Beware Of "seeds Of Doubt" Planted By Non-ron Paul Supports

Perfect example.

Fact is moles and trolls are in the forums. If you don't believe me check out the poster Wingman for an obvious example. He was trying to get people to agree that public executions of certain high government officials was a good idea.

Most of them aren't so stupidly obvious, but just look for criticism without constructive, or negativity without encouragement, or continually naysaying any positive ideas. They're in here all right ;)

What, how? I don't appreciate being called a troll, and I think I've done a lot to help encourage people; especially in the economics and fundraising forum.

Someone can support Ron Paul, and what to talk about the issues facing his campaign without agreeing with everyone else who supports him -- especially on contentious issues like voter fraud.
 
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What, how? I don't appreciate being called a troll, and I think I've done a lot to help encourage people; especially in the economics and fundraising forum.

Someone can support Ron Paul, and what to talk about the issues facing his campaign without agreeing with everyone else who supports him -- especially on contentious issues like voter fraud.

My apologies diesirae, I did reply to your post as an example of a what a troll might post without being clear I didn't mean to specify you personally as a troll. This was a mistake.

I thought I had been clear in pointing out that I was saying a former forum member, Wingman, was the troll.

There are people in this forum who seem to post a preponderance of negative and discouraging replies to any idea or suggestion, and while some of them may simply be very cynical and pessimistic undoubtedly others are either trolling for fun or trolling to deliberately sew discontent.

I do not accuse you of such, and again I apologize for giving that impression.

On the specific issue of voter fraud, well everyone pretty much acknowledges it happens at some level, but it is very much a controversial issue and easily dismissed as fringe or kook.

With regards to New Hampshire my position was and remains that, without individuals willing to file legal affidavits claiming fraud, there should have been no action taken by the official campaign. I am glad that they did not take action as that would have led to significant blowback from the media and the electorate.

However I am very glad that individuals not associated with the campaign took it upon themselves to demand and pay for a recount, as the several reports of Ron Paul receiving zero votes that suddenly turned out to be erroneous caused me concern.

I do also have concern that the vote counting is not completely transparent and reproducible to anyone willing to monitor the count or pay for a recount. As long as there is secrecy in the process there will be the potential for fraud.

I hope I have assuaged your feelings and answered your questions with this post.
 
There are about 7 people on this sub-forum that I've seen post nothing but negative crap. You can even go back in their histories and read every post they've ever put up and it's all negative.

They're either trolls or they're here researching negative articles for their blogs.

Yes! They're VERY easy to spot when you do this, I'm surprised some of them haven't been caught this way before.
Or they post a couple of positive ones to get their foot in the door and then it goes negative. Personally, if someone loses confidence in the candidate, why would you stick around? you wouldn't! So it's definitely to spread evil negativity. :p
 
It is not about free speech, that's BS. These are privately owned forums and they could have established rules to moderate the forums to be an effective tool. It started out well but as support for Ron Paul grew (again the purpose of the forums) the negatives were not managed properly. Just delete the posts and if the people don’t come back good, if they complain, delete that post too.

Flag posts that violate the forum guidelines with this icon:
report.gif


Read and understand the guidelines, they are an asset- see my sig for a link.

Thanks!
 
I was just talking about the general mentality of "anyone who dissents is a troll" (which was espoused in this thread by Shavenyak).

And no... I'm not sheltered... I don't watch CNN or Wolf Blitzer or believe that the gov't or large corporations have my best interests in mind.

I am logical. Nothing else. It is not logical to waste any more time on what most likely (according to statistics) was nothing in NH. It is not logical to ignore polls, and build up a bunch of false hope, when the vast majority of the time they are accurate predictors of how the election will play out. It is not logical to focus on conspiracies that can't be proven when all they serve to do is turn people off and make them think you're a "loon". It is not logical to ignore the methods that WIN elections just so we can hang on to how "right" we think we are about certain topics.

The only thing I have done up to this point is try to convince people to focus on what WORKS. Because everything else is irrelevant. If you lose the election then how "right" you are about those conspiracies does not matter. You will be no better off. You will still just be "some guy in the internet" ranting about big brother/military industrial complex/CIA/men in black/whatever who has no political representation.

Do what it takes to win... THEN use the influence you've gained to try to expose the conspiracies.


WATYF

I like your attitude, glad that you support Dr. Paul and agree with you on certain points. But, it is self-evident from you post that you indeed are 'sheltered':

...It is not logical to focus on conspiracies that can't be proven when all they serve to do is turn people off and make them think you're a "loon"....

COINTELPRO, is an acronym for a series of FBI counterintelligence programs designed to neutralize political dissidents, directed against American citizens and is 'Conspiracy Fact' as substantiated by our own Congressional investigations; the majority do not understand that.

