Beware Of "seeds Of Doubt" Planted By Non-ron Paul Supports

[jmc1144]

Why would they start an account at Ron Paul Forums just to voice their dissenting opinion?

This happens at other candidate forums as well. Just go look at Huckabee's forums. There are definitely a ton of people on there that don't support him, and just make fun of him and his supporters.

 

[LukeNM]

Many good, honest, respectable people have been driven away from here by the moles and operatives. These people have therefore lost the ability to keep in touch with grassroots donation drives, etc.

If the people that have done this are true supporters, they are extremely childish and have done irreparable damage to the campaign. These potential supporters are gone and not coming back. Good job, mission accomplished!

The people who run this site are just as much to blame for allowing this to take place. The forums sub description reads "Grassroots Support For Ron Paul", but yet they allow smears, foul language, dissenters and every other form of negative activity to flourish here. I just don't get it.

It is not about free speech, that's BS. These are privately owned forums and they could have established rules to moderate the forums to be an effective tool. It started out well but as support for Ron Paul grew (again the purpose of the forums) the negatives were not managed properly. Just delete the posts and if the people don’t come back good, if they complain, delete that post too.

 

[WATYF]

Nice post and welcome. Other Possible Negative Talking points,

"1. Elections are valid, to dispute makes you a loon.
2. Mainstream polls are accurate (setting aside the irrationality that, yes, they were for RP in this case, but they were completely screwed for Obama/Hillary [in NH]).
3. Let's all gang up on HQ, call them names, demand firings, stop donating etc.
4. In general, lots of name calling and divisive behavior.


Most of the people who flock to RP still have their blinders on and think CNN is real news and Wolf Blitzer conducts a great interview."

Well... I don't wanna burst your bubble, but your opinions on those topics don't rule the universe. People are allowed to disagree with you for reasons other than "they're just a troll".

I agree with the OP that the people whining about RP not apologizing more over the newsletters are just wasting our time and energy. Everyone should let that issue die. But I also think that whining about vote counts (that pass logical muster) is a waste. Even the campaign itself has said not to bother with a NH recount, and for good (statistical and logical) reason. A dispute only makes you look like a loon if there isn't sufficient enough reason for it. It's not a black/white issue. Sometimes not disputing makes you look like a loon, but you have to examine every situation individually. You can't just jump straight to "we HAVE to dispute this" as some kind of knee-jerk reaction.

And I also agree with you that the name calling and divisive behavior is detrimental, and that bashing HQ doesn't do any good, but I don't agree about the polls. They are (way more often then not) accurate indicators of how things are going to play out. Yes, you could spend all of your time focusing on the ONE time so far in this primary where they got it wrong (for Clinton/Obama), or you could look at the hundreds of other scientific polls that have had RP's estimates dead-on.

Ignoring polls by sticking your head in the sand and chanting, "they're not accurate... they're not accurate... they're not accurate" will do you no good. If you don't see your numbers going up in the polls, then you're not winning. Polls are a very good indicator of which tactics are working and which messages resonate with the most people. Use them to your benefit. Ignore them at your peril.


WATYF

 

[WATYF]

Many good, honest, respectable people have been driven away from here by the moles and operatives. These people have therefore lost the ability to keep in touch with grassroots donation drives, etc.

If the people that have done this are true supporters, they are extremely childish and have done irreparable damage to the campaign. These potential supporters are gone and not coming back. Good job, mission accomplished!

The people who run this site are just as much to blame for allowing this to take place. The forums sub description reads "Grassroots Support For Ron Paul", but yet they allow smears, foul language, dissenters and every other form of negative activity to flourish here. I just don't get it.

It is not about free speech, that's BS. These are privately owned forums and they could have established rules to moderate the forums to be an effective tool. It started out well but as support for Ron Paul grew (again the purpose of the forums) the negatives were not managed properly. Just delete the posts and if the people don’t come back good, if they complain, delete that post too.

This is standard fare for every political contest since the beginning of time. Like someone else pointed out... the same things are happening on every other candidate's forums (and probably more so). If you think that a few weak-willed individuals being chased away from a internet forum by trolls is a major issue for this campaign, then your focus is in the completely wrong direction.

What happens within the confines of this forum will not win the election for Ron Paul. This forum is just one of many tools that can be used to get people informed and send them out into the REAL WORLD... which is where the election will be determined.

