Calvinism and the Truth

To consider myself fallible means to leave open the possibility of being shown wrong. But to show that I'm wrong about what the Bible says takes more than just saying, "This guy thinks something different, therefore, so should you." It takes a persuasive argument based on evidence. If Chrysostom thought the Bible didn't teach predestination, then he was wrong about that. What? Am I not allowed to say Chrysostom was wrong about something? If I'm wrong to call him wrong, then I can be proven wrong, and I'm open to seeing that proof.

No you can disagree. That is between you and your Creator. You already decided before the issue is presented though that it must comply with your view or it is wrong. You are not open to evidence of the contrary as you have already stated it must comply with your views or it is wrong. His basis is completely scriptural. You haven't even bothered to glance at it yet from the comments you are making. You come across as someone who must lead rather than follow Him. You have one view on the subject and no matter what is said to the contrary it will be your way. This of course to be followed so says the Bible according to erowe1. So be it, then.
 
Ran across this and it made me smile. Sort of reminds me of the discussion going on here. In some ways I see where the Calvinist are coming from but I think that in taking Calvinism to the end extent is where the problem arises for me and where my experiences led me to realize (literally, physically realize) the danger of certain beliefs. I think it may explain why erowe1 and I read something and I see something completely different.

Here it is crucially important to recognize how complex the act of choice truly is. There are at least two ways in which this is true. First, whether one wants something depends on the way it is described, or, more precisely, the way one describes it to oneself. I want to eat the piece of pie before me; I do not want to eat the several hundred calories before me. I want to do whatever it takes to become a fine scholar; I do not want to spend the evening studying Greek. And so on. We are all familiar with how the multitude of ways in which the same action can be described introduces complexity into our decisions. Sometimes the choice of how to act has to be preceded by a deliberate decision to think of the action in one way rather than another; thus I focus on the calories the pie contains, and not its other features, as I choose to forego. At other times we are unable to choose between the different ways of regarding the action, and we drift in indecision, or allow our very lack of decision to make the choice by default. I cannot decide whether my desire to learn Greek outweighs my disinclination to work this evening, and so I let my attention wander, and soon events intervene to remove the decision from me. However, the ways we describe an action are not indefinitely variable, for our thinking is responsive, at least to some extent, to the world around us. The pie really is a certain number of calories, Greek really is of a certain value; I may choose to disregard these facts, but I cannot change them.

The dependence of choice upon description is one source of complexity. Another is that our willing is reflexive, indeed multiply so. I can want to want something (or not to want it), or even want to want to want it, and so on. Philosophers who have discussed this phenomenon speak of first- and second-, or even higher, order desires.11 Thus I may not want to pray at the moment, but I want to want to pray; I realize that the desire is a good one, and that my lack of it is a fault. Interestingly, how these second-order desires translate to the first order varies from case to case. Sometimes one can want to want something without thereby actually wanting it; for example, I might want to want to eat only healthy foods, in the sense that I recognize that this would be an excellent desire to have, and sincerely wish that I did have it, without in any sense actually possessing it. On the other hand, there are cases where to want to want something is tantamount to wanting the thing itself. To return to the example of prayer, if I want to want to pray, do not I thereby, in a sense, want to pray? The problem is not sheer lack of desire; it is that the desire is present but undeveloped, and needs to be actively expressed. Often in such a case one can cultivate the desire by acting as if one already had it. A character in Tristram Shandy remarks, “I kiss my father not because I love him, but in order that I may love him.” That captures nicely the complexity of human desire: there is what we want and what we want to want, and we continually act with an eye toward both sets of desires.

I hope it will now be apparent that the question of whether the act of faith originates with us or with God may not have a simple answer. What, after all, is the act of faith? Is it believing, or wanting to believe—or perhaps even wanting to want to believe? And believing in what, or whom? What, for example, of one who comes to believe in Christ as he was preached by the Arians? Suppose such a person slowly and imperceptibly comes to see that Arianism is inadequate, and that Christ must be acknowledged as truly God; is there some definite point on this continuum which was the initium fidei? And what about motive? Suppose someone comes to believe because he thinks that doing so will get him to heaven, but has no conception of its larger meaning? It might be answered that believing is not primarily a matter of intellectual assent, but of living in faith. Then yet more questions arise. How much faith, and how consistently expressed? If it is fundamentally a way of life that matters, and not an act of assent, then why must belief in God be involved at all? Could not the desire to live a moral life, which often exists long before any act of assent, itself be the initium fidei?"

http://orthodox-stl.org/grace_freewill.html
 
Think about this: Walk it back to the beginning of time. You believe God is all-knowing, right?Okay. If God is All-knowing, then He knew every possible outcome of every possible world He could have created. And He knew every possible story line for every possible world He could have created....

But He chose to create this one... knowing the exact story line ahead of time.

You see, even when you deny predestination and only accept foreknowledge, you STILL can't escape God's choices. Logically, the means MUST be related to the ends from eternity.

Moostracks,

Just curious, have you considered this?^^^
 
This thread seriously motivated me to do a TON of studying to find out exactly what I do and do not believe.... and after months of studying and coming to the full understanding of what Calvinism is and what it is not....... I have to say that I am not a calvinist.