Like trained monkeys, their responses are predictable, yet pitiful. I do not have a definitive answer if individuals are intentionally disruptive out of malice, but I think it is prudent to be wary.

IMO, this campaign is about education, our fellow Americans no longer possess the skills to function as citizens in a constitutional republic. Our success will hing on supporters educating fellow Americans to the point where Dr. Paul is the self-evident choice. Kissing babies, snappy sound-bytes and get-along-to-go-along will not prevail in this revolution, but knowledge will. I see this as due diligence on my part, as you are free to conduct yourself as you see fit.

I got this recommendation for a book I am reading from people on this forum. Listen to this Congressman's warning; it is as pertinent today as it was in 1971:

"The story you are about to read is true. The names have not been changed to protect the guilty. This book may have the effect of changing your life. After reading this book, you will never look at national and world events in the same way again.

None Dare Call It Conspiracy will be a very controversial book. At first it will receive little publicity and those whose plans are exposed in it will try to kill it by the silent treatment. For reasons that become obvious as you read this book, it will not be reviewed in all the "proper" places or be available on your local bookstand. However, there is nothing these people can do to stop a grass roots book distributing system. Eventually it will be necessary for the people and organizations named in this book to try to blunt its effect by attacking it or the author. They have a tremendous vested interest in keeping you from discovering what they are doing. And they have the big guns of the mass media at their disposal to fire the barrages at None Dare Call It Conspiracy.

By sheer volume, the "experts" will try to ridicule you out of investigating for yourself as to whether or not the information in this book is true They will ignore the fact that the author about to conjecture. They will find a typographical error or ague some point that is open to debate. If necessary they will lie in order to protect themselves by smearing this book. I believe those who pooh-pooh the information herein because Psychologically many people would prefer to believe we are because we all like to ignore bad news. We do so at our own peril.

Having been a college instructor, a State Senator and now a Congressman I have had experience with real professionals at putting up smokescreens to cover up their own actions by trying to destroy the accuser. I hope that you will read the book carefully, draw your own conclusions and not accept the opinions of those who of necessity must attempt to discredit the book. Your future may depend upon it.

October 25, 1971 JOHN G. SCMITZ UNITED STATES CONGRESSMAN"

Enjoy, whole book at link: http://reactor-core.org/none-dare.html#introduction
 
bump.

by Phil Manger
(Libertarian)
I guess we should have expected it.

The Beltway libertarians, those polished public intellectuals at Cato and Reason, have been falling all over themselves the past few days in an effort to distance themselves from Ron Paul following the "outing" of his old newsletters last week by The New Republic. Not that they were ever that close to begin with. The Cato gang never liked Dr. Paul, and the folks at Reason only warmed up to him after his campaign began to catch fire on the internet. Now, their blogs are full of I-told-you-sos, denunciations, and warnings of dire consequences for libertarianism.

Typical of these was David Boaz, Cato's executive vice-president, who told the world that "...over the past few months a lot of people have been asking why writers at the Cato Institute seemed to display a lack of interest in or enthusiasm for the Paul campaign. Well, now you know." Even Radley Balko, a Reason editor and former Cato policy analyst whose research on police misconduct made him one of the few shining lights among the Beltway libertarians in recent years, has joined the lynch mob. You can find links to dozens of other similar comments here.

Interestingly, all of them say they don't believe Dr. Paul is really a racist, and most of them say they believe him when he says he didn't write the articles in question. In fact, their real target seems to be something they call paleolibertarianism, a branch of libertarianism that has its center of gravity at the Ludwig von Mises Institute. And the man they really seem to loathe is the institute's president, Llewellyn H. Rockwell Jr. Ron Paul is merely collateral damage.

I should point out at this point that I really have no firsthand knowledge of any of the details of the mutual animosity that exists between the Beltway libertarians and the paleos. I only know that it exists and that it runs deep. I was a libertarian activist from the mid-'60s until the early '80s. I then decided to get a life and, except for an occasional blog post or attendance at a meeting, I was pretty much out of it for the next quarter century. It was my son who urged me to support Ron Paul in his run for President. (I didn't deliberately raise him to be a libertarian. Do you suppose it's genetic?) I did a lot of Googling of Ron Paul's name, and...well, here I am.

So, what about those newsletters? According to The New Republic article, the newsletters reveal "decades worth of obsession with conspiracies, sympathy for the right-wing militia movement, and deeply held bigotry against blacks, Jews, and gays". Actually, that's a gross overstatement. It's more like a careless phrase or choice of words here and there — sometimes very careless, and sometimes even mean.