My advice would be not to focus on the petty little things that are happening on the internet, and focusing on what will win the candidacy. If someone gets out of hand, of course you ban them or warn them or whatever... but this is trivial crap compared to what needs to be done to win.


WATYF

 

[billyjoeallen]

bump

http://formerbeltwaywonk.wordpress.com/

the trolls are gettin uglier

 

[Cleaner44]

Shun the non-believers, shun them!

 

[billyjoeallen]

http://formerbeltwaywonk.wordpress.com/

stay positive. These trolls are energy vampires.

Ron paul 4th in Michigan! Who's the fringe candidate now, Rudy?

 

[TonySutton]

blimp

 

[billyjoeallen]

http://formerbeltwaywonk.wordpress.com/

stay positive. These trolls are energy vampires.

Ron paul 4th in Michigan! Who's the fringe candidate now, Rudy?

 

[lucius]

Well... I don't wanna burst your bubble, but your opinions on those topics don't rule the universe. People are allowed to disagree with you for reasons other than "they're just a troll". <snip>

I called no one a troll, but I think you are ‘sheltered’ and possibly fall into this group:

…
Most of the people who flock to RP still have their blinders on and think CNN is real news and Wolf Blitzer conducts a great interview."

It is shameful that a constitutional republic conducts these types of operations against their dissenting citizens. Open your eyes to the possibilities or, as you said, ignore at your peril.

“COINTELPRO is an acronym for a series of FBI counterintelligence programs designed to neutralize political dissidents.”

Government Documents
U.S. Congress. House. Committee on Internal Security. Hearings on Domestic Intelligence Operations for Internal Security Purposes. 93rd Cong., 2d sess, 1974.

U.S. Congress. House. Select Committee on Intelligence. Hearings on Domestic Intelligence Programs. 94th Cong., 1st sess, 1975.

U.S. Congress. Senate. Committee on Government Operations. Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations. Hearings on Riots, Civil and Criminal Disorders. 90th Cong., 1st sess. - 91st Cong. , 2d sess, 1967-1970.

U.S. Congress. Senate. Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities. Hearings -- The National Security Agency and Fourth Amendment Rights. Vol. 6. 94th Cong., 1st sess, 1975.

U.S. Congress. Senate. Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities. Hearings -- Federal Bureau of Investigation. Vol. 6. 94th Cong., 1st sess, 1975.

U.S. Congress. Senate. Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities. Final Report -- Book II, Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans. 94th Cong., 2d sess, 1976.

U.S. Congress. Senate. Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities. Final Report -- Book III , Supplementary Detailed Staff Reports on Intelligence Activities and the Rights of Americans. 94th Cong., 2d sess, 1976.

Books
Bamford, James, The Puzzle Palace (Penguin Press, 1983).

Blackstock, Nelson, COINTELPRO: The FBI's Secret War on Political Freedom (Pathfinder, 1975).

Buitrago, Ann Mari and Leon Andrew Immermann, Are You Now or Have You Ever Been in the FBI FILES: How to Secure and Interpret Your FBI Files (Grove Press Inc., 1981)

Churchill, Ward and Jim Vander Wall, Agents of Repression: The FBI's Secret Wars Against the Black Panther Party and the American Indian Movement (South End Press, 1988).

Central Intelligence Agency, Counterterrorist Program Primer (author and publication date unknown)

Churchill, Ward and Jim Vander Wall, The COINTELPRO Papers: Documents From the FBI's Secret Wars Against Dissent in the United States (South End Press, 1990).

Donner, Frank J.,The Age of Surveillance: The Aims and Methods of America's Political Intelligence System (Knopf, 1980).

Donner, Frank J., Protectors of Privilege: Red Squads and Police Repression in Urban America (University of California Press, 1990).

Donner, Frank J., The Un-Americans (Ballantine Books, 1961).

Garrow, David J., The FBI and Martin Luther King, Jr.: From "SOLO" to Memphis (Norton, 1981).

Gelbspan, Ross, Break-ins, Death Threats and the FBI: The Covert War Against the Central America Movement (South End Press, 1991).

