[Article] Overpopulation and the Right to Childbearing

jllundqu

Member
Joined
May 24, 2011
Messages
7,304
It is truly scary that these people actually exist. Eugenics is alive and well!

The concept of self-actualization and individual rights is gone.... The BORG have nothing in people like this.

http://politicalphilosopher.net/2015/04/03/featured-philosop-her-sarah-conly/

My most recent work has been on whether or not we have a right to have more than one child. The claim is that if growth in population seems sufficiently likely to harm the environment in a way that will cause present and future people to suffer greatly, we don’t have a right to have more than one child.

This will strike people as controversial, of course, since we generally think that childbearing is and should be a personal issue, one up to the parents to decide. Insofar as we do see moral constraints on childbearing, it is generally in reference to the particular welfare of the child who will be born—if we foresee that a child will have a miserable life, and the parents have the ability to avoid having that child, we may feel it is wrong to have that child. Even there, though, most people seem to think the parents have the right to have the child, even if morally they shouldn’t—no one is justified in stopping them. In my new book, One Child: Do We Have a Right to More? (Oxford University Press, forthcoming, 2015) I argue that the moral constraints on childbearing are broader than this picture suggests. Even if the child itself will be happy, there are occasions when parents do not have a right to have a child, and this means that the state can legitimately sanction them (in appropriate ways) for having one. Population pressure that threatens the welfare of others is one reason a state may legitimately interfere in what we normally think of as the personal choice as to how many children to have.

Rights are commonly believed to be grounded in either of two ways. (There are other theories of rights, but I think these two are the most widely accepted.) On the first view, rights may be grounded in interests. If we absolutely need something to have a decent life, many believe we then have a right to it. This kind of thinking lies behind the claims that we have a right to food, or to health care. I argue that even if we accept great need as a foundation for rights, childbearing doesn’t fit this picture. We can live very well, even if not exactly as we would wish, without children, as many people do. Having a child is not necessary to living a good life. However, since we do want the human race to continue, and since there is not reason to restrict childbearing to one group rather than another, we can say that equality gives us a claim to have one child–but no more.

A second theory of rights grounds them in our status as autonomous beings. Insofar as we have the capacity to reason and choose, and insofar as that capacity is what gives us (on this view) the value we have, our choices should be respected. Thus, we have a right to live in accordance with our own choices. My choices may not necessarily promote my interests, on this view, but they should still be respected as an expression of autonomy. However, even if we accept this reasoning, we know it has limits: our autonomy doesn’t give us the right to greatly harm others. This is generally accepted: we say we have the right to free speech, for example, but that we do not have a right to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater. On this view, it is not that we have to promote others’ welfare, but that a certain degree of harm to others is beyond what we have a right to do. If we are in danger of overpopulation that will severely harm others, we don’t have a right to have more than one child.

Are we in such a dangerous situation at present? It’ s hard to say. If the population will otherwise continue to rise as it has, then yes, the danger is certain. If enough people refrain from having children, or from having more than one child, then perhaps it will not be harmful for others to have more than one (although one might argue that they are then free riders on others’ restraint, and there is certainly a question whether they have a right to that.) I argue, though, that even when the danger is not certain, if there is sufficiently probability of great harm occurring through unrestrained childbirth we have no right to subject others to that risk.

It’s true that part of the problem is consumption—it’s not just our numbers, but the way some of us live that is so destructive. We have been extremely resistant to cutting back on consumption, though, while fertility rates are relatively responsive to economic and cultural pressure. And, if even if we did cut back on consumption, a sufficient rise in population would still have devastating consequences. In any case, even if population is not uniquely the cause of the environment destruction we are witnessing, that doesn’t mean it can be ignored. Your lighted match by itself may not burn the house down, but if you know that the house has been doused with gasoline, and you still toss in your match, you are responsible, even though you were not the sole causal factor in the conflagration.

Saying that you have no right to have a second child, though, does not mean any and all sanctions are legitimate. You don’t have the right to steal, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to torture you if you do. Forced abortions or sterilizations go beyond the legitimate means a state can take to discourage people from childbearing. The most palatable means we could take would be increasing costs of childbearing, by financial disincentives like extra tax burdens or fines. We know that at present costs play a role in how many children people have, and thus we have reason to think that this would be sufficiently effective. A sliding scale could avoid differential impacts on people of different income levels.

