Banning abortion doesn't make sense to me.

[tennman]

What about that whole, "Right to life" part of our founding documents? How can we claim to protect liberty if we say it's okay for one person to kill another? Just because we use another word for it - "abortion" - doesn't change what it is.

As Ron Paul has said many times, "If we won't protect life, how can we protect liberty?" Dr. Paul is not for the federal government getting involved in abortion because it's not their place. It's the states place just like with other forms of violent crime like murder.

 

[osan]

States rights makes no sense to me.

They shouldn't. States do not exist as such. How can a nonexistent thing have rights? Concepts such as "state" and "government" form what we call in mathematics an "equivalence class". It partitions a population into those who rule and those who are ruled. It is the oldest scam in the book and it is the very heart of empire​.

 

[Republicanguy]

At no point is it every right ti KILL a baby.

Just b/c my daughter got raped by some thug , does not mean I take a life to solve the problem. THAT IS A gift from god, a child,

Who are you to say that child does not have a right to live?

So how do you solve the problem, how can a reminder of a child through rape not be a problem.

God and religion is only a personal belief, not definately proven.

Are we all gifts from the creator...

 

[Nirvikalpa]

At no point is it every right ti KILL a baby.

Just b/c my daughter got raped by some thug , does not mean I take a life to solve the problem. THAT IS A gift from god, a child,

Who are you to say that child does not have a right to live?

You're right, you wouldn't take a "life" to solve the problem. She could though, unless you would physically stop her from doing so?

 

[wannaberocker]

Rape and Incest driven abortions are around 1% of all abortions. So, whenever people point to rape and invest in the abortion debate its kind of misleading. Overwhelming Majority of abortions have absolutely nothing to do with rape or incest.

 

[angelatc]

So how do you solve the problem, how can a reminder of a child through rape not be a problem.

..

Once again, children are not "problems." Not all women who get pregnant through rape choose to abort the child. In fact, some of them even choose to keep the baby.

And besides, people can recover from emotional trauma. Murder is forever.

 

[osan]

At no point is it every right ti KILL a baby.

Presumes facts not in evidence.

Just b/c my daughter got raped by some thug , does not mean I take a life to solve the problem. THAT IS A gift from god, a child,

Not your business. Were I a woman in that situation and you attempted to stop me from terminating such a pregnancy I would regard that as a threat to my life and limb and I would respond accordingly, resulting in a very costly lesson to you in minding your own business. I speak for nobody else.

Who are you to say that child does not have a right to live?

Who are you to dictate to others on such matters. MYOFB.

 

[osan]

Dupe. I guess that'll learn me to post from a stupid smart phone.

 

[wannaberocker]

Our current system is broke. Right now an unborn child is considered a “Life” if the mother wants to keep it and it not considered a “Life” if the mother wants to abort it.

We got get away from that. If it’s a life, then it’s a life in all cases. If it’s not a life, then it’s not a life even if the mother wanted to keep it.

This sort of thing needs to stop if we say its not a life

An ex-convict who killed a pregnant woman will be charged with two counts of murder in the death of the woman and her unborn baby.

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/01/19/north-carolina-man-charged-for-killing-pregnant-woman-baby/

How can this man be charged with the murder of an unborn child. But when the mother does it, its perfectly fine.

 

[wannaberocker]

Presumes facts not in evidence.



Not your business. Were I a woman in that situation and you attempted to stop me from terminating such a pregnancy I would regard that as a threat to my life and limb and I would respond accordingly, resulting in a very costly lesson to you in minding your own business. I speak for nobody else.



Who are you to dictate to others on such matters. MYOFB.

He spoke of parental authority. I don’t believe he was suggesting that he would randomly go up to an aborting stranger and physically stop her from getting an abortion.

 

[angelatc]

At no point is it every right ti KILL a baby.

Presumes facts not in evidence.



Not your business. Were I a woman in that situation and you attempted to stop me from terminating such a pregnancy I would regard that as a threat to my life and limb and I would respond accordingly, resulting in a very costly lesson to you in minding your own business. I speak for nobody else.



Who are you to dictate to others on such matters. MYOFB.

I read it differently - I read his post as that he didn't have the right to go out and kill the man who raped his daughter, so why should the innocent child die? But now I'm not sure I read it right.

 

[osan]

He spoke of parental authority.

If my 12 year old daughter was raped and she wanted out, off to Hoovers we go and that's the end of it. Likewise, if she said she wanted to keep it, so be it. You either respect the rights of others or you do not. There is no "sometimes" about it; that is not about rights but of privilege, which can be rescinded at any time.

I don’t believe he was suggesting that he would randomly go up to an aborting stranger and physically stop her from getting an abortion.

No material difference. He has no authority to force his raped daughter to have a child any more than he does over that of any randomly chosen stranger.

I have a very close friend who became pregnant at 22. She was loath to have an abortion and so managed to worry the pregnancy into oblivion. It was an act of will and it worked like a charm. I suppose she should be charged with murder?

You so-called "pro life" folks are failing catastrophically on this point of human liberty. To gripe about government and the state from the one side of your mouths and from the other call for them to charge with murder anyone getting an abortion is the height of blind hypocrisy. Doubly so for those who consider themselves to be "anarchist" or "agorist".

These abortion threads are so pointless... and here I am feeding one. Shame on me.