Gentry, Curt, J. Edgar Hoover: The Man and the Secrets (W.W. Norton & Company, 1991) (excerpt on the discovery of the mob)

Glick, Brian, War at Home: Covert Action Against U.S. Activists and What We Can Do About It (South End Press) (excerpts COINTELPRO in the 60's * 70's* 80's & 90's).

Goldstein, Robert Justin, Political Repression in Modern America (Schenkman, 1978).

Haines, Gerald K. and David A. Langbart, Unlocking the Files of the FBI: A Guide to its Records and Classification System (Scholarly Resources, Inc., 1993)

Hoover, J. Edgar, Masters of Deceit (Pocket Books, 1959) (excerpt: Mass Agitation).

Jayco, Margaret, FBI on Trial: The victory in the Socialist Workers Party Suit against government spying (Pathfinder Press, 1988).

Johnson, Loch, A Season of Inquiry: The Senate Intelligence Investigation (University of Kentucky Press, 1985).

Lowenthal, Max, The Federal Bureau of Investigation (William Sloan Associates, Inc., 1950).

Marx, Gary T., Under Cover: Police Surveillance in America (University of California Press, 1988).

Matthiessen, Peter, In the Spirit of Crazy Horse (Viking Press, 1991)

O'Reilly, Kenneth, Hoover and the Un-Americans, (Temple University Press, 1983) (Excerpt from Chapter 8, Counterintelligence)

O'Reilly, Kenneth, Racial Matters: The FBI's Secret File on Black America, 1960-1972 (Free Press, 1989).

Schrecker, Ellen, The Age of McCarthyism: A Brief History with Documents (St. Martin's Press, 1994)

Sorrentino, Frank M., Ideological Warfare: The FBI's Path Toward Power (Associated Faculty Press, 1985).

Sullivan, William C., The Bureau: My Thirty Years in Hoover's FBI (Norton, 1979).

Swearingen, M. Wesley, FBI Secrets: An Agent's Expose (South End Press, 1995) (excerpt: The logistics of a black bag job).

Theoharis, Athan, Spying on Americans: Political Surveillance from Hoover to the Huston Plan (Temple University Press, 1978) (Chapter 5 - Political Counterintelligence).

Ungar, Sanford J., FBI: An Uncensored Look Behind the Walls (Little, Brown and Company, 1975).
Articles and Websites
Brandt, Daniel, The 1960s and COINTELPRO: In Defense of Paranoia (NameBase NewsLine, No. 10, July-September 1995)

Burghardt, Tom, Armies of Repression: The FBI, COINTELPRO, and Far Right Vigilantee Networks

Burghardt, Tom, The Public-Private Partnership

Centro para la Investgación y Promoción de Derechos Civiles Las Carpetas (FBI files on Puerto Rican activists)

Chomsky, Noam, Domestic Terrorism: Notes on the State System of Oppression (A revised version of the introduction to Nelson Blackstock's COINTELPRO, 1999)

Churchill, Ward, The Covert War Against Native Americans

Churchill, Ward, Wages of COINTELPRO Still Evident in Omaha Black Panther Case (3/10/99)

FBI Watch, The FBI ... Past, Present and Future

Glick, Brian, COINTELPRO Revisited - Spying & Disruption

Hanrahan, Noelle, America's Secret Police: FBI COINTELPRO in the 1990s

Hendricks Drew, Index to FBI Agents and Snitches

Ishgooda, COINTELPRO: The FBI War Against Leonard Peltier, Native News Online

Maoist International Movement, Black Panther Newspaper Collection (1967-1970)

Prison Activist Resource Center, Political Prisoners and POW's in the US

Rivero, Michael, What Really Happened? (COINTELPRO webpage)

Solomon, Norman, and Jeff Cohen, Nothing Vague About FBI Abuse: Here Are the Dossiers

Stec, Michael, Secret Documents (online document collection)

Waxman, Shelly, Some Call it Murder

Weinberg, Bill, Judi Bari Suit Reveals COINTELPRO Against Earth First! The Shadow, Issue #37.