What the newsletters remind me of is the "gold bug" marketing in the early '70s. The "gold bugs" — those who believed that the dollar was destined to continue to lose value — were a mixed bag: conspiracists, libertarians, John Birchers, survivalists (of both the Left and the Right), racialists, and some who just wanted to turn a quick profit. Following the dollar's devaluation in 1971 a number of businesses and newsletters appeared on the market to capitalize on the uncertainty of the times. They sold their wares, whether precious metals or newsletter subscriptions, by instilling fear and serving up red meat to the gold bugs. I remember attending one precious metals "seminar" in 1974. A black couple was sitting near me. When the speaker got to the part about riots in the cities and a breakdown of civil authority, I could see that the couple were extremely uncomfortable. They left before the end of the presentation.

For whatever reason, Ron Paul has a very bankable name in that market. The International Harry Schultz Letter, the granddaddy of all the gold bug newsletters, prominently features a plug from Dr. Paul on its webpage. So it would make sense that a newsletter bearing Paul's name, aimed at gold bugs or their like, would be profitable.

So, did Ron Paul write that awful stuff posted on TNR's website? I’m a former writer and editor and also a former college professor who got to be pretty good at sniffing out plagiarism in student papers, and I have to say I very much doubt it. It isn’t at all like Ron Paul’s style of writing (you can go to the Mises Institute website, where there is an extensive archive of Dr. Paul’s writings, if you don’t believe me), and there’s nothing in his voting record over 10 terms in Congress to suggest those are his views. I don't find it at all implausible that someone would use his name to sell subscriptions to a newsletter written and edited by others.

But I agree with Alex Wallenwein and Bill Westmiller that we need to know who did write that objectionable material so that we can move on. Otherwise, this stuff will come up again and again.

However, I am not so naive as to think that this will mollify the Beltway libertarians. In their writings on this controversy, I've detected a barely suppressed undercurrent of glee, as if they're trying to keep from shouting "Aha! Gotcha now!" They say they are concerned about what all this is doing to the reputation of libertarianism — although, it seems to me they're more concerned about what it's doing to their own standing in Georgetown — but I think they doth protest too much.

If the Beltway libertarians are really concerned about the reputation of libertarianism, let them take a look at what they're saying about Ron Paul over on the Left. Although they like his antiwar, pro-freedom message, a lot of the bloggers over there don't care for the fact that he's a libertarian. You see, they equate libertarianism with the Cato Institute. And to them, Cato is just another D. C. think tank laboring in the service of the corporate elites.
 
Ask yourself why they haven't dogged Hillary for her racism/anti-semitism which came from her mouth and actions, nor Obama's racist church?

Ron has never uttered a word of racism and the NAACP guy said as much.
I'd not keep repeating these unsubstantiated slurs, you're just making them go viral.
Do like Hillary and Obama do -- just ignore them.
 
PLEASE beware that there are those who are going into Ron Paul Forums and planting "seeds of doubt."

They talk about how they "don't know what to do," "Ron Paul's answer to the news letter and other publications is not enough," "they continue to support Ron Paul but won't send ANY money." "Ron Paul didn't apologize."

ALL THIS CRAP.

Don't fall for it. Just tell them to go ahead and vote for whoever they want.

"One monkey don't stop no show."

peace:)

ITS CALLED FUD - FEAR UNCERTAINTY AND DOUBT :mad:

FUD FOX NEWS!!!!!!
 
Well, my friend......

Back in the middle of October I was a regular, mal-adjusted, mostly apathetic Republican that saw the war as unpleasant and only thought about the decline of the dollar in terms of not being able to go to Europ this year.

Now, some 3 months later, many of my old friend that knew me then, are wondering where I got the tin foil hat.

I have seem enough and dug enough and read enough to know, trolls be damned.

Any seed of doubt will be like the seeds that fall on the beaten path of Luke 8:5, except my new knowledge is the bird that flitters them away.
 
I like your attitude, glad that you support Dr. Paul and agree with you on certain points. But, it is self-evident from you post that you indeed are 'sheltered'
No, it is not "self-evident" from my posts that I'm sheltered. It is, however, self-evident from your posts that you don't understand human behavior or the political process.

The vast majority of people make their political choices based on feelings. How they "feel" about a candidate. It is important to associate a positive feeling about your candidate the very first time that you introduce people to them. People also have numerous impulse responses, based on social conditioning. For example, talk to an Iraq war supporter and mention, "It was only about oil" and they will immediately discount everything you say after that and assume that you're a anti-American, anti-war hippie.

This is how people work. Yes, it is unfortunate, and yes there are exceptions, but it is still the sad truth.

The first impression that people get about Ron Paul is the most important one, because that's the one that they will most likely stick with (regardless of any information that comes their way after that). This is why the media is treating RP the way they are... because if they can give him almost no attention at all, but every once in a while mention the "fringe candidate Ron Paul" or point out some "crazy" aspect of his personality or views, then the first impression people will get of him is that he is just some doofus running for president who doesn't have any credibility or electability. After that point, there's not a whole lot he can say to sway many people, because they will have already written him off in their minds.