 

[JebSanderson]

You're right, you wouldn't take a "life" to solve the problem. She could though, unless you would physically stop her from doing so?

I sure as heck would do everything in my power, including physically stopping her, from murdering her child.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I agree with RP on a lot of things but his stance on abortion bothers me. Most people on here seem to agree with him so hopefully I'll get some good thought-provoking responses. Even if one believes that human life begins at conception and is personally against abortion I don't see how the government getting involved and banning it would be a good idea producing a positive outcome. Like with drugs, prostitution, gambling, anything that people want, making it illegal doesn't make it disappear it merely moves it underground. Banning abortion will not stop women from having them. But it would make abortions very dangerous and much more traumatizing. Keeping it legal and regulating it makes it a safe medical procedure. If abortion was banned there would presumably be an exception for victims impregnated because of rape. This loophole would certainly be abused since anyone wanting an abortion could try to claim this to get it done legally. I get why someone personally would be morally against abortion, I don't get wanting to force this moral belief onto everyone using legal measures. Can someone please give me a reasonable explanation why the the law should compromise the liberty of a fully grown women to do what she wants with her own body to protect the life something living inside her which for weeks doesn't even have a working brain?

Because any law having to do with "force of aggression" from murder to robbery will be meaningless in a society that does not define the start of life. Sure there were some great hypocrisies when the united states declared independence and made themselves a constitution based on "individual rights". Slavery existed when founders declared that freedom was inherit in all human beings.....but to go further with that topic : What defines a human being as a human being >>and when do they become sovereign?

I am against abortion doctors/clinics although I don't believe in punishing the mothers for making a poor choice to destroy the life of a human being.I believe humans begin at conception.

There has to be a basis for knowledge,a basis for law...logical basis for any of it to work...otherwise it just becomes a paradox. Our country is becoming a paradox because the people have gone so far away from basic principles and recognizing the value of all life(NOT selected life).

 

[Stupified]

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/01/19/north-carolina-man-charged-for-killing-pregnant-woman-baby/

How can this man be charged with the murder of an unborn child. But when the mother does it, its perfectly fine.

Yeah, that's a terrible duality, although I would chalk it up to the prosecutor trying to get the worst possible sentence for the prosecuted.

 

[wannaberocker]

Yeah, that's a terrible duality, although I would chalk it up to the prosecutor trying to get the worst possible sentence for the prosecuted.

Yeah, but this is not an isolated incident. This is generally how our legal system deals with cases where a pregnant woman is the victim.

A few years back I was reading a case of domestic violence, where a guy beat his pregnant girlfriend. She lost the baby as a result of the beating and the BF was charged with the murder of the unborn Child.

 

[Black Flag]

Again,

Using extreme examples to define common principles is a massive fallacy.

Unless you have a coherent defense of your principles that applies to the 95% of cases of abortion - where violence upon the mother is not an issue - your argument is futile when describing the extremes


Do not attempt calculus when you do not yet know how to add or subtract.

 

[kezt777]

Again,



Unless you have a coherent defense of your principles that applies to the 95% of cases of abortion - where violence upon the mother is not an issue - your argument is futile when describing the extremes

This is where I have an issue up in Canada tho. Because we do not have any laws regarding the death of a fetus if the mother is attacked (as in, cannot charge the attacker with anything related to harming the fetus, only the mother), many people have tried to pass a law called the Unborn Victims Act but it keeps getting shot down because pro-choice groups say it will make abortion illegal. That drives me crazy because we are talking about when a mother who is actively carrying a child is murdered, not a woman who chooses to go to a clinic for an abortion. The Act continuously has been voted down in past years, despite 4 or 5 heavily pregnant women being killed in as many years (at least 3 by their own husbands/boyfriends/baby daddies) because of the pro-choice movement. It's like we are constantly working against ourselves. Yes I have seen people refer to issues such as if a woman could be charged for attempting to kill her own fetus by falling down the stairs or whatever but that is pretty hard to prove. Having a person knife you in the stomach until your baby is dead and so are you is kinda obvious. But the Act never survives and that drives me crazy. Two of the women, at least, were less than a month away from giving birth. Their babies would have been viable had they been born that day (my son was born more than 2 months early and survived with very very very little intervention other than being kept warm), but their families could not see justice for the death of that baby - just the mother. It's a bit aggravating and sad. There needs to be some middle ground.

I wish so many women did not choose abortion, I believe life begins right away, but I am not going to force my beliefs upon someone else. But allowing pro-choice activists to influence the outcome of an Act designed for murder cases conducted by a third party does not sit well with me at all.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Again,

Using extreme examples to define common principles is a massive fallacy.

Unless you have a coherent defense of your principles that applies to the 95% of cases of abortion - where violence upon the mother is not an issue - your argument is futile when describing the extremes


Do not attempt calculus when you do not yet know how to add or subtract.

^^^Truth

 

[angelatc]

I really love when - in an argument with someone who does not share similar beliefs - pro-life people argue their stances by asserting their belief that a fetus is a child and therefore has the right to human life. Protip: If the other person also believed that... you wouldn't be arguing! Come up with something better than circular reasoning.

And I love it when a third party jumps in with a point that was totally not relevant to the conversation. The original poster asserted that if abortion was not legal, they would suddenly begin to mutilate themselves in a desperate attempt to eliminate their offspring. I was pointing out that history doesn't support that claim.