There are a number of issues in this policy that are controversial. The most significant of these, of course, is that it implies that we do not have an absolute right to control our bodies, including our reproductive capacities. We are familiar with the long struggle to obtain the legal right to abortion, and aware of the fact that much of the argument for that right rested on the fact that a woman should be able to control her own body. Since I am arguing that in fact you don’t have the right to do things with your body that significantly hurt other people, I undercut that general argument for control.

I don’t think my argument weakens the argument for abortion, though, or at least not in any foreseeable real-world situation. I think the strongest argument for abortion is that the fetus is not a person. Since the fetus is not a person it has no claim on us, and we do no one grave harm when we have an abortion. So, I don’t think abortion in the world we know violates rights or is wrong in any way. However, I have to admit that on my account it is at least imaginable that there could be circumstances in which a particular abortion would be morally wrong, so wrong that we would have no right to it. For example, we can imagine that a given pregnancy will result in a baby that we, in some impossible way, know will bring about enduring World Peace, and we also know that this peace won’t otherwise come about. I don’t think the woman in this case (typically) has the right to have an abortion. So, it does follow from what I say that the right to abortion is not absolute—there are situations in which other claims can override it. I don’t see, however, that there will be many, if any, such situations in the real world.

This is a controversial topic, for this and for other reasons discussed in the book. We don’t like giving up what we think of as rights, and particularly not in such a personal realm as childbearing. However, we need to remember that what might once have been harmless can, in the modern world, be extremely harmful. My goal is not so much to bring about state prohibitions of childbearing, which after all is pretty unlikely, as to promote the idea that when a population is the size that our is, and places the pressure on the environment that ours does, childbearing is no longer a private matter. What you do in terms of children has a great and lasting effect on other people. Sometimes people put this as a question of justice to future generations, but that is sadly over-optimistic: the effects of environmental degradation are being felt now, by present people, and will be felt even more by those who are now young as they age in a world in which population and consumption combine to destroy much of what makes the planet livable. We just don’t have a right to be that destructive.
 
Last edited:
How about if more of the grownups continue improving on preventing unwanted pregnancies?
 
Ironically, it is the poorest regions that have the most children. (Some suspect it is an evolutionary instinct to make sure enough offspring survive. When times are really tough, people have more children. They can help with the chores and family income and if one or two die of disease or starvation, there are additional offspring to take their place.)

If they really thought over-population was a problem, once again, the correct answer is liberty. With liberty comes prosperity. With prosperity comes declining reproductive rates. No moar government involved.
 
The simple and I believe libertarian solution would be to allow those who overbreed no claim on the resources of others.
 
Ironically, it is the poorest regions that have the most children.........................

Frankly, I am utterly unmoved by the TV ads of flyblown starving african infants with the voice over that little whoever is babymama's number seven and there is just not enough food to go around.............. My response is ya should have stopped at two. If I feed this one you will be back in a year with number eight. Best to let nature take its course over your way and spend my money here at home to adopt a puppy.

Bah Humbug and yes I like my animals far better than I do most people and all strangers.
 
The simple and I believe libertarian solution would be to allow those who overbreed no claim on the resources of others.
Actually, that sounds like a good solution for those that overbreed, underbreed, breed normally, or don't breed at all.
 
Unrestricted and unfettered pregnancy is simply something that is incompatible with a welfare state. Until the welfare state is abolished, controls will have to be tolerated on what some people think of as rights.

That's a typical resort to trying to solve a problem caused by big government with a solution executed by big government that will only cause more problems.
 
It is not the poor, sparsely populated areas that are of concern. It is a place like Japan. They have over 120 million people crammed into a place the size of California, and most of the land is uninhabitable and inarable. As creative as they are, they have forced on themselves a lifestyle that is unstustainable. They are not able to produce enough food for their own people, so they overfish waters of other nations and import food that is very expensive. They are not reproducing at a replacement level, so when the check comes due for all the people who will eventually retire, they will be in big trouble. They have insanely long lifespans there.