This is also why it's very dangerous to try to convince people to vote for Ron Paul by talking to them about conspiracies. I've said it elsewhere, but the fact of the matter is, conspiracies DO NOT PLAY in the general public. Yes, you will find the occasional like-minded individual who will either agree with you right away or think you may be on to something, but the vast.... vast.... vast majority of people will look at you like you just sprouted a third arm if you start going on about how 9/11 was an inside job or try to tell them about COINTELPRO.

This is not because what you're saying isn't true (I'm not saying it is or isn't... the point is that it's truthfulness is irrelevant). This is because most people do not want to accept that what they believe in is a lie. As a result, their first reaction will be to reject you wholesale, which means they'd reject Ron Paul (as being associated with you and your "crazy" views). Now, does that mean we should never try to expose conspiracies or tell people the truth? No... it just means that we shouldn't try to use "exposing conspiracies" as an election tactic. After the election, if Ron Paul wins, you'll have all the more opportunity to expose those conspiracies.

So... you can choose to do your "due diligence" and tell all kinds of people about all of the evil gov't conspiracies going on, and hope that you win all kinds of votes by doing so, but history and human psychology and political experience says that your method will fail much more often than it works.

And like I keep saying. Do.... what.... works.


WATYF
 
No, it is not "self-evident" from my posts that I'm sheltered. It is, however, self-evident from your posts that you don't understand human behavior or the political process.

The vast majority of people make their political choices based on feelings. How they "feel" about a candidate. It is important to associate a positive feeling about your candidate the very first time that you introduce people to them. People also have numerous impulse responses, based on social conditioning. For example, talk to an Iraq war supporter and mention, "It was only about oil" and they will immediately discount everything you say after that and assume that you're a anti-American, anti-war hippie.

This is how people work. Yes, it is unfortunate, and yes there are exceptions, but it is still the sad truth.

The first impression that people get about Ron Paul is the most important one, because that's the one that they will most likely stick with (regardless of any information that comes their way after that). This is why the media is treating RP the way they are... because if they can give him almost no attention at all, but every once in a while mention the "fringe candidate Ron Paul" or point out some "crazy" aspect of his personality or views, then the first impression people will get of him is that he is just some doofus running for president who doesn't have any credibility or electability. After that point, there's not a whole lot he can say to sway many people, because they will have already written him off in their minds.

This is also why it's very dangerous to try to convince people to vote for Ron Paul by talking to them about conspiracies. I've said it elsewhere, but the fact of the matter is, conspiracies DO NOT PLAY in the general public. Yes, you will find the occasional like-minded individual who will either agree with you right away or think you may be on to something, but the vast.... vast.... vast majority of people will look at you like you just sprouted a third arm if you start going on about how 9/11 was an inside job or try to tell them about COINTELPRO.

This is not because what you're saying isn't true (I'm not saying it is or isn't... the point is that it's truthfulness is irrelevant). This is because most people do not want to accept that what they believe in is a lie. As a result, their first reaction will be to reject you wholesale, which means they'd reject Ron Paul (as being associated with you and your "crazy" views). Now, does that mean we should never try to expose conspiracies or tell people the truth? No... it just means that we shouldn't try to use "exposing conspiracies" as an election tactic. After the election, if Ron Paul wins, you'll have all the more opportunity to expose those conspiracies.

So... you can choose to do your "due diligence" and tell all kinds of people about all of the evil gov't conspiracies going on, and hope that you win all kinds of votes by doing so, but history and human psychology and political experience says that your method will fail much more often than it works.

And like I keep saying. Do.... what.... works.


WATYF

This post hit the nail on the head.
 
There are about 7 people on this sub-forum that I've seen post nothing but negative crap. You can even go back in their histories and read every post they've ever put up and it's all negative.

They're either trolls or they're here researching negative articles for their blogs.

PLease name them so I can put them on my ignore list.
 
PLease name them so I can put them on my ignore list.

In an ironic way this is what a lot of voters have done to Ron Paul, put him on their IGNORE list, a lot of it has to do with RP Supporters, not RP's platform. So, I say again fight on people! Speak and share your thoughts people, don't let some narrow minded people silence you.
 
Sorry..there are a number of us that are "TRUE SUPPORTERS" and genuinely share these so-called 'seeds of doubt'.

And by their own testimony and response you can gauge who the Troll and Doubters are. On the same token we can weed them out.
There is no room for dissent towards Paul here.
We have chosen are side and stay loyal to our cause.
We dissent towards the establishment and come here for allies.
So the doubters and their seeds will be uprooted and called out as I find them.
 
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