Bill Kristol admits Ron (and Rand) Paul supporters are the future of the GOP

[Tpoints]

Admits?? Is Bill Kristol known for accurate predictions?

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

My response to that would be... true conservatism is due for a win.

Now is not the time to stop.

I understand. But I would argue that true conservatism can't win all of the time, and has only won a very small number of times. And when it did win, it still wasn't even close to being enough. Also, I didn't say 'stop'. What I mean to say is to 'change tactics'. To reiterate, politics follows public opinion, not the other way around. We've seen politicians in the last 4 years change what they say and on the very rare occasion, what they do. Wouldn't it be prudent and more efficient to change tactics?

 

[deadfish]

Lol... this clip was delicious. How'd they get away with saying all this without someone in the earpiece telling them to stop?

Someone must have been on vacation.

 

[Shane Harris]

My only concern is the people who pay just enough attention to be complete idiots. The ones that will hear "Rand Paul" and 'think' (I use that term loosely) it's "Ron Paul" again. These are the same morons that thought we were talking about "RuPaul" in 2008 whenever Ron was mentioned. If only Rand's name was "Andrew Paul" or something distinctly different to ensure no possible confusion. This probably sounds crazy but from a marketing perspective it concerns me.

Thats why we go with 'RAND 2016' with regards to marketing. Everyone who likes Ron already knows who Rand is, while those uninformed idiots turned off by Ron will be spared the last name (at least in the most superficial form of marketing) and therefore the confusion. After a few debates this should all disappear though, as everyone gets to know Rand. I only see the confusion you're talking about possibly skewing early polling.

 

[Brett85]

Interesting. My mother called me and told me she heard a similar conversation on the radio. (Republicans saying "Maybe we compromise on social issues like abortion" and saying "Ron Paul" in the same breath.) Here's the irony. Ron Paul is rock solid on conservative social issues! It's harder to get more "pro life" than Ron Paul without going crazy like Santorum. It's the wars stupid! (I'm glad someone brought up the foreign policy issue). It's also civil liberties. Does who can marry who even resonate in a country where American citizens can be detained without trial or even extra-judicially killed? Does your marital status even matter if you are illegally detained or on a kill list?

Exactly right. The GOP esbalishment thinks they have to now take pro choice and pro gay marriage positions in order to win future elections, when in reality it's their foreign policy and their support of the police state that has hurt their popularity.

 

[RCA]

I call BS. It's just another way to make us think we are relevant. Fuck 'em and fuck politics. You don't change the mafia by joining it.

 

[Shane Harris]

I call BS. It's just another way to make us think we are relevant. Fuck 'em and fuck politics. You don't change the mafia by joining it.

did you vote for Ron Paul? If not, why are you on this forum? If so, that action seems to contradict your statement. I'm ancap too, I sympathize with your statement, but I still think that having people within the system that can use the political process to educate and work against the system as best they can is not entirely a waste. I am in favor of any progress in the right direction. Rothbard was very involved in the LP. He was interested in educating and winning elections and making change, despite being an anarchist.

 

[NoOneButPaul]

I call BS. It's just another way to make us think we are relevant. Fuck 'em and fuck politics. You don't change the mafia by joining it.

So is that what Ron Paul did in 1996, after he had left?

Did he change nothing by "joining" the mafia?

Ron Paul gave us the blueprint, now we have to keep following it...

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

So is that what Ron Paul did in 1996, after he had left?

Did he change nothing by "joining" the mafia?

Ron Paul gave us the blueprint, now we have to keep following it...

No, he didn't change anything. In fact, it got substantially worse. I'll state it again because it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Ron Paul changed the world because he talked with people and debated with people. All of his votes don't even come close to having the impact that his speaking did. And it was the game of politics that shut his speaking down at the most crucial point of the 2012 election.

And what blueprint are you talking about? The one he spoke about, or the one he lived? Because just like Jefferson, Ron Paul said and did two different things.

“Ideas are very important to the shaping of society. In fact, they are more powerful than bombings or armies or guns. And this is because ideas are capable of spreading without limit. They are behind all the choices we make. They can transform the world in a way that governments and armies cannot. Fighting for liberty with ideas makes more sense to me than fighting with guns or politics or political power. With ideas, we can make real change that lasts.”
― Ron Paul, Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom

 

[NoOneButPaul]

No, he didn't change anything. In fact, it got substantially worse. I'll state it again because it doesn't seem to be sinking in. Ron Paul changed the world because he talked with people and debated with people. All of his votes don't even come close to having the impact that his speaking did. And it was the game of politics that shut his speaking down at the most crucial point of the 2012 election.

And what blueprint are you talking about? The one he spoke about, or the one he lived? Because just like Jefferson, Ron Paul said and did two different things.

“Ideas are very important to the shaping of society. In fact, they are more powerful than bombings or armies or guns. And this is because ideas are capable of spreading without limit. They are behind all the choices we make. They can transform the world in a way that governments and armies cannot. Fighting for liberty with ideas makes more sense to me than fighting with guns or politics or political power. With ideas, we can make real change that lasts.”
― Ron Paul, Liberty Defined: 50 Essential Issues That Affect Our Freedom

And i'll state again... how could the bolded been done outside of the GOP?

What people here don't understand, and what even Ron doesn't understand, is being a national political figure gives you the GREATEST AUDIENCE to educate. Without Ron debating on the national stage in 2007 we'd still be lost.

Without the platform that was given these past 2 elections there would have been no educating anyone to the degree Ron did.

If you want to educate the masses then you've got to get the masses together to listen... that's best done within a party structure.

If you went door to door the rest of your life preaching the message you wouldn't get as far as Ron did by having millions watching him debate.

