Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Abortion

[AzNsOuLjAh27]

It should read "Pro Tyrannical Prohibition" vs "Pro Self-Ownership" ...

We have a nice compromise going of leaving it up to the states, but if I see you fetus nuts gang up on this issue one more time, I'll vote Libertarian over Ron Paul!

Bump

 

[OKRonPaul]

I guess i could start a similar thread, but make the two options

I believe abortions should be performed in a regulated manner by licensed medical professionals

I believe abortions should be performed by whoever, wherever, with whatever device is handy

same options as this poll offers, just worded differently.

 

[Tdcci]

This is really a debate in whether you want abortion to happen in a backalley with a closehanger or in a sanitary abortion clinic with legally liable doctors.

No it isn't, but if this were a debate of that sort I would want the backalley, the dirty conditions make for a great deterrant, plus, it's harder for girls to hide it from their parents if there is a screwup. The baby's chances of living are higher, the woman's chance of living are lower. Karmic Justice, What's not to like?

 

[WilliamC]

I was hardly confusing you for someone else, for it was you who made this statement:

Why does god let mutated life even start to begin with?

Asking why he would allow it to occur at least makes the implication that you are judging their existence to be lesser than yourself.

I implied no such thing, I merely asked a good faith question.

Why, if god is in charge of things, does he allow mutated human life to even start to begin with?

Is he somehow unhappy with the normal chromosomal compliment of wild-type humans and feels the need to mess up certain individuals from time to time?

As to your statements regarding the issue of a soul, I was merely explaining the Christian beleif that life has an inherent value, beyond any of ones physical characteristics. While I can respect that you have different views, this doesnt really have anything to do with my point that under a Christian belief system, someone with downs syndrome has just as much value as someone without it.

Individuals with chromosomal abnormalities like Downs syndrome should have equal rights under the law as other humans, yes.

Why does that imply that I do not think they have as much value as a non-afflicted person?

The value of a person to me results from their behavior, not from their genetics.

Finally, as to your comment that that such fetuses "suffer for sins they did not commit," I already addressed part of this earlier, in regards to the miscarriage point you raised.

And from what you wrote it sounds to me like god is punishing innocent unborns for sins that they did not commit.

After all, if I had the power that god is supposed to, I wouldn't have ever let mammals evolve internal gestation.

Keep the fetus in an egg until it's born, and leave the poor mothers body alone.

Much cleaner and removes all of these troubling issues surrounding pregnancy.

But I'm just a dumb guy, so what do I know about these things?

Women actually claim to enjoy being pregnant, go figure.

And beyond this, suffering in itself should not be viewed as being a punishment whenever it happens. The central figure of Christianity suffered greatly, yet committed no sins and thus would not have "deserved punishment." Its my view that, just like he was rewarded for suffering through the unjust treatment, so too will those who suffer unjustly today.

Personally I see no redeeming value to suffering. I would prefer that there be less suffering in the world, not more.

I dont say any of this in order to change your mind, but merely to explain the general Christian thinking behind it, hopefully in a way that makes sense. I personally think reasonable people can disagree on issues like this, and I have no doubt that this can be the case here as well.

Well neither am I trying to change your mind, merely trying to understand someone who thinks differently than myself.

If all I ever did was to talk to people who agreed with me I'd never learn anything new about myself.

Again, as far as the abortion issue, I agree with Ron Paul that it should be decided at the State and local level, not at a Federal level.

No Federally mandated abortion on demand, no Federally mandated zero tolerance for any abortions under any circumstances.

Human development, like human life in general, is never going to be perfect, so it is obvious that sometimes there are no perfect solutions to human problems.

 

[WilliamC]

Theocrat, you should link (not directly embed) those pictures, for the squeamish.

Google images of teratology if you want to see examples of why some abortions should be allowed.

 

[QCB79]

There is not now nor will there ever be a resolution on this issue. There will always be a divide even if we all agree on every other issue. But, if you haven't been in the position of a woman who's has had or has considered having an abortion then you're just a bystander with a judgement.

