Calvinism and the Truth

[TomL]

Let me get this straight. You are saying that because you are exercising your faith you believe god's existence is truth. I get that. But to me that is a completely irrational statement...you are saying what you believe to be true...BUT that doesn't make it true and that's my point. That is what I mean by "wake-up." It's just like all the 9-11 truthers out there..they believe 9-11 was an inside job...BUT do we really know it was? Again, believing something is true doesn't make it true...

Part of "growing up" means entertaining two totally conflicting points of view. The fact that one cannot prove the existence of god doesn't provide evidence that god exists...

Then I most be growing up because I have entertained the two totally conflicting points of view. I am human, and sometimes I doubt the existence of God. For example, I have often prayed for Whitney Houston. I have asked God to help her with her life. It seems that God ignored my prayers. However, it appears that she had a stronger faith than I do. The last song she sang publicly was "Jesus Loves Me." And in her 2009 CD she included a song called "I Look To You." "You" meaning God. So, perhaps my prayers have been answered. Perhaps God gave her a strong faith.

When I doubt the existence of God, I look at creation. Except for man, there is no difference between the creation narrative in Genesis and creation today. There is still light and darkness, called day and night. The sun, moon and stars are still there. We still have plant life, animal life, insect life, etc., all as it has been created.

I will stipulate that that isn't proof as such. But it is enough proof needed for a person that has a faith toward creationism.

But, you have faith as well. You believe there is no God, yet you have no proof. So, what you believe is not necessarily truth either. Or do you have empirical proof that there is no God?

 

[BUSHLIED]

Then I most be growing up because I have entertained the two totally conflicting points of view. I am human, and sometimes I doubt the existence of God. For example, I have often prayed for Whitney Houston. I have asked God to help her with her life. It seems that God ignored my prayers. However, it appears that she had a stronger faith than I do. The last song she sang publicly was "Jesus Loves Me." And in her 2009 CD she included a song called "I Look To You." "You" meaning God. So, perhaps my prayers have been answered. Perhaps God gave her a strong faith.

When I doubt the existence of God, I look at creation. Except for man, there is no difference between the creation narrative in Genesis and creation today. There is still light and darkness, called day and night. The sun, moon and stars are still there. We still have plant life, animal life, insect life, etc., all as it has been created.

I will stipulate that that isn't proof as such. But it is enough proof needed for a person that has a faith toward creationism.

But, you have faith as well. You believe there is no God, yet you have no proof. So, what you believe is not necessarily truth either. Or do you have empirical proof that there is no God?

I am not interested in getting into a debate over the existence of GOD. From reading this post, I can see where you are coming from. From my experience it most likely useless to try to educate you on the matter. My only point is that belief is NOT truth and you should reference your beliefs as such. that my biggest complaint about people who discuss their religion as the truth. I don't claim there is no god, I don't know...but what I do know is that if GOD were real, we wouldn't be calling it FAITH, we wouldn't be debating the issue...

 

[TomL]

I am not interested in getting into a debate over the existence of GOD. From reading this post, I can see where you are coming from. From my experience it most likely useless to try to educate you on the matter. My only point is that belief is NOT truth...

And I have stipulated to that. But the truth of God is the object of my faith.

and you should reference your beliefs as such. that my biggest complaint about people who discuss their religion as the truth. I don't claim there is no god, I don't know...but what I do know is that if GOD were real, we wouldn't be calling it FAITH, we wouldn't be debating the issue...

Sorry if I misunderstood. I thought you were saying there is no God.

Have you ever heard of Josh McDowell? He was an avowed atheist that set out to prove God did not exist. But his research proved otherwise to him. He then wrote a book called, "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." If you can find it, I suggest you read it. There is evidence of God's existence, and he shares it in that book.

 

[Beorn]

If GOD were real, we wouldn't be calling it FAITH, we wouldn't be debating the issue...

I don't think you understand what faith means. Belief and faith do not mean the same thing. For example the Bible states that the devil believes in God, but he certainly doesn't have faith in God. Faith requires reliance upon the object. Moreover, I think you overestimate your own ability to comprehend reality outside of reliance on faith. Ultimately, you must have faith in your own reason and your own senses in order to believe anything.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

people resort to ad hominid attacks when they cannot respond intellectually. As I said, leave the word "Truth" out of the topic and then I could see my post as trolling.



My posts are in direct reference to these statements. Posts like this can be considered the same as FOX News propaganda. IN this case, this is philosophical and intellectual propaganda. Those of us interested in The Truth must shut down falsehoods and distortions, just like we do to the news that distorts and lies about Dr. Paul.

