Calvinism and the Truth

[Sola_Fide]

believing in free will leads to supporting the theory of evolution which is the root of statism and is infesting our public schools

Rev9

LoL...okay I did laugh at that, but even as you were trying to make a joke of my views, you proved my point.

If you look at church history and the history of theology, you will see that the institutions and people who have been on the wrong side of the debate about God's sovereignty have always been more inclined to reject creationism.


You can see this today in the Roman Catholic Church. They affirm the heresy of synergism and free will, and they were the first to capitulate the debate to the Darwinists when they began to teach "theistic evolution".


What is the point? The point is that this issue of whether salvation is an act of God alone or an act of man and God working together is the dividing line of true Christianity and false religion. So it is no surprise that false religion would be the first to accommodate any non-Christian view that comes down the line.

 

[erowe1]

I'm pretty sure most make that distinction because of Total Depravity. That doctrine teaches that man is incapable of doing good, which includes faith in Christ , but is not necessarily prevented from doing amoral acts. The thought would be that while it takes an act of God to bring repentance, man can tie his shoes without a specific act of God . Personally, I don't take a position either way.

At this point, I'm not sure that matters. If you knew God had a hand in you tying your shoes would you live any differently? Would you cease to live like a person with his own will?

I think that's right.

It goes back to Jmdrake's question about Adam choosing to sin even while he wasn't totally depraved. The Calvinist, including the compatibilist, will say that he was still predestined to sin. So the argument that the doctrine of totally depravity demands the doctrine of unconditional election is still a valid argument, but it's unnecessary. God's total sovereignty over all that happens, including who does and doesn't believe in Jesus, would still be logically necessary without any reference to total depravity.

 

[moostraks]

I'm pretty sure most make that distinction because of Total Depravity. That doctrine teaches that man is incapable of doing good, which includes faith in Christ , but is not necessarily prevented from doing amoral acts. The thought would be that while it takes an act of God to bring repentance, man can tie his shoes without a specific act of God . Personally, I don't take a position either way.

At this point, I'm not sure that matters. If you knew God had a hand in you tying your shoes would you live any differently? Would you cease to live like a person with his own will?

Yes...Once you realize the futility and hopelessness of existence in a closed system. Chronic suicidal level depression if you really dwell on the matter. Does someone truly love another if they keep them caged and make all their decisions for them? Calvinists imo have stockholm syndrome in regards to the god they have defined. When one takes the calvinist belief system to the extent of its conclusions it is quite depressing and unmotivating but while you are inside the system the feeling of being special and "chosen" can keep you blinded to the failings and illogical nature of a loving god who creates sin and destines people to a horrifyingly miserable existence just 'cause or the gp response for the glorification of....

THe god that determines how you tied your shoes also determined that those that sexually abuse children defile them as well if all choices are within this closed system. Still feel the same way about this god? Would it change your opinion if you were the one defiled and had been told it was for some glorification that acts such as these occurred? Would you think any differently about this god? You would come to the conclusion rather rapidly that said god was a sadistic bastard and you would have no interest in serving them. However that is okay because you weren't chosen to serve him them if you held this grudge. So not only are you cannon fodder for the abuser, you aren't part of the chosen crowd. It makes a difference, a huge difference, on whether one has true free will.

 

[Beorn]

Yes...Once you realize the futility and hopelessness of existence in a closed system. Chronic suicidal level depression if you really dwell on the matter. Does someone truly love another if they keep them caged and make all their decisions for them? Calvinists imo have stockholm syndrome in regards to the god they have defined. When one takes the calvinist belief system to the extent of its conclusions it is quite depressing and unmotivating but while you are inside the system the feeling of being special and "chosen" can keep you blinded to the failings and illogical nature of a loving god who creates sin and destines people to a horrifyingly miserable existence just 'cause or the gp response for the glorification of....

THe god that determines how you tied your shoes also determined that those that sexually abuse children defile them as well if all choices are within this closed system. Still feel the same way about this god? Would it change your opinion if you were the one defiled and had been told it was for some glorification that acts such as these occurred? Would you think any differently about this god? You would come to the conclusion rather rapidly that said god was a sadistic bastard and you would have no interest in serving them. However that is okay because you weren't chosen to serve him them if you held this grudge. So not only are you cannon fodder for the abuser, you aren't part of the chosen crowd. It makes a difference, a huge difference, on whether one has true free will.