Our planet can sustain a much larger population than we currently have. You could fit every person on the planet in the state of Texas. Unfortunately, big government has imposed regulations that penalize generating food, income, and shelter for everyone. This planet has resources to be able to sustain more people, but government gets in the way.
 
It is truly scary that these people actually exist. Eugenics is alive and well!

I share you're dismay with this, but "these people" are literally everywhere. It seems there is a ingrained human need to control what other people can and cannot do.
 
It is truly scary that these people actually exist. Eugenics is alive and well!

The concept of self-actualization and individual rights is gone.... The BORG have nothing in people like this.

http://politicalphilosopher.net/2015/04/03/featured-philosop-her-sarah-conly/

That is one of the most dangerously ignorant articles I have ever read. How in hell does he or anyone else know whether a fetus is a so-called "person"? How does he know whether a fetus has subjective experiences and what their nature might be such that they are not valid?

What a scummy, ignorant, I'll-adept chump.
 
.................... They have insanely long lifespans there.

..............................
As long as you are not paying their bills that is not your concern. BTW, it will not be possible for the civilised world to feed every baby africa and the moslems can breed. Eventually THEY will EAT us if we let them.
 
BTW These are the people in academia that teach burgeoning young minds...

Let that sink in.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in my lifetime, we saw some type of 'one child policy' in the US (as well as expansion of the already documented forced sterilization of the 'undesirables' as Sanger called them).
 
Unrestricted and unfettered pregnancy is simply something that is incompatible with a welfare state. Until the welfare state is abolished, controls will have to be tolerated on what some people think of as rights.

I hope this was total sarcasm, given your name on these forums.
 
It is not the poor, sparsely populated areas that are of concern. It is a place like Japan. They have over 120 million people crammed into a place the size of California, and most of the land is uninhabitable and inarable. As creative as they are, they have forced on themselves a lifestyle that is unstustainable. They are not able to produce enough food for their own people, so they overfish waters of other nations and import food that is very expensive. They are not reproducing at a replacement level, so when the check comes due for all the people who will eventually retire, they will be in big trouble. They have insanely long lifespans there.

Our planet can sustain a much larger population than we currently have. You could fit every person on the planet in the state of Texas. Unfortunately, big government has imposed regulations that penalize generating food, income, and shelter for everyone. This planet has resources to be able to sustain more people, but government gets in the way.

Japan has a declining population (as you mentioned)...because they are so rich and the infant mortality rates so low, they have less kids. You can show a direct correlation between child mortality and birthrates, and a negative correlation between wealth of a nation and their child mortality rates. It's evolution...we as a species have higher birthrates where we have higher death rates for kids...it's so we have 2 survive to adulthood to replace ourselves. The growing population is due exclusively to longer life spans, not birth rates. The world hit peak child long ago. Watch the video I posted in this thread.

Japan's retirees will be fine...they just won't be as rich as they had hoped on the social security they get. Remember, their incomes are still high as shit compared to most countries. They just need to adjust to a slightly lower standard of living in old age is all. Or they need to work for longer. No big problem there.
 
Last edited:
As long as you are not paying their bills that is not your concern. BTW, it will not be possible for the civilised world to feed every baby africa and the moslems can breed. Eventually THEY will EAT us if we let them.

Their birthrates are dropping as they get richer. And increased yields in crops due to higher technologies will make them all able to be fed, assuming their governments don't slow down the process too much. Starvation is going down, not up.
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Voluntarist

Unrestricted and unfettered pregnancy is simply something that is incompatible with a welfare state. Until the welfare state is abolished, controls will have to be tolerated on what some people think of as rights.


I hope this was total sarcasm, given your name on these forums.

I suspect it is not, and he is right. If the welfare state is to exist, then human rights MUST be curtailed. Why? Because the two are fundamentally incompatible where the tacit assumption underlying the existence of the state is the guaranty of survival.

In the "real" world, those people who cannot support one more mouth to feed either choose to limit their own numbers, seek the charity of others to help them, watch their offspring die, give up said issue for adoption, or sacrifice themselves so their issue might survive. That last bit is not likely to meet with success, BTW.