Your "intellectual" statements are just vitriol. You clearly attacked the OP and anyone who posts in this thread as being below your intellect...because apparently you know the absolute truth and come here to tell us that you know the absolute truth....*cough cough YOUR "truth". Good attempt at trolling. ^_^ you lose

 

[jmdrake]

Yep. Faith is NOT truth. It is simply another word for belief...people believe that god exists, they cannot know that god exists. I like how Marx's describes religion: Religion is the opium of the masses..an Illusion.

I pray that you will have a YumYum experience. He was agnostic/borderline atheist until Jesus worked a miracle in his life. And positive conversations between Christians on this forum had something to do with his spiritual journey. Praise Jesus for the small miracles in life.

 

[jmdrake]

Go through the 5 points of TULIP and show them to be incorrect.
Calvinism affirms God's grace in man's salvation, and other systems teach that man has to have some part in his own salvation.

The Bible teaches that man has a part in his own salvation.

Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Man's "work" is to abide in Christ.

John 15:4

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

I could not serve a god that created people to be lost.

 

[Southron]

I have a question for the Arminians. If Christ's death only made salvation possible, but didn't secure the salvation of any particular person, isn't it possible that His death wouldn't save anyone? If true, God's work could have been frustrated by man's will. Are you comfortable with that possibility.?

I also believe that if man's "unbreakable will" is the final determiner in his salvation, then he has grounds to boast. He could boast that he was smarter, or wiser than the man who rejected this free grace.

 

[Beorn]

The Bible teaches that man has a part in his own salvation.

Philippians 2:12

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Man's "work" is to abide in Christ.

John 15:4

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Salvation includes Regeneration/Justification, Sanctification, and glorification.

I as a Calvinist agree with the statements above in that I think it's pretty clear those verses are referring to the sanctification aspect of salvation which is synergistic and reliant upon the will of God and Man. Whereas justification and regeneration are clearly monergistic and reliant upon the grace of God alone.

To conflate justification and sanctification is a great error and risks making the death of Christ of none effect.

Romans 8:29-33
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

 

[jmdrake]

Salvation includes Regeneration/Justification, Sanctification, and glorification.

I as a Calvinist agree with the statements above in that I think it's pretty clear those verses are referring to the sanctification aspect of salvation which is synergistic and reliant upon the will of God and Man. Whereas justification and regeneration are clearly monergistic and reliant upon the grace of God alone.

To conflate justification and sanctification is a great error and risks making the death of Christ of none effect.

I'm not conflating justification and sanctification. Not at all. Man has a part in justification. That is accepting Jesus righteousness. Jesus made that clear in the parable of the wedding garment. All of the invited guests were offered a garment, but one chose not to put that garment on. All he had to do was to accept a free gift, but he refused. He thought his clothes were good enough. But Jesus said our righteousness is as filthy rags. And making the death of Christ "of none effect" is believing that Christ didn't die for everyone when the Bible is clear that He did.

 

[jmdrake]

I have a question for the Arminians. If Christ's death only made salvation possible, but didn't secure the salvation of any particular person, isn't it possible that His death wouldn't save anyone? If true, God's work could have been frustrated by man's will. Are you comfortable with that possibility.?

I also believe that if man's "unbreakable will" is the final determiner in his salvation, then he has grounds to boast. He could boast that he was smarter, or wiser than the man who rejected this free grace.

It is possible that man can frustrate God's perfect will, but not God's permissive will. That is because God wills that man have freewill. We were created in God's image. That means that God gave us, among other things, the power of choice. To claim that God can't give freewill is to limit the power of God. But man cannot frustrate God's perfect will. For example man could not keep Christ in the grave.

 

[Beorn]

I'm not conflating justification and sanctification. Not at all. Man has a part in justification. That is accepting Jesus righteousness. Jesus made that clear in the parable of the wedding garment. All of the invited guests were offered a garment, but one chose not to put that garment on. All he had to do was to accept a free gift, but he refused. He thought his clothes were good enough. But Jesus said our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Sure, from certain perspectives it may appear that man has a part in the beginning of salvation. If I go to a church where an alter call is given I can see someone get up and go forward to become saved apparently in and of their own will. But, it's a mistake to make determinations about how things are working on a spiritual level mainly based on our own observations on a physical level. The question is why did he not put on the garment. That parable directly answers that question.

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."—Matthew 22:11-14.

While God may make the offer of salvation open to all only those who have been chosen and have been given a changed nature have the ability to respond.

And making the death of Christ "of none effect" is believing that Christ didn't die for everyone when the Bible is clear that He did.

Do you believe everyone will be saved?