If Calvinism is so bad why can't you argue against it on the terms it stands on rather than on a giant straw man argument?

 

[Southron]

Moostraks, I don't see the hopelessness and despair that you do.

If you are a Christian then you have the promises in Christ. If you are despairing for other people, there is no need. We don't know who the elect are. God may use you to bring those people to Christ. There is always hope.

 

[Miss Annie]

Moostraks, I don't see the hopelessness and despair that you do.

If you are a Christian then you have the promises in Christ. If you are despairing for other people, there is no need. We don't know who the elect are. God may use you to bring those people to Christ. There is always hope.

There is always hope!
2 Peter 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Sola_Fide]

If Calvinism is so bad why can't you argue against it on the terms it stands on rather than on a giant straw man argument?

Because Arminians don't fare to well when they have to follow a passage of scripture from beginning to end, like Romans 9, or John 10, or Ephesians 1, etc etc etc.

I posted Romans 9 a few days ago and after all of the rejections I've seen on these boards, not ONE person has copied the text and exegeted it verse by verse.

If you disagree that God has a purpose for evil in this world. Fine. But if you do not exegete Romans 9, then I will give you no credibility.


But the reason that Arminians can't follow a passage of scripture from beginning to end is because their views are not Biblical. If you are going to say your views are Biblical but can't follow the text through, then something is wrong with your view.

But, I say this with all gentleness and respect. I was once an Arminian myself, but when I came in to contact with the doctrines of grace, God changed me. And I believe He will show all of His elect (and the ones who hate Him) the glories of His matchless grace.

 

[Miss Annie]

Because Arminians don't fare to well when they have to follow a passage of scripture from beginning to end, like Romans 9, or John 10, or Ephesians 1, etc etc etc.

I posted Romans 9 a few days ago and after all of the rejections I've seen on these boards, not ONE person has copied the text and exegeted it verse by verse.

If you disagree that God has a purpose for evil in this world. Fine. But if you do not exegete Romans 9, then I will give you no credibility.


But the reason that Arminians can't follow a passage of scripture from beginning to end is because their views are not Biblical. If you are going to say your views are Biblical but can't follow the text through, then something is wrong with your view.

But, I say this with all gentleness and respect. I was once an Arminian myself, but when I came in to contact with the doctrines of grace, God changed me. And I believe He will show all of His elect (and the ones who hate Him) the glories of His matchless grace.

I don't disagree. I believe that God uses it to refine us....... as Silver is refined in the fire.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

There is always hope!
2 Peter 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I find it funny that calvanist's emphasize judgement over grace,love and salvation. Its the great paradox in faith to say that all people are damned before they were even born but then to say that they believe in the power of Christ's death and resurrection.How can the "gift of salvation"be a gift if it was chosen?Thats part of the contradictingparadox. Jesus said clearly that children belong to heaven,at what age that sin takes over depends on the person im sure,but never did Christ say "I have chosen a few of you,the rest of you were made for hell". People were not created for hell.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I don't disagree. I believe that God uses it to refine us....... as Silver is refined in the fire.

Absolutely, and if you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 9, you understand that God raised up and hardened Pharoah for His own self-glorification and fame.


As Romans 9 teaches, God's purposes in saving His elect are NOT ABOUT MAN. God's purpose is not to make us feel good...it is not about man at all.


God's purposes in saving His people are for His own glorification. And likewise, God's purposes for using the evil of Pharoah is for His own glorification. Many people who call themselves Christians actually think that salvation is about THEM and for THEM, but this is not the case, as Romans 9 teaches.

 

[Sola_Fide]

...but never did Christ say "I have chosen a few of you,the rest of you were made for hell". People were not created for hell.

Yes, He did. In several places, here's one:

John 10:24-29 NASB

The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

[moostraks]

If Calvinism is so bad why can't you argue against it on the terms it stands on rather than on a giant straw man argument?

Strawman argument? If the god you define determines all of person's actions for the purpose of its glory then why do children get sexually abused? If there is no free will but predetermined actions who is responsible for the acts of the molester?