In a fantasy world everything would be perfect, the woman would be a flawless princess and the man would be prince charming and they would get married and have children and live happily ever after but this is reality not fantasy and fact is people make mistakes, sometimes big ones. I don't think it's other people job to sit back and judge everyone else until they walk a mile in their shoes, one reason i support RP...Individual freedom even if i don't agree with his view on abortion

 

[MsDee]

NOT your body, NOT a choice. You own your own body, but not the body of your child. Make no mistake, the state does not want to touch your [sexual disease ridden] body, but it has an interest in protecting the life of its citizens.

Bravo, very mature of you. How old are you? 12?

While many pro-lifers are religious, it is unfair to say that all of them are religious. I am not religious, but I have a respect for human life, and it is a matter of human life and the rule of law, not morality. Strawman.

Who said all? Perhaps you need to adjust your vision and reread.

You can believe whatever you want as long as you don't abort. If the child decides, at a later date he wants to be aborted he can commit suicide. Don't make that CHOICE for him.

Oh Okay, I can believe whatever I want, but I still have to abide by the rules based on someone else's belief of what constitutes life or not? I suppose you're also against gay marriage? LOL

See, the point is no matter if the government or even the state brands this as illegal, it will happen anyone. Back alley abortions and traveling to another country (Mexico) to have it done. It's like when Prohibition was put in place. People still bought liquor, they formed speakeasies. Agree with it or not, the law isn't going to stop someone from doing what they want. We don't even have to look at the past to determine that, look at today.
I'll half admit, this is my own fault, I am a previous democrat who only registered Rep. for Ron Paul and really I don't agree with alot of the nutty Republican ideas. I just happen to believe Ron Paul is the right man for the job. Fear not! I will soon be moving to the Independents.

 

[Kade]

It should read "Pro Tyrannical Prohibition" vs "Pro Self-Ownership" ...

We have a nice compromise going of leaving it up to the states, but if I see you fetus nuts gang up on this issue one more time, I'll vote Libertarian over Ron Paul!

Haha, nice. +10

 

[jmdrake]

Remember that 85% of the abortions performed are on lower income women, the same people who traditionally vote for big government candidates. Not to be too crude, but abortion works to eliminate future enemies of the free market.

Thank you Margaret Sanger for expressing your eugenicist viewpoint. Glad Ron Paul doesn't roll that way.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[A rope leash]

Legal immorality

I've come to think of abortion as basically immoral. It's pretty irresponsible to be getting pregnant if you don't want to be in this day and age. The embryo is a probable human being if left undisturbed. To remove it is just about the ultimate insult to your own species. Nearly everyone that is alive wants to stay alive, and nobody asked to be born in the first place, so why can't we extend these givens to the fetus? I understand that pregnancy is difficult, but if the child can be reard by adoptive parents, morality would dictate that as the proper course. It's called taking responsibility for your actions. Sure, you can say that a person shouldn't be saddled with an inferior offspring, or should not be forced to have her rapists' child, and these things are morally negotiable. Not every aborted child was destined to become a burden or criminal. I once advised a drunken friend of mine to abort her baby since she was in no shape to raise a child. That kid is the greatest, and almost grown now. I feel that abortion screws up spacetime continuity as it applies to human lifetimes. It's no wonder we're so screwed up...some that should be here are not. Who's to say we didn't abort a saviour?

That said, I think abortion should be legal, and as rare as possible. All sorts of immoral shit is illegal. What kills me is that the law lets a woman remove her fertilized egg, but wont let me smoke a joint...

 

[amberj]

My personal opinion is that it is fine as long as it is done very early. Although what the cut-off time should be, I have no clue. I have debated that issue in my own mind often. On principle I would say that it is wrong at any stage, but realistically and practically, there should be some leeway for having a choice early on.

 

[Esor]

I'm pro-life. I've never had any internal debate about the issue. It is as clear as day, for me. A fetus is a living being, killing it would be murder in my eyes.

However, everything becomes blurry when trying to decide the differences in trimesters or if the mother's life is in danger. That is why I support state's rights on the issue.

 

[hairball]

The poll is loaded with emotional stuff that is designed to ignite passion, not reason. I choose pro-chice, as the final choice is to rest with the woman. A woman has ultimate choice over what happens in her body, or we use force to usurp that, and make ourselves tyrants of a person we do not know, to bend her to our will.

