that getting your arms and legs cut off would be worse than being killed.

You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. How bad is a sin does not come from the perspective of the victim, but from the perspective of the sinner. From the perspective of the victim sure murder may be worse than torture, but from the perspective of the sinner, torture requires a far more sadistic heart than murder. From the perspective of the sinner, torture is clearly worse than murder. Since the perspective of the sinner is the one that matters in the Judgement, well, there you go.
 
You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. How bad is a sin does not come from the perspective of the victim, but from the perspective of the sinner. From the perspective of the victim sure murder may be worse than torture, but from the perspective of the sinner, torture requires a far more sadistic heart than murder. From the perspective of the sinner, torture is clearly worse than murder. Since the perspective of the sinner is the one that matters in the Judgement, well, there you go.

Why would torture be worse than murder from the perspective of the sinner? I see no evidence at all in the Bible that that's the case. Murder seems to be the worst sin according to the Bible. It was the only sin that Jesus specifically mentioned that one could commit that would cause them to miss out on eternal life.
 
You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. How bad is a sin does not come from the perspective of the victim, but from the perspective of the sinner. From the perspective of the victim sure murder may be worse than torture, but from the perspective of the sinner, torture requires a far more sadistic heart than murder. From the perspective of the sinner, torture is clearly worse than murder. Since the perspective of the sinner is the one that matters in the Judgement, well, there you go.

That depends. If the murderer believes that the person they are murdering will go to hell, then I think it is far more sadistic to attempt to inflict that on someone, than to torture them. If the murderer doesn't believe that though, then torture would be more sadistic.
 
Bump for Sola_Fide. I am curious about his opinion on this issue

I think the title should be "Should a Christian support torture?", because we all know a Christian can sinfully "support" all kinds of things that he shouldn't for a time in his life....things that he needs to be corrected on. But I think the Christian worldview stands against statism and all the barbarism that comes along with it, including torture.
 
I think the title should be "Should a Christian support torture?", because we all know a Christian can sinfully "support" all kinds of things that he shouldn't for a time in his life....things that he needs to be corrected on. But I think the Christian worldview stands against statism and all the barbarism that comes along with it, including torture.

Fair enough. I wrote "can" on purpose because I was asking if supporting torture is in and of itself proof that someone isn't saved.

To broaden the question a bit, where's the line? How much barbarism can you support before we say you aren't saved? I get how you can derive fiscal liberalism and social conservatism from the Bible (I think those are bad arguments, but nonetheless) but I do not get this whole neocon phenomenon
 
To broaden the question a bit, where's the line? How much barbarism can you support before we say you aren't saved?

To broaden it a bit more,, How can someone who has been convinced and convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit,, and accepted the offer of salvation turn around and condemn someone else to torture? or support the suffering inflicted?

I do not believe it to be likely.
 
I get how you can derive fiscal liberalism and social conservatism from the Bible (I think those are bad arguments, but nonetheless) but I do not get this whole neocon phenomenon

For the record, it's not necessarily the case that the issue of foreign intervention and the issue of torture are directly related. For instance, Pat Buchanan opposes foreign intervention but supports torture. The same goes for Michael Scheuer. John McCain opposes torture but supports foreign intervention.
 
For the record, it's not necessarily the case that the issue of foreign intervention and the issue of torture are directly related. For instance, Pat Buchanan opposes foreign intervention but supports torture. The same goes for Michael Scheuer. John McCain opposes torture but supports foreign intervention.

Torture is worse because its pretty much the core of moral relativism. People try to cop out of this by saying "torture isn't directly mentioned in the Bible" but nobody really believes this argument. Every single American Christian would condemn me if I were to just torture someone in my basement, even if it were legal, and even if the person agreed to let me torture him. Yet these same people would parrot the whole "well, the Bible doesn't directly condemn torture" argument.

That said, the issues of indiscriminate killing and torture are closely related, even if some people support one and not the other.
 
To broaden it a bit more,, How can someone who has been convinced and convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit,, and accepted the offer of salvation turn around and condemn someone else to torture? or support the suffering inflicted?

I do not believe it to be likely.
I don't get how.
 
To broaden it a bit more,, How can someone who has been convinced and convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit,, and accepted the offer of salvation turn around and condemn someone else to torture? or support the suffering inflicted?

I do not believe it to be likely.


They can't do it rightly, but they may do it wrongly.

First, maybe they think torture is not really torture. Second, maybe they think the people being tortured are not really people. Third, maybe they think the state is god.

This comes back to idolatry of the state though, and if someone is a statolater, then are they really a Christian at all? See, if the state is god, after all, then the state can do whatever it darn well pleases. Torture or otherwise.

Support for torture seems to me to be an effect of statolatry, so maybe the root question is, can someone be a statolater and still be a Christian?