If I choose to not serve the god the Calvinist claim calls me who chose to glorify himself through my pain, am I not on the outside of the chosen few?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Strawman argument? If the god you define determines all of person's actions for the purpose of its glory then why do children get sexually abused? If there is no free will but predetermined actions who is responsible for the acts of the molester?

If I choose to not serve the god the Calvinist claim calls me who chose to glorify himself through my pain, am I not on the outside of the chosen few?

Can you please exegete Romans 9:14-24 to show me why I shouldn't believe that God has an ultimately good purpose for the evil of men?

Romans 9:14-24 NLT

Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! For God said to Moses,“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”


So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”


So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.


Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”


No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God?


Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”


When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?


In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.


He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.


And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

 

[moostraks]

Because Arminians don't fare to well when they have to follow a passage of scripture from beginning to end, like Romans 9, or John 10, or Ephesians 1, etc etc etc.

I posted Romans 9 a few days ago and after all of the rejections I've seen on these boards, not ONE person has copied the text and exegeted it verse by verse.

If you disagree that God has a purpose for evil in this world. Fine. But if you do not exegete Romans 9, then I will give you no credibility.


But the reason that Arminians can't follow a passage of scripture from beginning to end is because their views are not Biblical. If you are going to say your views are Biblical but can't follow the text through, then something is wrong with your view.

But, I say this with all gentleness and respect. I was once an Arminian myself, but when I came in to contact with the doctrines of grace, God changed me. And I believe He will show all of His elect (and the ones who hate Him) the glories of His matchless grace.

AB continue to preach with that arrogance and security. You don't say it with gentleness and respect but a false sense of superiority and pride. No one has to waste their time on an exercise of futility. People have given you links and you ignore them because you don't want to discuss the matter you wish to keep blustering about how if people don't do it your way it's cause their scared not because they have the good sense to know when its a lost cause to continue to argue something that gains nothing but ill feelings. Stop insulting people because they don't want to play some silly power game you are bent on playing right now...

 

[moostraks]

Can you please exegete Romans 9:14-24 to show me why I shouldn't believe that God has an ultimately good purpose for the evil of men?

I gave you the links and told you why I won't waste my time with this as long as we disagree with free will. One small selection taken out of the bible does not a point make especially when you fancy that modern thinkers know more than church tradition and custom on the matter...

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Can you please exegete Romans 9:14-24 to show me why I shouldn't believe that God has an ultimately good purpose for the evil of men?

Romans 10:9-13
New International Version (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Footnotes:

calvanism overlooks the grace and love God gives through salvation. Obviously calvanism puts more power in the idea of "sin" ruling the world than it does in the power of the name of the savior Jesus.

 

[Miss Annie]

When I think about the Sovereignty of God and questioning it...... I am always reminded of Job 40 -42.

 

[Sola_Fide]

AB continue to preach with that arrogance and security. You don't say it with gentleness and respect but a false sense of superiority and pride. No one has to waste their time on an exercise of futility. People have given you links and you ignore them because you don't want to discuss the matter you wish to keep blustering about how if people don't do it your way it's cause their scared not because they have the good sense to know when its a lost cause to continue to argue something that gains nothing but ill feelings. Stop insulting people because they don't want to play some silly power game you are bent on playing right now...

Power game? Please accept my humble apology if you think I am playing a power game. I have no interest in power at all. I only have an interest in God's Word. Believe me, I have been and will continue to be wrong about tons of things. I am sooooo fallible and stupid. I freely admit that. Please accept my apology if I came across as arrogant.

Here is a post I put up with a great video in it about Romans 9. I also copied the text of Romans 9 so you could read along.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-You-Ever-Read-Romans-9&p=4192715#post4192715

What do you think about what he says?

Better yet, what do you think about Romans 9?

 

[moostraks]

I don't disagree. I believe that God uses it to refine us....... as Silver is refined in the fire.

How does sexual abuse refine a child? Does it give you pause for thought to believe in a god that makes a molester abuse a child for the purpose of making that child a better person? Do you question a god who makes someone a molester? Or do you think a loving god might extend the right of free will so that instead the victim suffered because of a person who chose to misuse their rights to make choices and then the victim can likewise choose to do the right or wrong things?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Romans 8:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

the Holy Spirit intercedes,and the will of God was salvation for all who would accept Christ.The Holy Spirit has the power to intercede,this goes back to my first reply to the thread.