But I want to thank everyone for their contributions and for even bringing the subject up...... otherwise I would not have known that I needed to understand it! :)
 
this has probably been brought up somewhere in this thread. I haven't read all of the posts.

John6:36-40 cover all 5 points in the Doctrines of Grace.
 
This thread seriously motivated me to do a TON of studying to find out exactly what I do and do not believe.... and after months of studying and coming to the full understanding of what Calvinism is and what it is not....... I have to say that I am not a calvinist.

But I want to thank everyone for their contributions and for even bringing the subject up...... otherwise I would not have known that I needed to understand it! :)

Its interesting because I've also been reading, studying, and doing a lot of pondering about Calvinism over the past months and the more I listen to both sides and the more I read the Bible I've come to the conclusion that Calvinism lines up with God's word. Funny how thing work sometimes :)

The first time I heard the Reformed perspective I thought it was ridiculous and could not possibly be true. But the more I studied it and thought about it and read God's word I've slowly come around to it.
 
Its interesting because I've also been reading, studying, and doing a lot of pondering about Calvinism over the past months and the more I listen to both sides and the more I read the Bible I've come to the conclusion that Calvinism lines up with God's word. Funny how thing work sometimes :)

The first time I heard the Reformed perspective I thought it was ridiculous and could not possibly be true. But the more I studied it and thought about it and read God's word I've slowly come around to it.

One of the best things I ever did was to start attending a Reformed church. Without exception, the preaching and teaching has far surpassed that of any other church I have attended.
 
This is what I take solace in. I know God loves me. I know if I screw up and choose to go to hell that doesn't change the fact that God loves me. I don't believe hell lasts forever anyway but that the effect of the punishment is what is eternal. (The Bible talks about the wicked being "consumed" and being "stubble" and says that Satan himself will be brought to "ashes".) If someone wants to believe that God only loves certain people I can't change that belief any more than I can change the belief of someone who doesn't believe in God at all. I just know that for me God is real and the real God I believe in wants everyone to be saved because He said so (He's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance). The quandary for this God that loves everyone is that love operates on the principle of free will. So as much as it pains Him, He has to allow for the possibility of people rejecting His love. For those who believe as I do fine. For those who don't, also fine. Maybe we are "predestined" to disagree. ;)
 
This is what I take solace in. I know God loves me. I know if I screw up and choose to go to hell that doesn't change the fact that God loves me.

Why would you take solace in non-effectual love? I mean you would still have common grace while alive, but after death comes the judgement and God has no love for his enemies at the judgement.

Do you believe God changed in the NT? Because throughout the OT it's very clear God hates and destroys his enemies. Yet, he delivers his people no matter how unfaithful and disobedient they get.

Maybe you can take solace in God a who doesn't keep his promise to deliver you, but I would be worried sick about myself and my own tendencies to sin and practice unbelief if it was all up to me stay saved.
 
Why would you take solace in non-effectual love? I mean you would still have common grace while alive, but after death comes the judgement and God has no love for his enemies at the judgement.

Ezekial 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Do you believe God changed in the NT? Because throughout the OT it's very clear God hates and destroys his enemies. Yet, he delivers his people no matter how unfaithful and disobedient they get.

Ezekial 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Maybe you can take solace in God a who doesn't keep his promise to deliver you, but I would be worried sick about myself and my own tendencies to sin and practice unbelief if it was all up to me stay saved.

I wouldn't and couldn't serve a god who loved some people and not others. I would be worried sick that even though I thought I was part of the "elect" I was somehow not. And if I was part of the "chosen elect" I wouldn't want to be. Again I wouldn't and couldn't serve a god like that. I think those who make Jehovah to be like that do Him a grave disservice. But if it makes you sleep better at night I won't take it away from you. And no, I do not at all worry about my own tendencies to sin. All God asks me to do is to choose Him and to open up the door of my heart to Him.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

I'm glad I serve the God who offers that choice to all men. It saddens me that some don't choose Him, but not as much as it would if I believed He forced them to make that choice. But if the (false IMO) belief of predestination helps you sleep at night, by all means continue.
 
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I wouldn't and couldn't serve a god who loved some people and not others. I would be worried sick that even though I thought I was part of the "elect" I was somehow not. And if I was part of the "chosen elect" I wouldn't want to be. Again I wouldn't and couldn't serve a god like that. I think those who make Jehovah to be like that do Him a grave disservice. But if it makes you sleep better at night I won't take it away from you. And no, I do not at all worry about my own tendencies to sin. All God asks me to do is to choose Him and to open up the door of my heart to Him.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

I'm glad I serve the God who offers that choice to all men. It saddens me that some don't choose Him, but not as much as it would if I believed He forced them to make that choice. But if the (false IMO) belief of predestination helps you sleep at night, by all means continue.

Ok, I'll sleep well thinking that God is In control and you can sleep well thinking you're in control.
 
Ok, I'll sleep well thinking that God is In control and you can sleep well thinking you're in control.

I'll sleep well knowing that I don't believe what you think I believe. I'll sleep well knowing that I have a God who is secure enough in Himself to grant His creatures some measure of control over their own destinies while He maintains overall control over the universe. I'll sleep well knowing that because I know that true love can only come from choice, not from force and that I worship a God that not only is true love but desires true love in response.
 
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