Wolf, Paul et al, COINTELPRO: The Untold American Story CBC report to UNHCHR Mary Robinson at the World Conference Against Racism, Durban, South Africa (Sept. 1, 2001)

Zinn, Howard, The Federal Bureau of Intimidation (Covert Action Quarterly)
Other
Lee, Lee Lew, All Power to the People! The Black Panther Party and Beyond (Video, Electronic News Group, 1997).

ps: Here is why I support Dr. Paul; I believe Gurudas said it best in his 'Treason: The New World Order':

“All these people say there are powerful groups threatening our way of life. Some sources identify the bankers and corporate elite as the source of our problems, while others feel the national security state is the threat. The power of Wall Street is now obvious to many. So much is happening today that it is increasingly clear a police state is no longer some distant event to fear. The American people must awaken and join together to restore constitutional government and diminish the power of the large corporations and their agent, the federal government, so that we can again be a free people.”

 

[WATYF]

I called no one a troll, but I think you are ‘sheltered’ and possibly fall into this group:

I was just talking about the general mentality of "anyone who dissents is a troll" (which was espoused in this thread by Shavenyak).

And no... I'm not sheltered... I don't watch CNN or Wolf Blitzer or believe that the gov't or large corporations have my best interests in mind.

I am logical. Nothing else. It is not logical to waste any more time on what most likely (according to statistics) was nothing in NH. It is not logical to ignore polls, and build up a bunch of false hope, when the vast majority of the time they are accurate predictors of how the election will play out. It is not logical to focus on conspiracies that can't be proven when all they serve to do is turn people off and make them think you're a "loon". It is not logical to ignore the methods that WIN elections just so we can hang on to how "right" we think we are about certain topics.

The only thing I have done up to this point is try to convince people to focus on what WORKS. Because everything else is irrelevant. If you lose the election then how "right" you are about those conspiracies does not matter. You will be no better off. You will still just be "some guy in the internet" ranting about big brother/military industrial complex/CIA/men in black/whatever who has no political representation.

Do what it takes to win... THEN use the influence you've gained to try to expose the conspiracies.


WATYF

 

[fmontez]

... Or they have a dissenting opinion.

Bump!

Remember, not all RP supporters fit in the same mold.

 

[freelance]

PLEASE beware that there are those who are going into Ron Paul Forums and planting "seeds of doubt."

They talk about how they "don't know what to do," "Ron Paul's answer to the news letter and other publications is not enough," "they continue to support Ron Paul but won't send ANY money." "Ron Paul didn't apologize."

ALL THIS CRAP.

Don't fall for it. Just tell them to go ahead and vote for whoever they want.

"One monkey don't stop no show."

peace

BTW, I think you are right. I was not actually directing my last post at you. Stating things as a negative can also dredge up a negative. Sorry if you took it personally. That was not my intent, but I did want to warn against it. Guess I should have put a wink after BUSTED!

 

[fmontez]

I've always said, "beware of those saying 'beware of those,'" especially when he or she is new to a group and comes out with a negative in the form of unsolicited advice--just (poof) out of the blue.

BUSTED!

ah oh, I still don't think RP has provided a good answer to the NewsPaper scandal does that make me a Seed of Doubt?

 

[robotsworld]

BTW, I think you are right. I was not actually directing my last post at you. Stating things as a negative can also dredge up a negative. Sorry if you took it personally. That was not my intent, but I did want to warn against it.

It's ALL good.

You have a point.

You never can tell when reading from a post how things are actually meant.

be well.

 

[Dlynne]

ah oh, I still don't think RP has provided a good answer to the NewsPaper scandal does that make me a Seed of Doubt?

Yes. Either go along with the grassroots party line, or be banned to the Hot Topics forum where you will never be heard or your have your questions addressed.

 

[fmontez]

Oh, this is a no win argument. I see 6% and groan and call it a failure, others see 6% and call it a strong 4th place finish. Who is right? Me <--- j.k.

Newsletters, duck and hide or demand an answer? National, fire the lot of em or hail mary they are awesome and have some uper secret plan to sqaush the enemy on Super Tuesday.

All I know for sure is Dr. Paul is for freedom of speech! This forum should follow Dr. Pauls vision in that regard IMHO.

 

[freelance]

ah oh, I still don't think RP has provided a good answer to the NewsPaper scandal does that make me a Seed of Doubt?

No. I happen to agree with you.

 

[han_solo]

Sorry..there are a number of us that are "TRUE SUPPORTERS" and genuinely share these so-called 'seeds of doubt'.

 

[kellann]

Sorry..there are a number of us that are "TRUE SUPPORTERS" and genuinely share these so-called 'seeds of doubt'.

amen