 

[BUSHLIED]

I pray that you will have a YumYum experience. He was agnostic/borderline atheist until Jesus worked a miracle in his life. And positive conversations between Christians on this forum had something to do with his spiritual journey. Praise Jesus for the small miracles in life.

I may have a "yumyum" whatever that is...who knows? But what I do know and I hate to rain on everyone's parade here is that FAITH and BELIEF are essentially the same thing. The person who believes in god treats god as something that is real despite no evidence of god existence, in this case: a judeo-christian god, a human type of god. The person of faith has to "suspend" reality or any conflicting evidence to the contrary in order to maintain their faith or beliefs...

In any event, my main point is that when people of faith talk about God they need to use language that indicates that they are talking about their faith and should NEVER use the word TRUTH.

People who are advanced in their faith, never use the word truth etc...they will say: According to my faith or my beliefs [and if they are really advanced they will say "which may or may not be true, I don't know], god is believed to be all-loving and to forgive people for their sins.

So, what I would like to hear people say is this: According to my beliefs, which may or may not be true, I have no idea but I still choose to believe that god is all loving and forgives people for their sins.

Notice they never use the word truth. If a person said this to me, I would say thanks for being honest, we are all entitled to our BELIEFS.

 

[realtonygoodwin]

I BELIEVE that my FAITH is true.

How is that?

 

[Beorn]

I may have a "yumyum" whatever that is...who knows? But what I do know and I hate to rain on everyone's parade here is that FAITH and BELIEF are essentially the same thing. The person who believes in god treats god as something that is real despite no evidence of god existence, in this case: a judeo-christian god, a human type of god. The person of faith has to "suspend" reality or any conflicting evidence to the contrary in order to maintain their faith or beliefs...

In any event, my main point is that when people of faith talk about God they need to use language that indicates that they are talking about their faith and should NEVER use the word TRUTH.

People who are advanced in their faith, never use the word truth etc...they will say: According to my faith or my beliefs [and if they are really advanced they will say "which may or may not be true, I don't know], god is believed to be all-loving and to forgive people for their sins.

So, what I would like to hear people say is this: According to my beliefs, which may or may not be true, I have no idea but I still choose to believe that god is all loving and forgives people for their sins.

Notice they never use the word truth. If a person said this to me, I would say thanks for being honest, we are all entitled to our BELIEFS.

I think your real problem is that you don't appreciate the fact that others affirm the existence of a God by whom some day you will be judged. But, how we word those beliefs has little impact on whether your judgment will come or not. If that judgment is real and we Christians believe it to be real then we would be doing a disservice to all by pretending it is anything, but real.

 

[realtonygoodwin]

I'm not conflating justification and sanctification. Not at all. Man has a part in justification. That is accepting Jesus righteousness. Jesus made that clear in the parable of the wedding garment. All of the invited guests were offered a garment, but one chose not to put that garment on. All he had to do was to accept a free gift, but he refused. He thought his clothes were good enough. But Jesus said our righteousness is as filthy rags. And making the death of Christ "of none effect" is believing that Christ didn't die for everyone when the Bible is clear that He did.

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
(Romans 5:9 ESV)

Justification, according to Paul, was done by the death of Christ on the cross, not by anything we as sinners did.

 

[BUSHLIED]

I BELIEVE that my FAITH is true.

How is that?

Sorta. I suppose the point I am making is that just because you believe something to be true doesn't make it true. That is I would like to hear from believers. I want them to be honest with me and themselves. I want them to recognize that while they may hold beliefs that they may or may not be true they shouldn't try to impose them on others in deed or word. That they cannot use the word truth. They must always use the word faith or belief. I want them to be aware that they are chosing are to believe in something that has absolutely no evidence. I want them to know that they are irrational. That, in fact, they not thinking correctly. I would find it interesting to know why people still choose to believe in god despite all the intellectual and scientific evidence to the contrary??

 

[Beorn]

I want them to know that they are irrational. That, in fact, they not thinking correctly. I would find it interesting to know why people still choose to believe in god despite all the intellectual and scientific evidence to the contrary??

If there is no God why does it matter if people think correctly?

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

This is your one true god!

Kneel.

Has it occured to anyone, that, a personified God is about as egotistical and humanist centered as was the Earth-Centric Universe of the 15th and 16th Century? Naw.

 

[Beorn]

This is your one true god!

Kneel.

Has it occured to anyone, that, a personified God is about as egotistical and humanist centered as was the Earth-Centric Universe of the 15th and 16th Century? Naw.

And, the alternative?

Each person determines their own subjective reality?

That's not humanistic or egotistical at all.