Ideas are VERY important, but without a real platform to give those ideas you'll never get anywhere...

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

And i'll state again... how could the bolded been done outside of the GOP?

What people here don't understand, and what even Ron doesn't understand, is being a national political figure gives you the GREATEST AUDIENCE to educate. Without Ron debating on the national stage in 2007 we'd still be lost.

Without the platform that was given there would have been no education to anyone.

Yes, once. To get a fire started you may need to douse it with lighter fluid. But be careful! If you keep dousing it, it's likely to blow up in your face.

Politics corrupts. The freedom message is not new to politics. It got corrupted and co-opted and eventually totally removed from the mainstream. The fire is now going strong and a bully pulpit that is controlled by those who would seek to destroy this message is no longer needed. It will not serve our purposes well at all.

It's like saying, "Anti-biotics cured me of strep throat! Everyone should be on anti-biotics all the time! That is how we cure the world!"

No.

 

[NoOneButPaul]

So because politics corrupts we should just not go that route at all even though it gives us by far the best chance to reach the most people and was a crazy successful route for Ron Paul and all the other Liberty Republicans that were elected last Tuesday?

I happen to think 2million primary voters is not enough... we need to keep educating the masses and that's best done with a political platform where the masses come to you.

 

[Adrock]

And i'll state again... how could the bolded been done outside of the GOP?

What people here don't understand, and what even Ron doesn't understand, is being a national political figure gives you the GREATEST AUDIENCE to educate. Without Ron debating on the national stage in 2007 we'd still be lost.

Without the platform that was given these past 2 elections there would have been no educating anyone to the degree Ron did.

If you want to educate the masses then you've got to get the masses together to listen... that's best done within a party structure.

If you went door to door the rest of your life preaching the message you wouldn't get as far as Ron did by having millions watching him debate.

Ideas are VERY important, but without a real platform to give those ideas you'll never get anywhere...

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. RP pretty much said that if he didn't have the GOP then no one have heard hid message in 2008.

+ rep

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

So because politics corrupts we should just not go that route at all even though it gives us by far the best chance to reach the most people?

I happen to think 2million primary voters is not enough... we need to keep educating the masses and that's best done with a political platform where the masses come to you.

Well, do you want to keep the message of Liberty from being turned into the message of "Freedoms" which have to be "defended" from "terrorists"? or some such non-sense? In other words, and in Paul's words, YES. Get yourself and everyone you know out of politics. Delegitimize the system and it won't have any power anymore. Our best chance to reach the most people is to talk with those people in our lives. If everyone on this forum converted just two people, those two people will then convert another two people and so on, 10's of millions would be converted in a far less amount of time than if we tried to convert people by electing politicians.

Educating masses does not happen through politics. Ron Paul was the exception. To try and make him the Rule is complete folly. Ron Paul knows this. He's tried to get other people to see it. His mistake, though, is the same mistake most parents commit with their children. "Do as I say and not as I do." People who follow (as children do) will always ignore the saying and simply imitate the doing. Which leads to history repeating.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. RP pretty much said that if he didn't have the GOP then no one have heard hid message in 2008.

+ rep

I already addressed this argument in the previous post.

 

[Adrock]

I already addressed this argument in the previous post.

You seem to think we are cured. I think we are far from it. The GOP is currently the delivery method for the antibiotics. I feel that what you are advocating is stopping treatment a quarter of the way through.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

You seem to think we are cured. I think we are far from it. The GOP is currently the delivery method for the antibiotics. I feel that what you are advocating is stopping treatment a quarter of the way through.

You may have a good point here. And I'll have to think about that. Right now I don't think this is true because it is not political action that will save the people of America. Minds have to be changed and political action is more of a hindrance to this than a benefit.

 

[Pisces]

Interesting. My mother called me and told me she heard a similar conversation on the radio. (Republicans saying "Maybe we compromise on social issues like abortion" and saying "Ron Paul" in the same breath.) Here's the irony. Ron Paul is rock solid on conservative social issues! It's harder to get more "pro life" than Ron Paul without going crazy like Santorum. It's the wars stupid! (I'm glad someone brought up the foreign policy issue). It's also civil liberties. Does who can marry who even resonate in a country where American citizens can be detained without trial or even extra-judicially killed? Does your marital status even matter if you are illegally detained or on a kill list?

I think Fox purposely tries to insinuate that the Paul's are social liberals because they know that will hurt them within the party. I generally prefer a 10th amendment policy on social issues, except abortion, but I don't think they're the millstone many people think they are. Bush got more votes in 2004 than Obama did in 2012 and a lot of that was because of social issues. The religious right actually brought voters to the party that were not necessarily all that interested in economic policy. The problem with Bush was the wars and the police state, not his relatively mild social conservatism. Of course, you can't be an idiot like Akin or Mourdock about rape and abortion.

 

[Adrock]

You may have a good point here. And I'll have to think about that. Right now I don't think this is true because it is not political action that will save the people of America. Minds have to be changed and political action is more of a hindrance to this than a benefit.

Plus rep for being openminded. I think that we need an all of the above approach in order to change the culture. I am pretty stoked about the progress we have had so far, and also what is to come.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Plus rep for being openminded. I think that we need an all of the above approach in order to change the culture. I am pretty stoked about the progress we have had so far, and also what is to come.

What I fear is that the people in the movement who decide to go the political route may experience a few wins, but then get sucked in to the machine and become what they were fighting against. Then the people who didn't use politics will now face the establishment + compromised libertarians. Compromised libertarians can really hurt the forward progress of the movement more than a straight up communist.

And it is undeniable that politics will corrupt people.