At first blush my first instinct is to say, "no," but then I look at Israel worshipping the golden calf, and see that those who did were not expunged, they were eventually redeemed. So maybe my first instinct is off. We know that a Christian can be in error and still be a Christian. The error requires repentance, of course, but the condition of error does not automatically reduce salvation.

Also problematic for my first instinct of "statolatry = not Christian" is that the vast majority of Christian statolaters are completely unaware that they are idolizing the state. If someone is committing an error/sin and they are totally unaware that they are committing said error/sin, while it may be held against them for reward, can it be held against them for salvation?

And to reverse direction AGAIN, we do know that there will be souls who were completely unaware of their position outside of Christ, who WILL have it held against them for salvation. At the Bema Seat of Christ, souls that totally believed they were preaching/prophesying/doing miracles in the Name of God will be told "Go away from Me, I never knew you."
 
Torture is worse because its pretty much the core of moral relativism. People try to cop out of this by saying "torture isn't directly mentioned in the Bible" but nobody really believes this argument. Every single American Christian would condemn me if I were to just torture someone in my basement, even if it were legal, and even if the person agreed to let me torture him. Yet these same people would parrot the whole "well, the Bible doesn't directly condemn torture" argument.

That said, the issues of indiscriminate killing and torture are closely related, even if some people support one and not the other.

I just disagree. I don't see how torturing someone like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is in any way as bad as say placing sanctions on Iraq during the 90's which resulted in the deaths of 500,000 innocent people.
 
Every single American Christian would condemn me if I were to just torture someone in my basement, even if it were legal, and even if the person agreed to let me torture him.

The reason why they support torture is because they believe that it has national security implications and saves lives. You can disagree with that and argue that torture isn't effective and doesn't save lives, but it just isn't the case that people support torture simply because they believe in being cruel to other people.
 
The reason why they support torture is because they believe that it has national security implications and saves lives. You can disagree with that and argue that torture isn't effective and doesn't save lives, but it just isn't the case that people support torture simply because they believe in being cruel to other people.

You can say what you want about people who support torture don't believe in being cruel to others, but yes they do believe that because it's the means to their end.


I would argue that "The Christian" focus shouldn't be on "National" anthing. His goal is something more. If he is exceedingly worrying about the "Nation", then he's completely missed the point of Christ.


This thread needs to die
 
You can say what you want about people who support torture don't believe in being cruel to others, but yes they do believe that because it's the means to their end.

You can argue that they believe in being cruel to others, but I don't believe that they support torture simply for the reason of being cruel to others. That may be a result of what they advocate, but it's not the reason why they advocate the policy. They advocate the policy because they believe it saves lives.
 
You can argue that they believe in being cruel to others, but I don't believe that they support torture simply for the reason of being cruel to others. That may be a result of what they advocate, but it's not the reason why they advocate the policy. They advocate the policy because they believe it saves lives.

I really don't care what they believe. BELIEVING something doesn't make it moral or right. I know people who think that beating the hell out of their kids with bruises makes them mind.

What's that old quote? No matter how great the strategy sometimes you have to pay attention to the results. :rolleyes:
These "Christians" need to pay attention to "results".
 
I just disagree. I don't see how torturing someone like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is in any way as bad as say placing sanctions on Iraq during the 90's which resulted in the deaths of 500,000 innocent people.

It's a case of known results versus unknown results. I don't know if there were excess deaths of children resulting from the embargo on Cuba for instance. And had the embargo on Iraq not includes chlorine, a so called "dual use" item that's not only used for chemical weapons, but also to treat drinking water, the deaths of the Iraqi children might not have happened. What is unspeakably evil is Madelyn Albright declaring after the fact that the price was "worth it." In the case of torture, you know ahead of time the harm that you are going to do.
 
I just disagree. I don't see how torturing someone like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is in any way as bad as say placing sanctions on Iraq during the 90's which resulted in the deaths of 500,000 innocent people.

Yeah, you're right.
The reason why they support torture is because they believe that it has national security implications and saves lives. You can disagree with that and argue that torture isn't effective and doesn't save lives, but it just isn't the case that people support torture simply because they believe in being cruel to other people.

I wasn't saying its BECAUSE they want to be cruel to other people. I'm saying that when they present their argument that "the Bible doesn't condemn torture" they are actually lying becuase:

Every single American Christian would condemn me if I were to just torture someone in my basement, even if it were legal, and even if the person agreed to let me torture him.

So, they are CLAIMING that they are OK with it because "the Bible doesn't condemn it" but in reality they realize the Bible does condemn it but they want to get around it because "the greater good."
 
So, they are CLAIMING that they are OK with it because "the Bible doesn't condemn it" but in reality they realize the Bible does condemn it but they want to get around it because "the greater good."


Exodus 32:4
He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."


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