In the second case, charity will go only so far, beyond which those who give will have to limit their generosity for the sake of their own survival. The third option speaks for itself, of course, as does the fourth. Given enough time for this reality to sink in, people would return to natural sense. Furthermore, given the available technological conveniences for preventing undesired pregnancies, those who could not afford another mouth to feed would likely avail themselves of the easy ability to limit their issue. Those who choose otherwise pay the price, as had always been the case prior to the advent of the idiocy of the so-called "welfare state". This more natural arrangement preserves the rights of men optimally, whereas the welfare state must perforce diminish those rights if it is itself to remain viable. That is because there is only so much of other people's resources that is available for the welfare recipient.

When one examines the bare structure of such welfare institutions as energy systems, stripping away the noise of the window dressing that seemingly differentiates one nation from another, a stark and glaring truth emerges. The sourcing, distribution, and disposition of the energy of such systems is precisely the same between them, leaning heavily in favor of increasing entropy as the recipient-class grows in proportion to the supporting-class, such growth being virtually guaranteed without the intercession of force to curtail it.

What happens to an electrical grid when the load upon it grows beyond the capacity of the generation source to provide? Voltages drop. This cannot be avoided as it is pure elementary physics that determines this reality. Increase the load and eventually the stress on the generator will cause physical failure for all the reasons well known to electrical engineers. It is no different with a welfare system. Over-tax the provider-class and it will inevitably collapse, bringing the system to a sudden and very violent halt. This is why fundamental pragmatism dictates that the so-called "state" disparage at least some of the rights of the individual, which is alone sufficient to assess a welfare state as morally repugnant and invalid. In theory, the very purpose of such a state violates fundamental realities of this world, one centrally important element of that reality being that people cannot have their cakes and eat it, too - all cost-free. This alone demonstrates the mere notion of a welfare state as pure clinical insanity.

Futhermore, the welfare state is self-contradicting through its internal inconsistency. It (at least tacitly) asserts that all humans have "rights" such as the right to survive, the right to food, the right to (look to the right and cough, AHEM) healthcare, and so forth. The underlying basis of this is the presumption that these rights are unalienable and universal, which is the bedrock upon which those who administer such states claim the authority to use force in the redistribution of wealth. This irrevocably implies the existence of an authority above and beyond the state itself (God? Banish the thought and burn the witches!), even though that selfsame state will incredibly deny it (more barking madness). The state then, in the spirit of the ghost of Alinsky, ignores reality and all logic and reason as it wields its chainsaw and does a hack-job upon those rights that are incompatible NOT with humanity's interests, but that of the authority of the state itself. The "state" has conjured a demonic system of self-destruction, calls it "the greater good", and must tailor the rights of men with a dull and rusty ax in order to best assure that the system in question is perpetuated in the name of an impossible objective: the survival of all men. And part of the strategy for achieving the goal is to murder some of those men whose survival is supposed to be the paramount concern of the state which murders them. This inconvenient and ugly little detail must, of course, be ignored, but there are those who refuse to look the other way. Therefore, the "state" must then find a means of explaining away their murder. They do this through the assumption that a fetus is not a human being. They COULD be right, but they have not proven the case. Rather, they operate on the ASSUMPTION that they are right. How convenient.

At the end of the day, the purpose of the welfare state is not the survival of all men, but the survival of its own authority over those men.

Given all this, we are individually faced with a decision to answer the question: are human rights real or are they not? If they are, are they equal or are they differing between men? If equal, then the welfare state must be abolished and kept in the ground where it belongs because there is NO valid basis for curtailing those rights, especially the first right, which is the claim to life itself. If differing, how do we know that they are; how do we know how they differ; who decides; what is the standard of judgment; and so on down a virtually endless line of questions that arise invariably as the result of the previous answers given.

I do believe I have just demonstrated the invalidity of the welfare state; that I have just completely crushed the concept for all time. The only thing left is for men to act in proper accord with the greater truths of physical and moral reality. I will not hold my breath in wait.
 
Last edited:
Saying that a person has no right to decide how many children he or she wants because of hazards on environment, over population etc, assumes the premise that man exists for the sake of state.
 
Back
Top