One of the more hateful things I was forced to do was work protection at a Planned Parenthood clinic. You would get all the ugly, nasty Ultra-Religious lunatics parading with baby dolls nailed on a big cross parading and haranguing the women going in and out. They did not care that many of these women were going in for pre-natal care, they would get the same abuse. It was down the street from where I lived in Glendale, CA, and after seeing this scene for a while, and the emotionally distraught women being harrassed without the local cops doing anything but making sure things didn't get 'out of hand'. I was so disgusted with the whole thing that I got myself and some friends, including my girlfriend to volunteer to watch the doors, and keep the women coming in and out from being touched. It was one of the first times I had seen people at their ugliest, and it made me sad to think that I sometimes enjoyed putting an elbow in someones throat as I guided a woman up the steps for her pre-natal appointment.

The cops took things a bit more serriously when a woman's baby was killed by the abortion protesters in Alabama. They enteated her so vigorously to NOT abort the baby (never mind she was going in for low-cost pre-natal care) that she aborted the baby pretty much on the steps of the clinic.

Life is not so absolute that you take away choice, and the consequences of that choice.

 

[IowaGarrett]

I challenge ANY pro-abortion/choice supporter to try to debase the argument I have established on this thread. Not one of you have been able to touch my arguments yet.

 

[Kade]

I challenge ANY pro-abortion/choice supporter to try to debase the argument I have established on this thread. Not one of you have been able to touch my arguments yet.

I decimated it a while back. Sorry.

 

[IowaGarrett]

Sorry, pal, but I can't even find a thread where you adressed me.

Why dont you help me out here.

I decimated it a while back. Sorry.

 

[Tdcci]

A woman has ultimate choice over what happens in her body,

Sure, but does she have the ultimate choice over what happens to the body of her child? That is the true question. Abortionists will argue the life of the woman is more valuable than the life of the child's, because of her sex, age, or autonomy. Libertarians will argue the child is an individual who deserves equal protection.

The poll is loaded with emotional stuff that is designed to ignite passion, not reason.

or we use force to usurp that, and make ourselves tyrants of a person we do not know, to bend her to our will.

In the second quote You just loaded your argument with "emotional stuff that is designed to ignite passion, not reason".

One of the more hateful things I was forced to do was work protection at a Planned Parenthood clinic. You would get all the ugly, nasty Ultra-Religious lunatics parading with baby dolls nailed on a big cross parading and haranguing the women going in and out ... It was one of the first times I had seen people at their ugliest, and it made me sad to think that I sometimes enjoyed putting an elbow in someones throat as I guided a woman up the steps for her pre-natal appointment.

NOT all pro-lifers are religious. Do you have to be religious to value and respect human life?! Your use of violence does not make yourself any better, they were just exercising their right to speech and religion.

 

[hairball]

Sure, but does she have the ultimate choice over what happens to the body of her child? That is the true question. Abortionists will argue the life of the woman is more valuable than the life of the child's, because of her sex, age, or autonomy. Libertarians will argue the child is an individual who deserves equal protection.


NOT all pro-lifers are religious. Do you have to be religious to value and respect human life?! Your use of violence does not make yourself any better, they were just exercising their right to speech and religion.

All the ones that have been brutal little thugs have been religious. I find the most desperately savage and nasty people to be religious. Except for O'Hare, most atheists are not such a nasty bill of goods.

I posit that the woman has ultimate jurisdiction of whatever is in her body. Noone has any more right to tell HER to have it than to tell her to kill it.

My use of violence was ONLY in responce to thier level of violence. Impedeing another person or myself, in lawfully entering a building earns the person an incentive to remove themselves from my path. I am protecting my person, and the person entering, and you are conveniently ignoring that I did this for women being hassled who were getting their children checked on. They were going to have their child, they merely needed a low cost facility to do the pre-natal stuff. These zealots cared not, and they cared less if they injured anybody expressing their wish to use FORCE to keep a person from entering a building. Exercizing a right of religion and free speech does ont involve grabbing my arm or not allowing me or the lady from opening the door.

That was assault, and we reacted accordingly in protecting ourselves. We had EVERY right. They had no right to assault us.

 

[WilliamC]

I challenge ANY pro-abortion/choice supporter to try to debase the argument I have established on this thread. Not one of you have been able to touch my arguments yet.

One word.

Teratology.

 

[IowaGarrett]

Thats laughable. Go right ahead with this line of argument. I'm seriously daring you.

One word.

Teratology.